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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #885157 -


"In 1998, guns were used to murder 4 people in New Zealand, 19 in Japan, 54 in England and Wales, 57 in Australia, 151 in Canada, 373 in Germany and 11,798 in the United States."

This illustrates one of the problems with the statistics usually utilized by anti-self-defense zealots--they almost always choose the least informative or important stats. The writer hasn't done enough research to know that overall crime in Britain (for example) now exceeds the crime rate in the U.S. Instead, the writer operates on the peculiar premise that a rape, robbery, or assault committed with brute force or a knife is somehow less harmful to the victim. In fact, those crimes are more likely to lead to injury of the victim, because the victim is tempted to resist. Isn't it obvious that the total violent crime rate is more relevant to the average person than the percentage of violent crimes committed with any particular tool? Have you ever heard anyone say, "Thank God the criminal who raped and murdered my daughter only used a knife. It would have been tragic if they had used a gun"? On the other hand, we have heard many, many people say, "If only she had a gun available, she would have been able to save herself and her children." When you look at total violent crime, the U.S. is in the middle of the pack, and some of the countries that heavily restrict firearms ownership, such as Britain, have some of the highest violent crime rates. Other countries such as Switzerland, with universal availability of firearms, are quite safe. See the Univ. of Leiden, Netherlands http://rulj287.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/ for an international crime rate comparison study.



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"Stone and Sea" - Saltheart


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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #885230 -



"According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the rate of firearm deaths among American children under age 15 is almost 12 times higher than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. "

It depends what the meaning of "combined" is...

In a statement like this, the word "combined" is meant to suggest to you that the rates from the other 25 countries are ADDED together, and that, oh my GOD, you'd still have to multiply this by 12 to come up to the U.S. rate. In other words, if all the other 25 countries each had an identical rate of .1 per 100,000, the "combined" rate of the other countries would be 2.5 per 100,000. This is the common interpretation of the word "combined." However, this is NOT the way the data from the other countries is "combined" in this report. The data is "combined" by taking a population-weighted average

One glance at the chart of firearms related deaths shows that the rate data from other countries was not added together for comparison to the U.S. rate, as the common meaning of the word "combined" suggests. This bar chart shows the firearms death rates for all 26 countries in the study. It is obvious that if one adds the rates of all the other countries (added the lengths of bars), the rates of all the other countries added together would be much greater than the U.S. rate, without multiplying the "other countries" rate by anything, let alone a factor of 12.

"Combined" in this report means the data from the other countries was put in one big pot - the number of deaths from the other 25 countries in the study was all added together and divided by the populations of the 25 other countries all added together. This produces a population-weighted average. Here's the vague way the report puts it - "Rates for the United States were compared with rates based on pooled data for the other 25 countries."

The report also contains the sentence "The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged <15 years was nearly 12 times higher than among children in the other 25 countries combined." This contorted sentence takes the lie two-thirds of the way there. It's meant to provide the basis for a sound bite that more "clearly" implies that it's an adding of rates, not a type of averaging that is being used - while providing just enough ambiguity to avoid appearing like a blatant distortion to the scientifically trained readers of the study.

Now one may say that, even with this distortion corrected, things still look kind of bad for the U.S. - a 12 times higher juvenile firearms related death rate than a population-weighted average of the next 25 industrialized countries. But when you dig a little deeper, you see that there is still a barrel full of distortions in THIS figure.

High murder rate countries excluded
The report claims to have used an unbiased method of choosing countries to include in the study. However the first thing one notices is that all the countries in the world with a murder rate higher than the U.S. (with the exceptions of Northern Ireland and Taiwan) have somehow been excluded from the study. For example, South Africa (about an 11 times higher murder rate than the U.S.), Russia, Brazil, Mexico, Columbia, and the Philippines - all somehow didn't make the cut of countries to be included in the study. The criteria for inclusion, in the words of the study, is "all countries classified in the high-income group with populations > 1 million ... that provided complete data". None of the countries listed above had an excuse for being excluded on population or GNP grounds - all have populations > 1 million, and all have GNPs higher than several other countries included in the study. I guess the data from these high murder rate countries wasn't "complete" enough.





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"Stone and Sea" - Saltheart


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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: LordMorham]
    #885245 -

oh yeah

The original CDC report is at

ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Publications/mmwr/wk/mm4605.pdf

let's see

the meaning of "MILITIA"
the meaning of "IS"
the meaning of "THE PEOPLE" <- interesting that this list makes a coherent statement.. isn't it?
the meaning of "COMBINED"

why is it that in order to assemble any facts that support your ludicrous claims you liberals allways need to change the meaning of common words?



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"Stone and Sea" - Saltheart


Edited by LordMorham (09/16/02 11:10 AM)

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #885596 -

Alex, you can't possibly be as numb as you appear. I can only assume your are being deliberately obtuse.

It doesn't matter if it's a book, a news program, a documentary, or a web page. Post the source to your (in my opinion) rediculous claims and foolish beliefs or be prepared to be asked each and every time. It's commom courtesy. If you have no source, at least state when it's your opinion.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #886168 -

The main problem I have with the right to bear arms is that so many luvdemshrooms types are the most outspoken proponents of it.

  :grin: 

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #886636 -

luvdem, try and improve the intelligence of your posts instead of saying "Can you show me a link". That way I might consider taking you seriously. I'm afraid just saying "Give me a link" instead of offering any evidence whatsoever (apart from linking us to NRA sites) makes me consider you a waste of time.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: hongomon]
    #886956 -

In reply to:
The main problem I have with the right to bear arms is that so many luvdemshrooms types are the most outspoken proponents of it.


Fortunately for you, many people still believe in their rights.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #886960 -

In reply to:
luvdem, try and improve the intelligence of your posts instead of saying "Can you show me a link".


Now that is funny.

If your so confident in your sources, and in what you believe, back it up. I do so. Many others do so. What makes you feel that your "knowledge" is so vast and superior to others? And to say all my links go to NRA sites is a stupid as just about anything else you've said in these forums. But lets asume what you say is true. At least I post my links and sources rather than just pulling them out of my ass.

Or is it that you realize you have no ground to stand on?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #887442 -

At least I post my links and sources rather than just pulling them out of my ass.

Unfortunately you don't. And I'm afraid doing a google search for 2 minutes until you find an article you agree with does not constitute research. Intelligence is reading from many sources and making your own interpretation, not simply saying "This page on the internet says this so it must be true". That is the way of the moron.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #888048 -

You are a funny little boy. If you're an example of the level of education in your country, I feel bad for all of you.

I have no doubt the "way of the moron" is the only way you know.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #889401 -

Not taking sides but "the way of the moron" is fuckin funny.

I consider myself a militia.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #893611 -

Alex,Alex,Alex can you not read "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state,the right of the people to keep and bear arms,shall not be infringed."The people,the people,the people.If you think the people means the militia,who the hell are the people enumerated in the rest of the Bill Of Rights.Did you get a zero in reading comprehension?Obviously you don't have a copy of the Constitution.PM me and i'll be glad to send you an electronic version;However,You'll have to get your own 3 RD grader to explain it to you.The words are in front of you."...THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS..."


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Well...Maybe just a little.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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