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Anonymous

total war
    #3251100 - 10/19/04 12:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

it's been a while since the gloves came off and i wonder if this business of geneva conventions and smart bombs is all naive optimism. in a total war, i mean one in which the whole of a society gets behind the war effort, who is a noncombatant? are the farmers that feed the troops and the factory workers who supply them with bombs and bullets noncombatants? in WWII, the allies killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and destroyed billions of dollars in civilian property in firebomb raids and this was considered a valid military strategy. the entire cold war nuclear standoff was based on the idea of annihilation of civilian populations. in vietnam, the enemy soldier existed in and amongst the civilian populace. who is a noncombatant in a total war? what are the ethics of war?


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Anonymous

Re: total war [Re: ]
    #3251129 - 10/19/04 12:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"...But on a hot, dry summer night with good visibilty, the unusually tight concentration of the bombs in a densely populated working class district created a new phenomenon in history: a firestorm.

Eventually it covered an area of about four square miles, with an air temperature at the center of eight hundred degrees Celsius and convection winds blowing inward with hurricane force."

- Gwynne Dyer, War


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Anonymous

Re: total war [Re: ]
    #3251139 - 10/19/04 12:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Actually Dresden was a mass of munitions works, an intact government centre, and a key transportation point to the East. It is now none of these things."

-Air Marshal Harris in a memo to the Air Ministry on 29 March 1945.


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: total war [Re: ]
    #3251146 - 10/19/04 12:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think if it ever got to 'total war' it would be thermonuclear, so thats why we have not gone that far.

I think we would have have WW3 by now if it were not for nukes.
Nukes for peace, now there is a funny thing!


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: total war [Re: ]
    #3251161 - 10/19/04 01:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
... i wonder if this business of geneva conventions and smart bombs is all naive optimism.



Smart bombs have a blast radius of 400 meters. Those dropping them know the potential area of destruction. To say that someone isn't 'targeting civilians' when they know civilians are within the blast radius is being disingenuous.

** edit ** I made a mistake, a 500 lb precision guided bomb has a minimum casualty producing radius of 400 meters - about 4 football fields.


Edited by Evolving (10/19/04 02:30 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: total war [Re: Evolving]
    #3251190 - 10/19/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Smart bombs have a blast radius of 4,000 meters

i'm not sure that's accurate. 4000 meters is two and a half miles.

i know that smart bombs will kill civilians. they're little different than firebombing, nuking, or carpet bombing civilian centers though.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: total war [Re: ]
    #3251474 - 10/19/04 02:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i'm not sure that's accurate. 4000 meters is two and a half miles.



I screwed up, a 500 lb precision guided bomb has a blast radius of 400 meters. A 1,000 lb bomb has a blast radius of 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile. I've read of laser guided bombs with up to a 4,400 lb warhead, common GPS guided bombs with 4,500 lb warheads and the MOAB with 18,700 pounds of high explosive is GPS guided (aka, 'a smart bomb').

BOMB RADIUS DAMAGE OF A MOAB

* Up to 1,000 yards: Obliterates everything.

* Up to 1 mile: Knocks people, tents, light buildings, cars and jeeps over within 1-mile radius.

* Up to 1.7 miles: shock wave kills people, causes severe damage to buildings, equipment, blows trucks, tanks off road.

* Up to 2 miles: causes deafness.

* Up to 5 miles: shakes ground, breaks windows.

* Up to 30 miles: 10,000 foot high mushroom cloud visible.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/19/04 02:39 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,712
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: total war [Re: Evolving]
    #3251503 - 10/19/04 02:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

4 more MOAB's!
4 more MOAB's!
4 more MOAB's!
4 more MOAB's!

GO MOAB's!!!!1

:headbang:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: total war [Re: ]
    #3251543 - 10/19/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I guess ethics in war tend to side with the victors.
You don't see to many generals from the winning side being brought up on war crimes charges.


As far as nuclear war... I definitely think we're going to see some sort of nuclear conflict in the next hundred years. Considering how close the US and Russia came last century, and how many more nations have them today... It has to be only a matter of time.
If the only the US would set a better example.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: total war [Re: Gijith]
    #3251682 - 10/19/04 03:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

^ i would guess sooner rather than later..given the majority public support for bushs' aggressive military expansionism..and its adjutant ideologies...the nuke victims who have embraced such an ideology are by no means entirely innocent..and the ones that didnt will be judged according to that majority nonetheless...

EDIT ..this was also the case at hiroshima & nagasaki...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (10/19/04 04:32 PM)


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: total war [Re: Evolving]
    #3252284 - 10/19/04 06:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Can I purchase a MOAB?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 hours
Re: total war [Re: retread]
    #3252335 - 10/19/04 06:26 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have this little thought experiment, which hopefully gets some consideration in the centers of government throughout the world. If Iran or N. Korea manages to produce nuclear weapons and provides one to some extra-national operative who then manages to smuggle it into NYC and detonates it killing 5-10 million people would there be any whining about the slaughter of the innocents when we make the entire supplier country glow?


--------------------


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: total war [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3252376 - 10/19/04 06:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Good question.

I'd hope that I'd whine.
I'd hope any country that'a attacked with nukes has enough sense to not retaliate in kind. Not with nukes.

I watched the second tower get hit on 9/11 (I was actually on my way to vote) and I lost a few people I knew. I still bitch about the way things were done in Afghanistan.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: total war [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3252682 - 10/19/04 07:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If Iran or N. Korea manages to produce nuclear weapons and provides one to some extra-national operative who then manages to smuggle it into NYC and detonates it...



Al Qaeda is recruiting in Latin America and will no doubt attempt to enlist (if they haven't tried already) drug gangs or coyotes who smuggle stuff/people into the U.S. to help them out. When a nuke comes into the U.S. it will most likely be carried in from the southern border. Thank your man Bush for three things:
1) Creating more enemies with the strategic blunder of the Iraq operation (vis-a-vis the 'war on terror')
2) Keeping the borders porous while pandering for the 'hispanic' vote
3) Refusal to consider a more sensible drug policy which would cut the financial legs and power from under the gangs

Yes, I know... the democrats (Kerry included) are complicit in these.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 hours
Re: total war [Re: Evolving]
    #3252773 - 10/19/04 08:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If Iran or N. Korea manages to produce nuclear weapons and provides one to some extra-national operative who then manages to smuggle it into NYC and detonates it...



Al Qaeda is recruiting in Latin America and will no doubt attempt to enlist (if they haven't tried already) drug gangs or coyotes who smuggle stuff/people into the U.S. to help them out. When a nuke comes into the U.S. it will most likely be carried in from the southern border. Thank your man Bush for three things:
1) Creating more enemies with the strategic blunder of the Iraq operation (vis-a-vis the 'war on terror')
2) Keeping the borders porous while pandering for the 'hispanic' vote
3) Refusal to consider a more sensible drug policy which would cut the financial legs and power from under the gangs

Yes, I know... the democrats (Kerry included) are complicit in these.




I disagree very strongly with your first premise. I don't think it was a blunder and I certainly do not believe it added one single enemy. I, in fact believe that when we leave in a year or two and the people of Iraq, in a decade or two, get their shit together they will be our first or second ally in the Muslim world.

"Keeping our borders porous" Will you please tell me what YOUR solution to the problem is. Do not leave out the fact that they perform a great deal of the menial labor in this country and that US unemployment is around 5% with none of those people willing, apparently, to take those jobs.

And thirdly, no one has ever advocated a sane drug policy that has a fucking snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. It sucks and it's stupid but in this case, truly, "the People is an ass." The only chance is the Supreme Courts fabulous invention of a right to privacy. The Conservative nut logs on the bench need to channel their inner Libertarian, but as long as people are allowed to sue because they spill hot coffee on themselves or set ladders on uneven ground or claim falsely that low fetal oxygen levels cause cerebral palsy there will be no recognition of personal responsibility and thus freedom. "I have the right to destroy myself in any way I see fit. You have no obligation to rescue me. I own my mistakes." Until that concept takes hold there will be no true drug law reform and I don't see anyone going anywhere near that.


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: total war [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3253275 - 10/19/04 10:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I disagree very strongly with your first premise. I don't think it was a blunder and I certainly do not believe it added one single enemy.



Over a thousand dead Americans, an increasing insurgency and world wide Muslim public opinion say otherwise.

Quote:

I, in fact believe that when we leave in a year or two and the people of Iraq, in a decade or two, get their shit together they will be our first or second ally in the Muslim world.



You optimism is not born out by the deteriorating situation in Iraq, nor the increase in radical fundamentalism which continues apace the world over.

Quote:

"Keeping our borders porous" Will you please tell me what YOUR solution to the problem is.



Bring our military home from places all over the globe and PROTECT our borders from invaders. Concurrently re-institute the Bracero program and encourage LEGAL workers to come in.

Quote:

... as long as people are allowed to sue because they spill hot coffee on themselves or set ladders on uneven ground or claim falsely that low fetal oxygen levels cause cerebral palsy there will be no recognition of personal responsibility and thus freedom. "I have the right to destroy myself in any way I see fit. You have no obligation to rescue me. I own my mistakes."



Our tort system is in dire need of overhaul, a user pays provision would help greatly... and yes, the culture of encouraging victim hood is abhorrent.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: total war [Re: Evolving]
    #3254549 - 10/20/04 02:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Terrorism is the poor man's total war. Seems to be pretty popular and cost effective these days.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: total war [Re: ]
    #3255156 - 10/20/04 09:19 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I know that some of the civilian cities we firebombed in W.W. II didn't even have soldiers or anti aircraft defenses. Dresden may or may not have been one of them, my memory is fading. They drafted all the men and boys into service, and the only people left in some of those towns were women and children. Poof.

War is hell. Poof.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: total war [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3255204 - 10/20/04 09:45 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
I know that some of the civilian cities we firebombed in W.W. II didn't even have soldiers or anti aircraft defenses. Dresden may or may not have been one of them, my memory is fading. They drafted all the men and boys into service, and the only people left in some of those towns were women and children. Poof.

War is hell. Poof.



I agree. War is inherently ugly, and we shouldn't be surprised when human rights abuses occur. Which is precisely why we should avoid war unless it is absolutely necessary to protect our life, liberty, or property(by which I don't mean our business interests).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: total war [Re: silversoul7]
    #3255248 - 10/20/04 10:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Which is precisely why we should avoid war unless it is absolutely necessary to protect our life, liberty, or property(by which I don't mean our business interests).

of course, but this doesn't end with a libertarian soundbite.

what about the civilians?

what army is going to positively identify all targets as of a military nature before destroying them? will they send in spies to figure out exactly which factories are building war materials and which aren't, or will they just bomb the manufacturing areas? will they collect intelligence as to what percentage of a farmer's production goes to the war effort before destroying his crop? will they attack only enemy cargo ships that can positively be identified as carrying war materials?

even in peacetime, so much of a modern military is contracted out to the private sector. in a total war, almost all private activities are sustained with the war effort in mind. privately-owned and civilian-operated factories, transportation facilities, and communications, electrical, and transportation infrastructure will be bombed (intentionally) in any real war.

i think that when there is a full-on war, civilians are game. the blood is on the hands of the aggressor. i suppose it depends on which extent civilians are mixed up in the war effort though.


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