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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: z@z.com]
    #2980136 -

If a ship ruptures and spills oil the company loses both the oil and possibly the ship. Not to even mention the fines and lawsuits.

No, using old out of date "rustbuckets" is a lot cheaper than investing in newer and safer transportation ships. An obvious solution would be to transport smaller quantities of oil - but that means a lot less profit. Therefore the environment pays the cost. Capitalism in action.

The fines and lawsuits are certainly no deterrant whatsoever. Evading liability by using flags of convenience, subcontracting and other legal con tricks is simple.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2980171 -

What's great about capitalism is that you, the consumer, have the power to affect cost

Er..right..

If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships

Well leaving aside for a second the fact that they all use them so your argument is utterly pointless anyway..

..but don't you think the environment is a little too important to depend on everyone on earth spending hours researching through the myriad subcontractors and flags of convenience the oil companies could use to hide behind? You don't think the government simply passing a law saying "Spill oil and we will bankrupt you" would make the environment a helluva lot safer?

Or is that a little too socialist for you?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2980486 -

BTW..has anyone actually witnessed a neocon on acid??...

The mind boggles. I imagine you'd be walking through the forest and they'd say "Dude, imagine if we cut this all down and built a mall in it's place. The profits would be enormous! And more consumers go to malls than the forest so, like, that's capitalist freedom".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2980567 -

Alex123 said:
Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism?

Actually it would, because other oil companies would simply hire people who hadn't taken psychedelics and were happy to undercut the others. The people paying for safety features would be driven out of business by the ones who didn't give a damn. That's capitalism for you.


Actually, I think z@z made an even better point here. It is far more profitable not to spill oil.

Quote:
I think government intrusion in people's lives is more contradictory to the values I've gained both on and off psychedelics

What "government intrusion" are you talking about? Do you think the National Health Service in the UK is "government intrusion"? Providing free health care to poor people?


If by "free" you mean paid for by stolen money, then yes.

Quote:
My grandfather mentioned the other day he had a friend at school who became ill and couldn't afford to pay to see a doctor. He died. (your fabled notion that "charity" will save us all didn't work then either) The value of life isn't something psychedelics have impressed on you?


If anything psychedelics have taught me that life is an illusion, but I digress. The value of life does not justify theft.

Quote:
See my example above.

I did. Your example doesn't work.


Maybe not as well as z@z's point, but it still worked.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2980569 -

What's thing about the "values" of capitalism? Capitalism is a system of economics. It doesn't have values. People do.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2980576 -

Alex123 said:
If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships

Well leaving aside for a second the fact that they all use them so your argument is utterly pointless anyway..


See my example about oil CEO's taking psychedelics. If one of them decided to use safer ships, you could reward them by buying their oil and boycotting others.

Quote:
..but don't you think the environment is a little too important to depend on everyone on earth spending hours researching through the myriad subcontractors and flags of convenience the oil companies could use to hide behind? You don't think the government simply passing a law saying "Spill oil and we will bankrupt you" would make the environment a helluva lot safer?


I have no problem with massive fines for oil spills.

Quote:
Or is that a little too socialist for you?


Actually, it goes fits quite well with geolibertarian values. Since the oceans are common property, it is therefore initiation of force to pollute them, and thus fines must be imposed for doing so.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2980663 -

And people also fuck the environment, our common "property", up - that's where taxes come in.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: deafpanda]
    #2980700 -

I have said before that I advocate a land value tax(tax on the value of land), since land is common property. I have also said before that I am all for imposing fines on major pollutors, as the air and water is also common property. This is consistent with geolibertarian ideals. What is not just is taxation on productivity and voluntary transactions.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2981024 -

Once again, saying something a lot doesn't make it true. It is not 'stealing' so long as they are tacitly agreeing to the laws of the land by remaining in that land. They are tacitly agreeing to all laws, including tax laws.

And before you make the comparison, this is not the same as a dictatorship where people are not free to leave.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2981069 -

I assume that he means because the government is passing up billions in tax money and then wasting tax money on fighting the drug war.

it's more about the nature of the legislation, not the means used to enforce it. people are prohibited from producing or exchanging a material good. we're talking about a situation where the rights of individuals to produce or engage in free exchange are limited for the benefit of some nebulous "common good". it's not capitalistic in the least. it's a collectivist agenda. it is anti-capitalist.

Why? Because it's protecting the system by keeping people concentrated on materialistic goals. If drugs such as marijuana and psychedelics were legal, it would cause the system to collapse.

capitalism is not incompatible with the values that you are suggesting are reinforced through the use of psychedelic drugs. the existence of freedom in the marketplace would not disappear on account of psychedelic drugs. if you disagree, why?

the idea that psychedelics will bring about the fall of society, or capitalism, or whatever, is not the reason that they are illegal. it is just another one of many erroneous excuses.

Edited by mushmaster (08/09/04 12:04 PM)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Tao]
    #2981262 -

TaoTeChing said:
Once again, saying something a lot doesn't make it true. It is not 'stealing' so long as they are tacitly agreeing to the laws of the land by remaining in that land.


Say a group of thugs come to a shop owner and say to him, "give us $500 a week or we'll put you out of business and we will no longer 'protect' you from any of the neighborhood criminals" and the guy fearing for his safety and livelihood gives them $500 a week. This then is not extortion because the shop owner agrees to the arrangement by remaining in the city, doing business and giving them $500 a week?

Other than legality, what is the moral and practical difference?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2981345 -

This is all so nostalgic for me. I remember coming to this forum and making the exact same arguments TaoTeChing is now making, and watching you and pinksharkmark rip them apart in the exact same manner. *sigh* memories...


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2981522 -


The drug war is very capitalist. Why? Because it's protecting the
system by keeping people concentrated on materialistic goals. If
drugs such as marijuana and psychedelics were legal, it would cause
the system to collapse.


You are making the assertion that drugs lead to an expanding of
consciousness; which always leads a person to be anti-materialistic.
I don't buy that. I remember all of the kids in my high school
who I used to use drugs with. We would get stoned and trip and
we had a lot of fun. But when it all wore off, we all wanted
stuff. We wanted nice cars and nice houses. Getting fucked up
occassionally doesn't automatically turn you into some
anti-materialistic nature loving hippy.

People buy stuff because stuff makes our lives funner, more
interesting, and easier. Getting fucked up isn't going to
change that.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2981560 -

12 year old girls in the sweatshops

not capitalism.

Where we could ban unions

not capitalism.

make them work in horrendous conditions

not capitalism.

you're really on a roll.

Psychedelics don't tend to push capitalist values do they.

i guess not.  :smirk:

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2981626 -

materialism and greed are not requisites for capitalism to exist, nor must one be greedy or materialistic to support capitalism. compassion is not contradictory to capitalism, nor must a compassionate person be opposed to capitalism.

capitalism is merely the absence of coercion in the marketplace. that is all it is. it permits both compassion and greed (so long as it isn't harming anyone), but it doesn't require either.

capitalism is not a system. it requires the absence of a system.

i consider myself to be a compassionate person. i also consider myself fairly non-materialistic. i'm not going to argue that the many psychedelic experiences i've had have not reinforced these traits. i believe they have.

however, i am firm supporter of capitalism. i believe in liberty in the marketplace. collectivist or paternalistic controls on the market are ethically unjustifiable, unwise from a practical economic perspective, and pave dangerous inroads for government regulation of the lives of private citizens. i am not a capitalist because i am greedy, or because i have a raging addiction to consumer products, or because my livelihood depends on "exploiting" those who do. i am a capitalist because capitalism is a good idea.

Edited by mushmaster (08/09/04 01:01 PM)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2981656 -

and we're straying from the original question of the thread without answering it first.

the drug war is not capitalist. even if we assume that it is true that widespread use of psychedelic drugs would result in some kind of revolution and the end of capitalism, and the effort to prohibit their use is actually a defense of capitalism against this threat (a claim i would dispute), this does not make the drug war itself a capitalist venture.

suppose someone wanted to ban socialist literature. this wouldn't be very capitalist at all. people have a right to use their labor, intellect, and creative talents to write books if they wish. they also have a right to exchange these books to other individuals. simply because the ban is an effort to 'defend capitalism' against a percieved threat doesn't make the act of banning production and exchange a "capitalist" act in the least.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2981693 -

It seems to me that 'capitalism' is very much like anarchy, in that it is an unstable state. I would like for anyone to give me an example of a capitalist state that has not eventually collapsed into communism with time.

Capitalism itself may be against monopoly, but the goal of every individual capitalist is monopoly, or 'market dominance'. Much like anarchy, I believe that capitalism almost always collapses into communism or feudalism with time. There is simply nothing to prevent it, and savage fuedalism seems to be right in line with our animal nature.

So, even though i agree that the drug war is very 'anti-capitalist' (in theory), I can see where people are coming from when they say that prohibition is capitalist. Because basically you have a bunch of people trying to make an intrinsically worthless product valuable. I sincerely doubt that if drugs were legalized they would be any kind of commodity. Drug laws are set up by capitalists in order to make their product valuable. Without prohibition, narcotics would be very difficult to 'capitalize on'. So while prohibition might not be capitalist in the archetypical sense of the word, individual capitalists can certainly benefit from prohibition. And many have. Why would the corner drug dealer want prohibition to end? Thats his business! Not to mention private prisons, rehab clinics, courts, govt agencies, etc... Prohibition is big business!!! What motivation do these people have to end prohibition? Certainly not self-interest.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2981732 -


Actually it would, because other oil companies would simply hire people who hadn't taken psychedelics and were happy to undercut the others. The people paying for safety features would be driven out of business by the ones who didn't give a damn. That's capitalism for you.

with which of these statements do you find fault:

1. when you consider the net costs over all individuals affected ("society" if you will), using unsafe ships is costlier than using safe ones.

2. capitalism requires that victims of accidents (especially those caused by negligence such as we're talking about here) be fully compensated for costs incurred.

3. therefore capitalism actually requires that the full cost of using unsafe ships be shouldered entirely by the oil company using them. if there are uncompensated victims, it is non-capitalistic.

4. because of 1, 2, and 3, in a capitalist situation, it is therefore more costly for oil companies to use unsafe ships than safer ones.

5. therefore your statement about capitalism causing oil companies to use unsafe ships because it is cheaper is false.

Edited by mushmaster (08/09/04 01:27 PM)

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Evolving]
    #2981888 -

Evolving said:
TaoTeChing said:
Once again, saying something a lot doesn't make it true. It is not 'stealing' so long as they are tacitly agreeing to the laws of the land by remaining in that land.


Say a group of thugs come to a shop owner and say to him, "give us $500 a week or we'll put you out of business and we will no longer 'protect' you from any of the neighborhood criminals" and the guy fearing for his safety and livelihood gives them $500 a week. This then is not extortion because the shop owner agrees to the arrangement by remaining in the city, doing business and giving them $500 a week?

Other than legality, what is the moral and practical difference?


The practical difference is that in a government a) the shopkeeper has a say in the matter--as do all of the rest of the shopkeepers who can join together as a political group and b) the laws are subject to all citizens. Everyone's first 5,000 dollars they make a year are taxed the same amount, everyone's second 5,000 dollars they make a year are taxed the same amount, and so on.

The moral difference? Well since I have seen precisely no evidence of an objective morality (including so-called 'natural rights'), it makes no diffence. The citizens have different value systems that might or might not object to the above scenario.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2981911 -

Quote:
silversoul7 said (paraphrased):
This is all so nostalgic for me.  I remember coming to this forum and parroting socialist arguments, and watching you and pinksharkmark argue against them. now I just parrot libertarian arguments and don't have to do things like come up with my own ideas or deal with much confrontation.  If you don't have the mental capacity to beat 'em, join 'em.  That's what I always say. Now that I'm part of the significant majority on this board, I can feel superior to those with different views. :smile: *sigh*  memories...


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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