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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Do real conservatives still exist...
    #3036271 -

...in the Republican party? It seems to me that there are very few Barry Goldwaters anymore. It seems that the few true conservatives nowadays have either fled to the libertarian party, or held their nose and stuck by a man who would make Thomas Jefferson roll over in his grave. There are some Democrats who I would say are probably closer to true conservatives than most of the Republican party. Did most of them just sell out their ideals in the name of party loyalty?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3036342 -

Did most of them just sell out their ideals in the name of party loyalty?

Or they sold out directly to the One True God: $$$$$


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3036367 -

They belatedly learned how easily people can be bought.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3036374 -

Are there are any real 'liberals' left in the Democratic Party? And by liberal I mean the original definition of 'laize fair' policies.

Face it, times change, parties evolve and labels take on different meanings. If you go far enough back you can call Confederates or Tories the only true conservatives.

For example, William F. Buckly Jr. started the National Review about 50 years ago, and yet today it is widely accused of being 'neo-con', despite that the same man was until very recently the editor in chief, and to this day plays a large role in the magazine. He was for Goldwater then, and yet today he is still Republican.

I think you confuse conservative with reactionary.

Edited by Divided_Sky (08/22/04 01:54 PM)

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3036422 -

silversoul7 said:
...in the Republican party? It seems to me that there are very few Barry Goldwaters anymore. It seems that the few true conservatives nowadays have either fled to the libertarian party, or held their nose and stuck by a man who would make Thomas Jefferson roll over in his grave. There are some Democrats who I would say are probably closer to true conservatives than most of the Republican party. Did most of them just sell out their ideals in the name of party loyalty?


Ron Paul is about it. He truly is one of the great patriots of our time, defending the Constitution and it's principles of Peace, Free Markets, and Limited Government when no one else in the kingdom of Washington D.C. will. I would say very few of them had firm ideals to begin with...just a desire to acquire power in order to benefit the country. That's how it starts out at least. Most of the congressional demagogues of today who have been there for multiple decades, our very own Johnathan Kerry included, have certainly lost site of their original idealism(which was not a good thing to begin with) and now seek only to consolidate and keep a stranglehold on the aforementioned power.

There is no word I can think of to describe someone who calls himself a fiscal conservative and votes for Bush besides 'blind.' From the lack of even one veto on a spending bill, to the economically idiotic Steel Tariffs, to the mind-boggling expansion of government involvment in health care, to the desire to 'wait' for his second term to try and reform Social Security, to the dramatic increase in the national debt, and overall the unprecedented increase in federal government spending(Bush supporters, don't bullshit me with your 'OH BUT 9-11 HAPPENED, WE HAD TO INCREASE MILITARY SPENDING!!1'...fine, that's a legitimate debate...but fucking Health & Human Services, Interior, Education, etc. spending all rose anywhere from 30% to 99%, depending on the department). A down syndrome patient can see the cataclysmic amount of hypocrisy in a fiscal conservative Bush supporter. Anyone who would call himself a defender of American values and yet would support Bush, needs desperately to open their eyes. Please, wake up.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3036439 -

Yeah Bush has been a big spender. Hopefully next time around he won't be trying to impress Ted Kennedy and pretending to be a liberal to seem like a compassionate person. The whole 'Uniter Not a Divider' thing was trying to please everyone, and of course the only way to do that is increasing spending on everything so nobody can accuse you of cutting funding for social programs.
Perhaps by now he has learned.

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3036480 -

Quote:
Yeah Bush has been a big spender.


Understatement of the year?

Quote:
Hopefully next time around he won't be trying to impress Ted Kennedy and pretending to be a liberal to seem like a compassionate person.


Haha. You can't possibly think Bush is going to be a completely different President in his second term? Give me a goddamn break.

Quote:
The whole 'Uniter Not a Divider' thing was trying to please everyone, and of course the only way to do that is increasing spending on everything so nobody can accuse you of cutting funding for social programs.
Perhaps by now he has learned.


As much as I'm sure he wants to be, Bush is not yet Emperor of the Dominion of America. For the last 10 years we have had a Republican majority in Congress. Ten. Freaking. Years. Government has grown like never before. Now if you really think these people are going to pull off the masks after this arbitrary election and start acting like true fiscal conservatives, I think you can be legally diagnosed as clinically insane. These abhorrent men are conservatives in title alone. In truth, they are statists...nothing more and nothing less. They believe they can run the lives of individuals better than the individuals themselves can, they have no use for the federalism so neccesary to American liberty that gives them very specific, limited powers, and they ESPECIALLY have no use for the Supreme Law of the Land which they pledge a meaningless oath to. I refuse to believe you are naive enough to sincerely think Republicans will one day say Surprise!, and start shrinking government. It will never happen and I think you know it. Please accept this before it becomes impossible to not accept.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3036599 -

I think things would be different a second time around because:
a) Bush has seen that liberal fiscal policies won't help him
b) He will not be running for re-election again so he can be more consrvative and get away with it
c)His conservative base is getting tired of his big government policies.

Republicans are still the party of Newt Ginrich, they do NOT want big government. Bush tried to win moderate and liberal support with spending but it didn't work. I think he will return to his conservative base.

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3036649 -

I have to agree with Ancalagon. Republicans make me ashamed to be a conservative. I would be hard pressed to imagine them with more power. They have state legislators, Governors, The House, The Senate, The Supreme Court, and the Oval Office. For the love of God, what excuse can they possibly have to shift the blame to anyone but themselves? They got elected for a reason. People don't like high taxes, big government, government intrusion or inefficient programs. They cut taxes a little, but they haven't done anything else but chase Bill Clinton around with a blue dress. And Clinton would have worked with them on legislation had they tried, all he ever wanted to be is popular.

I suport George Bush, but I am not blind. I support him because I believe we have to finish what we started in Iraq. When we left Indochina out to dry in the 1970's, it was the darkest day in all of American foreign policy. Millions of people were slaughtered in the killing fields. It was a fucking holocaust.

We owe it to the Iraqi people to finish what we started. It may have been a bad idea to go over there, but that is water under the bridge now. We broke it, we bought it. If John Kerry gets elected I fear that he will cut and run if the public loses resolve.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3037752 -

Its funny because convervatism is supposed to be the cornerstone of the republican party and I see more conservatism coming from democrats. Democrats are the ones who want a balanced budget and conserve the environment (a conservative issue), and more civil liberties (a conservative issue still)

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: Worf]
    #3038287 -

Quote:
outputrotation said:
Its funny because convervatism is supposed to be the cornerstone of the republican party and I see more conservatism coming from democrats. Democrats are the ones who want a balanced budget and conserve the environment (a conservative issue), and more civil liberties (a conservative issue still)



Balanced budget: for now, they had an opposite stance during the Clinton years. As soon as a Democrat is in the White House the Republicans will want to balance the budget again and Democrats will want to keep spending.

Environment: I agree it should be a conservative issue, but I would say democrats environmental orthodoxy is too conservative; it is old, inflexible and doesn't work.

Civil liberties: Democrats like some civil 'liberties', such as the hypothetical rights to gay marriage, abortion and drivers licences for illegal aliens, but they are less kind to the first and second Amendments in the Bill of Rights. Again, Democrats have had nothing against invasive government until it became an issue to use against Bush.

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3038383 -

it used to be that Republicans soft peddled shit like family values to get votes and then persued more libertarian policies when elected to office.

At some point the part just started believing its own hype, I guess. Thats what scares me the most about the current Republican party; they arent just soft peddling their insane social policies- a lot of them actually believe in that shit. *shudders* It scares me to think about the beliefs they keep to themselves.

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3039544 -

sounds like you need to buy pat buchanan's new book...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3039940 -

Richard M. Nixon was the last real conservative. Toady all we have is religious fanatics.


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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: Zahid]
    #3040059 -

Richard Nixon was not considered a conservative Republican in his day. As a matter of fact, Nixon's actions prompted the creation of the Libertarian party by some Republicans (along with a few Democrats and others).


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Do real conservatives still exist... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3040435 -

Richard Nixon created Affirmative Action. Not really conservative.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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