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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #864267 - 09/04/02 08:53 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So why are you so keen on taking away Saddams freedom for something he "might" do?

So now you change the subjet to somthing completely unrelated. For the record I don't want to take away his freedom. I want him killed and democracy installed in place of his tyranical regime of terror. Iraq is officially at war with Israel. I say, lets destroy them for that, and for gassing the Kurds, and financing terrorist attacks in Jerusalem (conclusivly proved), and for being a hostile dictatorship just one year away from having nuclear weapons.

Now back to the subject at hand. If a postal worker was so inclined he could make a bomb and blow up his work just like anyone else. Gun control does not prevent violent crime. It has been proven it displaces it and increases it.

Remember when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

MOLON LABE!!!


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (09/04/02 08:55 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #864290 - 09/04/02 09:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

That's cool. I just don't want my kids lives dependent on a couple of students opening fire around him. I want him in a country like England where school shootings havn't happened since the gun control laws were tightened.

Are you aware that their rate of violent crime is now the greatest of all industrialized nations. It has occurred since their gun control laws were tightened as well. If your kids are in England they have a greater chance of being raped or otherwise violently victimized than if they're in the USA. Nothing like unarmed kids to rape, right?

Just curious, where do you live? You realy seem to love the UK from all the praise...


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlineuno
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #864640 - 09/05/02 04:12 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You are absolutely right luvdemshrooms!!! I'm 150% sure that my friend that was robbed a few hours ago by gunpoint in his own apartment totally agrees with you!!! When the guy stuck the gun in his face and cocked back the trigger I bet the first thing that ran through my best friends mind was, "Thank god we live in a country where this wonderful person can make a living and own a gun!"
I'm sure his opinion stayed equally as happy for our gun right when he got pistol whipped in the mouth several times and was beaten with a fist at said gun point. What a great and glorious night that must have been for him! Let's all take a moment to praise America's innovative(though most would call completely insane, but wtf do they know?) gun laws!

*Do not even try to make the argument that he should have had a gun at the ready. He was in his living room, 2 ft from the door when they busted in. If you can somehow rationlise this as being OK, please let me know... I've been grilling myself on it all night. If those guys DID NOT have a gun, imagine how the situation would have been different. Most people can handle a knife. I'm eagerly awaiting your response as well as all the other gun nuts out there.


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- uno


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Offlineuno
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #864642 - 09/05/02 04:16 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Read my list of quotes to find out what the definition of militia was at the time...
Every able bodied man.

Just because the definition of militia has changed over the years doesn't matter. The founders repeatedly said it was a right of the people. Or don't facts matter to you?

So did the court...
'The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense . . . [and that] when called for service, these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.
U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) US Supreme Court

But don't let facts stand in your way.





Gasp!!! Is this saying that women aren't allowed to wield guns?! This goes in direct opposition of your earlier statement about women needing guns against bigger muggers. Am I simply misinterpereting the written word? I definitely would not be the first.


--------------------
- uno


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Offlineuno
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #864646 - 09/05/02 04:28 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Why do you think I shouldn't be allowed to keep my 12 guage under the bed that I use for home defence and sleep well at night? Why don't you thnk I should be allowed to use that same shotgun to shoot clay disks and rabbits and deer when they're in season? Why do you hate my freedom so much?




Alex, please correct me if I'm wrong, but all of this part of his statement is legal in England.


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- uno


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Offlineuno
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #864659 - 09/05/02 04:35 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Basically, you want to take away my freedom because of what someone else *might* do. At least that's an honest answer...





Don't you want to invade Iraq in case they might develop WoMD?


--------------------
- uno


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OfflineWinky
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2nd amendment [Re: uno]
    #865095 - 09/05/02 09:44 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"Most people can handle a knife"

Most surprised, unarmed people CANNOT handle two knife-wielding men. Your firend was jumped and beaten and he would have been whether or not guns existed in the world.

By the way, gun prohibition (if that's what you're getting at here) would likely spawn an even larger black market than we already have. Government laws cannot change the laws of supply and demand (and there IS a large demand for guns in America which is mostly satisfied by legal sales). The government cannot enforce drug prohibition, and it would not be able to enforce gun prohibition in America either. Such prohibition would only ensure that people who are willing to break the law have guns.

Guns aren't the problem, assholes are, and America has a lot of them.

-WInky


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OfflineWinky
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2nd amendment [Re: uno]
    #865178 - 09/05/02 10:28 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"Gasp!!! Is this saying that women aren't allowed to wield guns?! This goes in direct opposition of your earlier statement about women needing guns against bigger muggers. Am I simply misinterpereting the written word? I definitely would not be the first."

Although the ruling does not mention women, I do not see a prohibition on women or old people from owning guns as you seem to believe was implied.

-Winky


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OfflineWinky
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: uno]
    #865211 - 09/05/02 10:43 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"Don't you want to invade Iraq in case they might develop WoMD?"

This is a fallacious argument:
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

-Winky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Winky]
    #865275 - 09/05/02 11:27 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Those ad hominem webpages seem to have attracted so many people lately... :smile:

The point was..Rail Gun is all for attacking Saddam because he might pose a threat. Now god forbid, but if Rail Gun loses his job tomorrow and he gets to brooding while cradling that AK-47 and decides to go down the local Macdonalds for some payback then he poses a threat to me. The only way I have of neutralising that threat is removing those guns from him.

Sure guns would be good if you could only give them to people who never lose their temper and never have any mental problems in life. Unfortunately that isn't possible. And i'm sorry but a deranged asshole with an AK-47 is a fuck of a lot more deadly than an asshole with a baseball bat. 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #865282 - 09/05/02 11:30 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

If a postal worker was so inclined he could make a bomb and blow up his work just like anyone else. Gun control does not prevent violent crime.

I'll take that risk. If there's someone deranged enough to spend months acquiring explosives and studying how to build a bomb we're talking one in several million. Usually by the time they've worked out how you make a bomb they've got another job.

The risk I'm not prepared to take is a postal worker who has just been sacked and is feeling emotionally devastated walking into his home and seeing on the wall enough guns and ammo to wipe out half a town.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: uno]
    #865328 - 09/05/02 11:56 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So if they crooks had a knife and stabbed him, that would make you hate knives?
In reply to:

Most people can handle a knife.



Sure they can. Maybe you and Alex can. I'm partially disabled with almost no balance. I'll take a gun thanks. So will many women I know. And what if three or more guys assaulted your friend with knives. Can you or even the almighty Alex handle several attackers? No-one I know has ever claimed a gun was a magic answer for all situations. How might the situation have been different? Well if the scumbag who hurt your friend had a knife, perhaps he might have thought he could handle him and only found out midway through the struggle that he couldn't. Or perhaps while the scumbag was distracted he could have gotten to a gun. There are many ways this senario could have ended differently, some better, some worse. I don't know your friend but I'm glad he wasn't killed.
In reply to:

Gasp!!! Is this saying that women aren't allowed to wield guns?! This goes in direct opposition of your earlier statement about women needing guns against bigger muggers. Am I simply misinterpereting the written word? I definitely would not be the first.



Yes you are. If the quote had been mine then you'd have a point. Since I merely pasted previously written words, this comment of yours was just silly.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #865341 - 09/05/02 12:06 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

I'll take that risk. If there's someone deranged enough to spend months acquiring explosives and studying how to build a bomb we're talking one in several million. Usually by the time they've worked out how you make a bomb they've got another job.



You can pick up diesel fuel and amminium nitrate in about 15 minutes. Those are the ingrediants used by McVeigh. A internet search will turn up the instructions in a matter of minutes. So now the guy with the bomb can kill hundreds at one shot. Yes.... sounds like a better idea to me.

In reply to:

The risk I'm not prepared to take is a postal worker who has just been sacked and is feeling emotionally devastated walking into his home and seeing on the wall enough guns and ammo to wipe out half a town.



Yes... much better he build a bomb or drive a car through a schoolyard full of kids and takes out several of them. I'm sure the childrens parents will feel much better knowing the dead kids weren't killed with a gun.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineWinky
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #865420 - 09/05/02 01:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:


The point was..Rail Gun is all for attacking Saddam because he might pose a threat. Now god forbid, but if Rail Gun loses his job tomorrow and he gets to brooding while cradling that AK-47 and decides to go down the local Macdonalds for some payback then he poses a threat to me. The only way I have of neutralising that threat is removing those guns from him.





Perhaps you are saying that Rail Gun is a hypocrite, and that's fine, but the issue of going after Saddam is unrelated to state control of individuals' freedom to own firearms (aside from illustrating RailGuns hypocrisy that is). I personally am not educated enough on Iraq to take a stand on the subject.

If it were possible to remove guns from the populace, perhaps it would make things safer. Mass murderers would make bombs instead (mass murder does not contribute much to overall violent death anyway no matter how much it is sensationalized in the media), but smaller scale killings would probably decrease.

However, it is not possible for a law to eliminate guns. People who are willing to break the law, many of whom the same people who commit crimes with guns now, will be able to get them through a black market. The US has failed to keep illegal drugs out of the country so far and I do not see the situation being any different with a "War on Guns."

-Winky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #866113 - 09/05/02 08:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You can pick up diesel fuel and amminium nitrate in about 15 minutes. Those are the ingrediants used by McVeigh. A internet search will turn up the instructions in a matter of minutes. So now the guy with the bomb can kill hundreds at one shot. Yes.... sounds like a better idea to me.

Somehow I think you'll find it's not quite as easy as that. The IRA were making bombs for 30 years and their bomb making experts were still regularly blowing themselves up.

Yes... much better he build a bomb or drive a car through a schoolyard full of kids and takes out several of them

I think kids have got more chance of getting out of the way of a car than a guy aiming an AK at them. Do you seriously think the kids at Columbine would have killed as many if they'd gone into the schoolyard in their car?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (09/05/02 08:53 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #866118 - 09/05/02 08:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Sure they can. Maybe you and Alex can. I'm partially disabled with almost no balance. I'll take a gun thanks

You'll take the gun but so will your attacker. And remember the person attacking ALWAYS has the element of surprise. So the chance of being able to reach down and draw your gun when someone says "Hands up" from behind is zero.

Or perhaps while the scumbag was distracted he could have gotten to a gun

And then you drop the gun in the struggle and your attacker, who didn't have a gun to start with, picks it up and runs off with it. After shooting you in both kneecaps as a punishment for pulling a gun on him.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #866143 - 09/05/02 09:14 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What's the point of all these scenarios where the guy sneaks up behind you and says "Hands up," or where you MIGHT drop the gun, the intruder MIGHT get to it before you can, then shoot you in the kneecaps or whatever. Sure, that MIGHT happen. What is a lot more LIKELY to happen is you point the gun at him and he beats a hasty retreat.

As for the right to self defense...

In a struggle between someone who wants to maim or kill you, there is no such thing as "fair play". I don't care if he is armed with a baseball bat, a butterfly knife, a TASER, a can of pepper spray or his bare hands -- if he broke into my place with the intention of harming me and mine, I'll do whatever it takes to prevent it. If it comes down to an actual shootout in the living room, so be it. But if I point a loaded gun at some guy waving a knife, and fire it if necessary, the odds are pretty damn good that I'll get out of the situation with no injuries.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Phred]
    #866159 - 09/05/02 09:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What is a lot more LIKELY to happen is you point the gun at him and he beats a hasty retreat.

Actually you'll find that all the studies show that if you arm people they feel invulnerable and take risks they would never dream of taking if they didn't have the gun. The absolute worst way of protecting women and children from danger is giving them guns to carry around with them. They take massive risks because they think "I've got a gun I'll be ok".

This is a similar argument to the one about safety in cars. I bet you're a big believer in airbags and making cars as safe as they can be right? WRONG. If people feel invulnerable they take massive risks. The most effective safety addition to any car is a foot long steel spike sticking out of the driving wheel.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Xlea321]
    #866170 - 09/05/02 09:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Actually you'll find that all the studies show that if you arm people they feel invulnerable and take risks they would never dream of taking if they didn't have the gun.

"ALL the studies"? WHAT studies might those be? As for taking risks... is it riskier to point a gun at an intruder and tell him to get the fuck out or you'll blow his ass away or to hide in your closet and hope he just wants to swipe your silverware rather than kidnap your child?

I bet you're a big believer in airbags...

You lose that bet.

... and making cars as safe as they can be right?

Within reason. The seat/shoulder belt system is effective and inexpensive, and I personally would not drive a car that wasn't equipped with it.

The most effective safety addition to any car is a foot long steel spike sticking out of the driving wheel.

If you really believe that, you're insane.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs? [Re: Phred]
    #866513 - 09/06/02 06:39 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

As for taking risks... is it riskier to point a gun at an intruder

Guns write people an awful lot of cheques their ass can't cash. Give your daughter a gun and she thinks she's invulnerable. Instead of coming home at 10pm in a taxi she thinks "I'm packin, I'll walk it at 2am". Muggers don't tend to walk up to you shouting "Hey, I'm going to mug you in 10 minutes, you'd better get your gun ready". Not to mention how many people freeze instead of shooting someone. 70% of combat troops freeze when they see the enemy. Imagine how many young women are going to freeze. And very few people would be able to draw a gun, turn and hit the target with the pressure of a guy running at them from behind.

If you really believe that, you're insane.

Sorry man, but if you had a spike in your steering wheel you would drive slower, leave bigger gaps between cars, look more carefully before pulling out etc. The studies have shown that the more safety devices you introduce in cars the higher the accident rate goes. People drive like maniacs when they think they are protected from harm.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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