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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3233898 -

Why is it sad that people choose to think for themselves?

Your question is very dishonest as nothing of the sort was said. This is very sad.

Please explain how clinging to the idea of a benevolent spirit providing light when it was clearly established to be the harbor lights, is any form of thinking?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Swami]
    #3233904 -

I agree. To have religious beliefs is one thing, but to believe something in the face of overwhelming proof against it is just foolishness. Indulging in one's ignorance retards the individual's and our civilization's growth.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Swami]
    #3233973 -

Swami,

I went back to read your first post. You used the words thinking beleifs, and having minds made up.

I asked you what was so sad about people making up their minds for themselves as YOU claimed they did?

Where's the dishonesty and whats sad about my asking that? I think its funny if it was proved beyond doubt it was the magnifying glass. But so what if people still choose to beleive in a gaurdian spirit presense?

I can't see where they are hurting themselves or anyone else.

If you can show me how in THIS specific case, where the harm is and what makes it sad, then I may reconsider.

What I do think is dangerous is putting all your stock in the final word of an "authority" figure. I definetely hear what they have to say and consider all info provided, but I still think it is careless for one to not use their own discernment and ability to research and explore on their own and to come to their own final conclusions.

This keeps us from blaming others for what we should've taken responcibility for our selves.

I beleive in the idea of being your own authority and self led and accountability and I have to respect that right for others as well.

What are your personal thoughts on authority figures swami? Who is the judge of what makes one an authority? Do you beleive authorities know it all? Do beleive authorites do not have personal agendas of their own? Do you beleive that we should beleive everything we are told to by 'authorities"?

Your post about the haunted lighthouse being debunked was interesting. Why did you have to call people sad who wanted to keep beleiving in the gaurdian spirit?

And hue, your comment was funny. Lots of things render us retarded (stunted from growing) and yes, ignorance is one of them. It's a free will zone. What are we going to do, become upset at the retardation of all the ignorance in the world?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3234117 -

The purpose of our species is to advance, in my way of thinking. To advance we must snuff out ignorance, but do it without resorting to genocide. As I stated I have spiritual beliefs, but I also appreciate empirical scientific data.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3234679 -

If someone wants to beleive that a dead grandmother or gaurdian angel is looking out after them, how does that make them want to find and burn witches, offer up human sacrifices and set off on religious inquisitions?

Jiggy, the lights seen in that lighthouse have been conclusively demonstrated to be reflections off the harbor, not ghosts. Believing otherwise is believing in a lie.

I have a big problem with deception, be it imposed on someone unwittingly or self-imposed. It's a lie and lies need to be challenged no matter where they come from.

When Galileo discovered conclusively that the Earth was not the center of the universe, as held by Catholic dogma at the time, he was told to stop looking at the truth (Jupiter and its moons), and to uphold the dogma. When he refused, he was placed under house arrest and threatened with torture; this based on a demonstrable lie that the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun and planets orbited the Earth. Witch burnings, human sacrifices to the Sun god Ra after eclipses, and all manor of wars and persecution are directly due to belief in things that are demonstrably lies.

And if you don't buy into any of this so far, how about this more practical reason to encourage everyone, even those grieving their dead grandmother, to seek the truth:

People, especially more-vulnerable elderly people, are a pushover for skilled hoaxers who prey on them by capitalizing on their beliefs in lies like haunted lighthouses. They target these people because they know they kid themselves into believing their dear departed grandmother is running the lighthouse to keep the town safe. They're easy marks and usually have a modest savings ripe for the picking. Encouraging people to believe demonstrably false nonsense only sets them up psychologically to be more receptive to hoaxer after their money.

Lies are to be avoided, whether they come from frauds and hoaxers, from thieves, or from within. Nothing good can come from them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/08/04 11:34 PM)

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Diploid]
    #3234742 -

Well, the way I see it, as long as a bad belief system isn't imposed on others, what's the harm? Of course, Jonestown is an example of imposing one's beliefs on others and the whole thing went awry.

But I believe in God. There are those here that say I have no proof, so I am delusional. But as long as I don't try to harm anyone because of my beliefs, no harm, right?

It's when someone's erroneous beliefs are imposed on others, to their detriment, that the whole thing should be debunked.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Frog]
    #3234775 -

Well, the way I see it, as long as a bad belief system isn't imposed on others, what's the harm?

What's the harm? How about when your superstitious grandmother gets taken to the cleaners by a guy claiming to 'channel' her dearly departed husband?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Frog]
    #3234782 -

But I believe in God. There are those here that say I have no proof, so I am delusional.

And for the record, I would not presume to fault your belief in God. I don't know about that one way or another. I fault your belief in the Bible. It is demonstrably full of inconsistencies, contradictions, and lies.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/08/04 11:54 PM)

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Diploid]
    #3234795 -

I appreciate your responce, it was thoughtful of your view.

People lie to themselves all of the time. Sometimes, if they beleive their own lies enough, they can make them become true. Some lies people tell themselves get them through the day. If you confront some one with a provable fact and they choose to ignore it and beleive something else then, maybe it helps them cope and who is anyone to take that from them if no harm is being done?

Maybe my perspective is just really pulled far back on this one. Do I care if people want to beleive fairies are tending to their gardens? Do I care if a friend chooses to ignore proof their significant other is cheating on them?

Choices to me are like causitive actions. Everyone has to face the effect. Who is to judge if the effect/consequence is good or bad but the person who created it for themselves. Making mistakes if they are judged as such by the one, are growth opprotunities and people should be allowed to make them.

I beleive in eternal life and reincarnation and don't feel the sense of permanance some people do about this stuff. There isn't much I give a lot of weight too. I like to keep it "light".

It looks like there are lots of ways to care and alot of it is projected fear. Think of parents who care out of fear and stifle and smother their children. Where's the balance???????


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Diploid]
    #3234814 -

Diploid said:
Well, the way I see it, as long as a bad belief system isn't imposed on others, what's the harm?

What's the harm? How about when your superstitious grandmother gets taken to the cleaners by a guy claiming to 'channel' her dearly departed husband?


But that's why I said that when it harms others, then it should be stopped. But a bunch of people in a small town thinking that some guy is protecting them or whatever, who's being harmed? But your grandmother, that's different, of course. Those people should definitely be debunked, in a most serious way!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Diploid]
    #3234909 -

Here's another way I see tis case. the people of te town didn't have any time or money vested in the beleif of the gaurdian spirit, so when it was debunked, there was nothing to be concerned about.

They probable enjoyed the idea so much they didn't want to give up that joy.

In the case of someone who is being conned to believe something that isn't true, so money or whatever can be extorted, I agree with an expose and then, it's up to the conned to decided from there what the experience means to them.

I see your points diploid. I just don't see where they apply to the friendly town spook, aka magnifying glass. I take this stuff on a case by case basis.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Frog]
    #3234910 -

Frog, when those people in the town delude themselves by believing in an unchallenged lie, it places them on a slippery slope making them vulnerable to those smart enough and unethical enough to take advantage of that belief. Don't you see all the Ms Cleo's, Sylvia Browne's, and that guy whats-his-face with the TV show who talks to dead people, making a fortune doing exactly that every day?

But that's why I said that when it harms others, then it should be stopped.

So, you're saying that dear old grandma should be allowed to delude herself until someone harms her (wipes out her bank account) and only THEN she should be told the truth that grandpa's ghost really ISN'T running the lighthouse.

Hmmm...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/09/04 12:28 AM)

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3234931 -

I see your points diploid. I just don't see where they apply to the friendly town spook, aka magnifying glass.

Playing up the friendly town spook isn't what I'm talking about. A joke is great, I love jokes, parleying the friendly town spook into a tourist attraction isn't what I'm talking about either. These are cases of people who know better having a little fun and encouraging tourism.

The people in that show (many of them, anyway) were not in this class. They believed wholeheartedly in the ghost before the idea was debunked, and they continued to believe it afterward.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Diploid]
    #3234939 -

Well, shit, Diploid, of course the harm should be stopped when they start trying to take her money BEFORE her account is wiped out.

Look, I realize there is usually a fine line between things. I'm just saying that if one little town is enjoying a belief that someone they knew is watching over them, and no one is fucking with them otherwise or taking advantage of them, what's the harm?

I don't buy it that just because they think this way, that someone will be able to coome along and steal all their money.

Hell, I believe in God, but if you touch my money I'll fucking shoot you. (j/k)

Seriously, people are intelligent, for the most part, aren't they? Regardless of a few errant beliefs?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Frog]
    #3234949 -

"Seriously, people are intelligent, for the most part, aren't they? Regardless of a few errant beliefs? "

ya...



and once again a thread of lots of great intelligent replies will be shrugged of with a technical fallacy by Swami, leaving the boat empty, headed for sea....

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Frog]
    #3234956 -

Seriously, people are intelligent, for the most part, aren't they? Regardless of a few errant beliefs?

Ms Cleo, Sylvia Browne, and whats-his-face say otherwise.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Diploid]
    #3234963 -

I think Nation wide phone scams go beyond ' a few errant beliefs'

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3235013 -

Okay, this is to both you and diploid...

I tend to see the world through my eyes, and what I think I see is a world made of people like me. So I am surprised that there are people who can be conned. But you guys are right, there are people who can be conned.

Oh, wait a minute, I can be conned, but just not in this way.

But I just don't think it's so terrible if a group of towns people think some dead guy's spirit is watching over them. It's kinda cute, ya know?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Swami]
    #3235062 -

I would never pay money to go see this place or try to prove it to myself because it would not be a big deal to my psyche. I have already decided that even if life after death may exist, it is unprovable in this realm. Things like this light house are an example of this, just look at any ghost story and the great seance scams of the early 90's ..

And even if it was provable I would not be surprised. Either way, this whole thing gives a bad name to 'spirituality', and does not express the view's or thoughts of the majority of 'beleivers'

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Re: "Ghost" Lighthouse Debunked [Re: Swami]
    #3235946 -

"This lack of plasticity is one of the major faults of being an undisciplined thinker"

I like that passage and I'm going o steal it.


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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