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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Ghosts and Big Old Houses
    #613141 - 04/19/02 08:04 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Why do ghosts so love big old houses? The answer quite simply is because BIG houses have a great deal of weight and usually several floors. As the house ages the timbers will settle causing all manner of creaks and knocks. You will find that most "hauntings" occur during the spring or fall when the temperature transisitions the fastest causing extreme expansion and contraction.

Note that ghosts prefer wooden houses. Steel-framed, brick and concrete make little noise when expanding / contracting. New buildings are rarley haunted, even those where murder took place. Tiny old cottages are also avoided by ghosts.

Houses on a hill get the added bonus of the earth settling over time, making for extra creepy noises.

"Gee Swamster, how do you know that the sound I heard was not made by a ghost?"
Answer: A sound is the responding air distrubance when two PHYSICAL objects collide. Ghosts are ethereal.

"Well, maybe they used their power to make an object crash."
Answer: If they could interact with the physical world, then there is nothing to prevent them from writing a clear message.

"Yeah, but I SAW a ghost."
Answer: Ghosts are almost always seen out of the corner of your eye. Why do they momentarily appear in one's peripheral vision? Because your mind caught a glimpse of light or shadow and interpreted it as an entity, but when you looked straight at the apparition, your mind now receives all the data and can see that therer is nothing unusual there.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (04/20/02 03:55 AM)


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Offlinebedetached
supercalifragolisticexpialidocious

Registered: 01/20/02
Posts: 74
Loc: your mind
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #613265 - 04/19/02 10:33 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i moved from romanina during the revolution, we used to have no running water, no electricity, no nothing, the house we lived in was very old, with a rich history of violence. at night, when everyone was up stairs we could hear music and people laughing and dancing downstairs.my father would go down with his rifle and a bible, nothing was there, everything would stop for an hour or so. my mother would cry b/c of her fear, my father would let all 6 of us in his room whenever this happened, i to this day believe in ghosts, perhaps they are just imprints from another time, i dont know. but i heard first hand, many times, things that go bump in the night.


--------------------
through our senses the world appears. through our reactions we create delusions. without reactions the world becomes clear.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #613289 - 04/19/02 11:22 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I can understand where you are coming from Swami and I too am a rationalist but you'd have to experience a ghost for yourself when there is only you alone and something else there and you are trying to tell yourself that it has a rational explanation while it becomes obvious that it doesnt.
My story:
My friend and I moved into a flat that was rather small, but very long and skinny so that it took a while to walk around the two hallways from front to back. While we were moving in we noticed that the windows in several rooms that were dirty had a message rubbed into them from the inside saying 'hello world'. This seemed strange to us as the realestate agent had told us that no-one had gone into the flat for monthes as the owner had not rented it out for two years.
Anyway, after the first night, I recall nothing in particular until the morning while sleeping in, I heard my guitar being strummed about 10am in the morning open chorded. I assumed this was my flatmate, so didnt take notice. When I got up at 11:30 I thought it was strange that my flatmate was still in bed and insisted that he hadnt been up at all in the morning.
The second night after a few drinks, we both came home and went to bed with nothing of any consequence occuring to me. In the morning however Mark (flatmate) insisted that he had been kept awake by a VERY rowdy party that sounded like it was inside our living room. I said that I didnt hear anything, and assumed it was the neighbours as their flats are attached to ours. The funny thing was that behind our flat was a vacant block and we had an old lady for two flats one direction, and an old man and an asian couple the other way - none of whom would have a rowdy party with lots of young people.
That afternoon the owner arrived to ask us if we had had any 'trouble' with the place and we said no - its seems quite nice, etc. we watched tv that evening and then we went to bed.
As I went into my room, my flatmate said that he's going outside for a smoke. I said cool then closed my door and lay down in my bed. Within a minute I could hear very distinct and loud (as if trying to be loud) footsteps going past my door over and over again within 10 second intervals as if someone was rushing up adn down the hallway. I assumed this was Mark, but then I heard him re-enter the house after his cigerette and the stomping stopped.
I just thought it was a bit strange, then went back to dosing, when within a minute of him closing his bedroom door, the footstep began again continually and were enough for me to become wide awake and curious. I thought it might have been an animal in the roof, but the sounds was definately coming from the hallway outside my room. Just as I was wondering what it was the sound actually seemed to walk into the room and stop at the end of my bed. At this stage I looked up towards the closed door and saw nothing. There was silence. Then with a rush the footsteps moved across the room to the cupboard and I actually heard the cupboard doors open when I could see that they already were open! I sat up and looked toward the area and gazed at the ceiling thinking it had to be the next door neighbour or an animal in the room.
This bit still makes me shake! As I sat up I heard the steps sounding towards me and as they did so, a plastic bag on the floor made a distinct crinkling sound and I swore. It was then that the steps sounds like they were right under by bed and I felt a definite and strange electric 'pressure' and a strange buzzing sound in my ears that sounded like a purring of a cat or something. I freaked out and screamed and rushed to turn the light on out of bed. Upon doing so there was nothing there at all. My flatmate came rushing and i had to say 'look man, I know this soudns fucked, but there was an invisible person walking around in here!' He didnt believe me, but i was so scared that i insisted on sleep in his room with the light on and behind his bed as well. I was very scared - but more just shocked - i also severley doubted what had occured - i thought i was mad.
After some reassurance from my flatmate, we attempted to fall asleep. No sooner had we again began to dose when we both were woekn in severe fright by loud slipper-like footsteps thumping into the room from the closed door. We both awoke in panic and screamed our lungs out. As soon we were awake however there was nothing in the room. But as we grabbed all our stuff to get out, we heard a distinctly human knocking on the wall of Mark's room that was between his room and the lounge room. That was enough for both of us to rush to the car and fuck off out of there.
The next day we invited three friends to come to the house as well, and two fo the three had their own experiences in the house. I was asleep on the lounge room floor with a friend next to me when i felt a footstep on the quilt beside me that actually pressed it down like someone was standing there and then a huge pressure on my body that instantly woke me in shock out of sleep. My friend heard knocking, footsteps and a presense. My flatmate's friends also heard knocking and laughter. We believed it was a painting in the room that was causing the problems, so on the third night my flatmate went and got some holywater and sprayed it around the house, put up images of mary everywhere and then smashed the painting up. I went to stay else where while he stayed at the falt with his mate. That night he was woken by a distinct scream right next to his ear 'MARK!'. And this was enough for them both to freak out and go stay somewhere else.
Later on that night I actually noticed a presence in the room where I was staying (two miles from the flat) and this freaked me out. Mark also had experiences outside the flat later on. We both bought a cat and moved into a new flat and the experiences happily stopped.
I only stayed there three nights and I was there seven days and other weird stuff happened when we were moving out. I saw a large brown blob moving in the kitchen from the corner of my eye and when mark pulled down the Mary image there were dark finger marks all around it on the wall like someone had been constantly rubbing at the image! Weird shit.
We blew our bond and fucked off quick smart and I will never even drive down that street again.
To cut a long story short, the owner gave us our bond back later anyway and he said that he had never had a tenant in three years stay more than a month or too. The neighbour said that the flat two doors down was the scene of a suicide, but that' all he could say - 'maybe its because its number 7' he joked.


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OfflineTannis
ZoneTrooper
Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 508
Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #613652 - 04/20/02 10:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Care to join the "team"? We'd send you in first. You'd save me alot of leg work and wasted time.......


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Tannis]
    #613654 - 04/20/02 10:40 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Sure, as long as I get to wear one of those ultra-cool proto-packs, ala GhostBusters.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #614025 - 04/20/02 07:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Well since I posted recently about hearing footsteps in this "big ole house" I wanted to reply. I am not claiming the footsteps I heard were the result of a ghost. I have no way of knowing that for sure. I have, however, kept an open mind, although I have ruled out any common explanations that have been thrown at me so far. But doggone it, I think I know the difference between a house "settling" and footsteps. My experience wasn't referrenced specifically, but it brings to mind a common theme in these cases that grates.

I'm not totally a skeptic and not totally a believer, but it always annoys me when I hear someone describe for example, a UFO sighting as say.." a huge pulsating cigar-shaped object with multi- colored lights zigzagging in the sky.." and the skeptic( Id say cynic) comes in and smugly pronounces it as a mistaken sighting of the planet Venus or swamp gas. Talk about condescension! People may be drawing the wrong conclusions about something mysterious, but man..give them -some- credit! It's like these critics are not even thinking- they just reflexively throw these pat explanations/cliches out there to avoid having to really consider anything outside their world view.

It's a wonder mankind ever discover any new phenomenon with the kind of laugh-it-off, explain-it-away, we've got it all figured out, stick to the scientific consensus(dogma, group-think) that passes for open-minded inquiry. Ninety plus percent of unexplained phenomenon very likely have some simple mundane explanation, and there are quite a few kooks and hoaxsters out there. But in those cases where no common explanation can be found, can we just leave it open?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Jellric]
    #614082 - 04/20/02 08:43 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

But in those cases where no common explanation can be found, can we just leave it open?
Those nasty skeptics. Of course you miss your own point in that it is the believers who are the first to draw the conclusions.

Unknown sound = ghosts footsteps.
Unknown ripple on the lake = Nessie
Unknown light in the sky = alien scout ship
Selective memory = telepathy

and so on.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #614255 - 04/21/02 02:27 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

"Of course you miss your own point..."
-----
Thank you, Swami, for making my point for me about cynicism going hand-in-hand with condescension.
--

.. in that it is the believers who are the first to draw the conclusions."
"Those nasty skeptics."..
----
Those nasty believers.

Those nasty blacks.
Those nasty whites.
That nasty right wing.
That nasty left wing.
I shot off that nasty left wing; that'll learn 'em!
Oh nooooo!!
Now we're in a tailspin!!!!
How did we ever get into this mess??!!







--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #614275 - 04/21/02 03:52 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Swami:
"You will find that most "hauntings" occur during the spring or fall..."
---------
Where did you get this information?
Was there some sort of survey conducted?
If so, where are the numbers?
Or are these your personal beliefs?
-------

New buildings are rarley haunted...
-----
Again, what is the basis for this statement?
Wouldn't it stand to reason that older buildings have had more residents and thus a greater chance of having ghosts assuming such things exist?
----
"ghosts are almost always seen out of the corner of your eye."
----
What about the ones that aren't?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Jellric]
    #614536 - 04/21/02 10:12 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

If ghosts really exist ( and I think they do )
Then that open a lot of other questions like this
So that can mean that there is some kind of existence after death.
Not all people who die stay "down here"...so where rest of dead folks "go"
and so on and so on.....
Soooo what you think? :smile:

------weird----
 


--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Jellric]
    #614749 - 04/21/02 03:36 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you, Swami, for making my point for me about cynicism going hand-in-hand with condescension.
You're welcome.

.. in that it is the believers who are the first to draw the conclusions."
I note that you did not contradict this cynical and condescending, but true statement. Without an outrageous claim, there is nothing to debunk.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #615055 - 04/21/02 11:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

bluemeanie, that's some fuckin weird shit.


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #615104 - 04/22/02 12:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)


'.. in that it is the believers who are the first to draw the conclusions." '

Swami:
"I note that you did not contradict this cynical and condescending, but true statement. Without an outrageous claim, there is nothing to debunk."
---
I didn't respond to it because when I read it, I was like "so...?"
There has to be an initial incident for there to be a reaction, so..?
"Debunking"- a pretty prejudicial word to go in with before seeing the evidence.
Where's the spirit of open-minded inquiry here?

Ok, so I answered it.
Now can I get an answer on the ENTIRE post of mine you failed to respond to?
I would be interested in where you got the information that formed the basis for this thread.
Where's the evidence for these "outrageous" claims of yours? :-)



--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Jellric]
    #615125 - 04/22/02 01:11 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

the skeptic comes in and smugly pronounces it as a mistaken sighting of the planet Venus
(Nice use of the word smug as you know the attitude of every investigator out there.) It has CLEARY been shown that Venus is the number 1 object misidentified as a UFO. Even MUFON will tell you this. 5000 mistaken reports of Venus, but maybe, just maybe, #5001 is the real deal. Whatever...

It's a wonder mankind ever discover any new phenomenon with the kind of laugh-it-off, explain-it-away, we've got it all figured out, stick to the scientific consensus(dogma, group-think) that passes for open-minded inquiry.
The scientific method is responsible for most discoveries, from antibiotics to computers. Not too many discoveries come from waving a flashlight at the mothership, being abducted by aliens, or contacting the dead.

Discovery comes from asking questions and exploring many alternate possibilities, not by glomming onto the first explanation that pops into your head. (Duh, a strange noise = footsteps = discarnate entity.) Now that is a pretty close-minded thought process.

Ninety plus percent of unexplained phenomenon very likely have some simple mundane explanation
Hmm, I wonder who discovered the 90% pedantic explanations? Perhaps it it was those investigating skeptics or was it the complacent believers?

and there are quite a few kooks and hoaxsters out there.
Gee now, let me guess which group uncovered the hoaxsters, would that be the gentle open-minded believers or the evil skeptics?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (04/22/02 09:56 AM)


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #615155 - 04/22/02 01:55 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Swami:
"Discovery comes from asking questions and explorining many alternate possibilities, not by glomming onto the first explanation that pops into your head. (Duh, a strange noise = footsteps = discarnate entity.) Now that is a pretty close-minded thought process.
"

Are you referring to a specific case here?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #615157 - 04/22/02 02:04 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Swami:
"(Nice use of the word smug as you know the attitude of every investigator out there.)"
---
I wasn't referring to "every" investigator out there.
I was referring to a certain type of case.
---------------
'the skeptic comes in and smugly pronounces IT [emphasis mine] as a mistaken sighting of the planet Venus'

Swami:
"...has CLEARY been shown that Venus is the number 1 object misidentified as a UFO."
-----
I think what "IT" refers to here has been lost for whatever reason.
I was talking about a typical case.
You have it out of context.
I will spare everyone requoting myself.
I was referring to the condescending attitude of so-called investigators solemly informing people they somehow mistook the planet Venus, a point of light in the sky, for a large, zigzagging multi-colored, cigar-shaped object.

Well I won't be asking you the third time for the factual basis for this thread.
I think it's clear to everyone there isn't one.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Jellric]
    #615363 - 04/22/02 10:14 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I wasn't referring to "every" investigator out there.
Ah, some fictional case that you just made up.

I was referring to a certain type of case.
I see, the "type" of case responded to by some unknown smug individual.

I think it's clear to everyone there isn't one (a factual basis).
Perhaps if you posted a factual report instead of a hypothetical one...

I was referring to the condescending attitude of so-called investigators...
All investigators? Generalization is a horribly weak form of argument. They are "so-called" because you don't agree with their conclusion?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Swami]
    #615523 - 04/22/02 01:50 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Swami:
"Ah, some fictional case that you just made up."

No, actually it was one I read about several years ago.
Multiple people witnessed what they all described as a large object bearing no resemblence whatever to a point of light in the sky, and were informed it was the planet Venus. Now I'm not saying it was an alien scout ship or whatever, but come on.

'I was referring to the condescending attitude of so-called investigators...'

Swami:
"All investigators? Generalization is a horribly weak form of argument. They are "so-called" because you don't agree with their conclusion?"

*sigh*..For the second time, I was referring to a specific type of dismissive case by "investigators"- not ALL investigators. (Geez..It's like pulling teeth with this guy!) You left out what I wrote after the "..." (Interesting editing).

Yes, I refer to such investigators as "so-called" because when someone throws out pitiful explanations like the planet Venus in these types of cases, it is clear they have turned off their much vaunted critical thinking skills, and are resorting to tired old cliches. "Alien ships don't exist. So there must be a mundane explanation...Let's see, I'll parrot this cliche..[Reaches into pocket for random 3X5 card]"

Swami:
"Perhaps if you posted a factual report instead of a hypothetical one..."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you start this thread?
I wanted my posts to be in keeping with the tone you set.
Debate with you is fast approaching pointlessness.
You remind me of the Japanese soldier found on an island 20 years after WWII.
He didn't know the war was over. :-)


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Jellric]
    #615542 - 04/22/02 02:23 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

sigh*..For the second time, I was referring to a specific type of dismissive case by "investigators"- not ALL investigators. (Geez..It's like pulling teeth with this guy!)
If I posted like you I would point to one particular hoax and go, "See?" But I refrained from that cheap trick. (Geez...It's like putting pulled teeth back in!) WTF does one (possibly erroneous) investigator many years ago have to do with UFO investigation at large?

Yes, I refer to such investigators as "so-called" because when someone throws out pitiful explanations ..
A 90% + hit rate is not pitiful. You admitted that at least 90% were misidentifications and or hoaxes. Perhaps the investigator (if wrong) was tired of yet another BS report when some UFO nut pulled out his 3*5 card and read off "cigar-shaped with flashing lights" which was most likely the FUJI blimp (whichI personally saw flying over the CES in Las Vegas and the next day was reported exactly as you described! - LOL!)

Has Venus been misidentified as a UFO countless times? (note how you jumped over this point) YES or NO?

Will it most likely be misidentified yet again in the future? YES or NO?

Did 10,000 people claim to see mysterious craft or Phoenix a few years back? YES or NO

Were ALL 10,000 people wrong when it was CLEARLY shown without any doubt whatsoever to be military flares? YES or NO

Was this discovered by a lazy-ass believer or the tireless forces of truth?

Conclusion: People have fanciful imaginations and see and hear EXACTLY what they want to or expect to.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Ghosts and Big Old Houses [Re: Jellric]
    #615627 - 04/22/02 04:44 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Man.. you're still here? :-)


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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