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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2978483 -

Lets face it, psychedelics have their work cut out. The entire culture is based on telling people they are their khakis. Whether psychdelics can reverse that it's hard to say.

All we know for sure is that for the brief few years they were widespread and legal in the culture the capitalists recognised they were such an enormous threat that they needed to be made class A drugs alongside heroin. To me, that indicates they were running scared.

Capitalist values will fall sooner or later - capitalism assumes infinite resources, the planet doesn't have infinite resources. The only question is whether the planet will be so fucked by the time capitalism dies that life on earth dies with it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2978565 -

I personally can't wait for the fall of capitalism! Down with freedom! *giggle*

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: ]
    #2978601 -

no one said psychedelics will completely exclude capitalists. I believe they are saying that anyone who wants to be capitalist will be, but no one will want to.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2978617 -

Morrowind said:
no one said psychedelics will completely exclude capitalists. I believe they are saying that anyone who wants to be capitalist will be, but no one will want to.


Not as much. Values will change. Human life will take precident over money. "Thing fetish" will die.






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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978625 -

Quote:
The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.


psychedelics only push the values the user had when (s)he took the drugs...if ashwipe dropped acid..he would not suddenly morph into dennis kucinich...my hunch is that it would just make him hear god preaching more neocon drivel to him in dick cheneys' voice...

BTW..has anyone actually witnessed a neocon on acid??...

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978627 -

Quote:
Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values.


Even if that happened to you why do you believe everyone would have the same results.

I've tripped hundreds of times and am still the same person.

My values are the same. My consciousness is unchanged.

To think that everyone, or even the majority would have the same shift as you appear to think they would is quite frankly a rather silly belief.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2978701 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Psychedelics would simply cause a mass shift in consciousness and values.


Even if that happened to you why do you believe everyone would have the same results.

I?ve tripped hundreds of times and am still the same person.

My values are the same. My consciousness is unchanged.

To think that everyone, or even the majority would have the same shift as you appear to think they would is quite frankly a rather silly belief.


So the people who were "hippies" in the sixties were like that before they took the drug? I don?t think so.

I saw this show on LSD on the History Channel where this anti-drug guy says "I took LSD and literally overnight I became a barefoot tree-hugging hippie." What do you think happened to thousands of people in the sixties? Psychedelics change people?s lives drastically.






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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978753 -

psychedelics certainly changed my life...

ps: a neocon on acid would be pretty funny

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2978758 -

Quote:
Psychedelics change people's lives drastically.


SOME peoples lives. Some not so drastically. Some not at all.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2978821 -

Alex123 said:
Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group

I think socialist values of caring for your fellow man are far closer to psychedelic values. Certainly the capitalist ideal that greed is good, that profit comes before everything including human life, the environment etc is the complete antithisis of psychedelics. The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


You do realize you are the one applying the connotations of values to psychedelic drugs. It is a complete fallacy. The LSD trade below chemists is VERY capitolistic. People can make $96,000 dollars off 1 gram of crystal. You are blind and hindered by your ignorance on the subject of capitalism and psychedelics. Hey i would love for the world and drugs to be all about love, peace, and brotherhood; but it is not and you need to accept that.

Alex123 said:
This does not contradict capitalism.

The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.



Says you................ which doesn't say much. Just because a bunch of restless, disenfranchised kids attached to a drug world and started a movement means nothing. Fads as well as movements come and go all the time. LSD is just a chemical, its not magic, its not love, its just a hallucinogen. Heck i wish it was more, but it just ain't.


Alex123 said:
That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.

No, it's inherent in the capitalist system. If you own an oil company and sit there wringing your hands saying "We must build safer ships so we don't have oil spills", your competitor simply works with the unsafe ships, undercuts you, pays any pathetic fines imposed for spills, makes more profit and puts you out of buisness. Profit is all that matters. The individual doesn't really matter at all.


In this case it would be up to the consumers to make a difference. If they do, great; if not, thats the problem with freedom.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2979149 -

Alex123 said:
Probably about as likely as a psychedelic socialist group

I think socialist values of caring for your fellow man are far closer to psychedelic values.


You mean forcing people to care for their fellow man?

Quote:
Certainly the capitalist ideal that greed is good, that profit comes before everything including human life, the environment etc is the complete antithisis of psychedelics.


I am a capitalist, and hold none of those ideals. Which capitalists are you talking about?

Quote:
The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No.

Quote:
This does not contradict capitalism.

The values psychedelics push are as contradictory to capitalism as you can get.


I think government intrusion in people's lives is more contradictory to the values I've gained both on and off psychedelics. But that's the thing--psychedelics don't have values. People do.

Quote:
That is in the heart of the individual, not capitalism itself.

No, it's inherent in the capitalist system. If you own an oil company and sit there wringing your hands saying "We must build safer ships so we don't have oil spills", your competitor simply works with the unsafe ships, undercuts you, pays any pathetic fines imposed for spills, makes more profit and puts you out of buisness. Profit is all that matters. The individual doesn't really matter at all.


See my example above.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2979151 -

Alex123 said:
People who have neocon ideas to begin with aren't likely to change those ideas while tripping.

The important thing is that psychedelics are going to open up a whole new world of possibilities for the young. Instead of the billions spent pushing the capitalist, consumerist ideal, a whole new value system will be available.

Taking psychedelics essentially tells people that "You are not your job. You are not the money in your bank account. You are not the car you drive. You are not how much money is in your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis"  :grin:

That's why capitalism and psychedelics are always going to be at  opposite ends of the scale.


You have a very warped view of capitalism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2979157 -

Annapurna1 said:
BTW..has anyone actually witnessed a neocon on acid??...


Not on acid, but I've shroomed with a neocon friend of mine a number of times. Never has he given any indication that his values changed while on shrooms.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2979231 -

Quote:
" The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No."

Actually, yes. It would cost more to spend money on the ships. Cost efficiency is the capitalist's motto.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: vampirism]
    #2979241 -

Morrowind said:
Quote:
" The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No."

Actually, yes. It would cost more to spend money on the ships. Cost efficiency is the capitalist's motto.


What's great about capitalism is that you, the consumer, have the power to affect cost. If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships, then their profits go down and they can no longer afford to keep doing business the way they are doing it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2979259 -

silversoul7 said:
Morrowind said:
Quote:
" The idea of oil companies cynically deciding it's more profitable to pay fines for devastating oil spills than pay for safer ships, or car companies to pay the fines for deaths than improve safety features - that's as far away from psychedelic values as I can possibly imagine.


Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism? No."

Actually, yes. It would cost more to spend money on the ships. Cost efficiency is the capitalist's motto.


What's great about capitalism is that you, the consumer, have the power to affect cost. If people boycott the oil companies who use unsafe ships, then their profits go down and they can no longer afford to keep doing business the way they are doing it.


Lets also not forget that having unsafe ships actually adds to cost. If a ship ruptures and spills oil the company loses both the oil and possibly the ship. Not to even mention the fines and lawsuits.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2979586 -

silversoul7 said:
Capitalism is not the same as materialism.

That is all.


I was going to say exactly this. I believe Learyfan is perceiving capitalism as materialism and mass consumption. However, according to the dictionary:

Quote:
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.



So the drug war goes EXACTLY AGAINST the dictionary definition of capitalism, because it outlaws the economic system for drugs, makes the production and distribution illegal for everyone except the government and takes away the free market, driving it underground. If we lived in a purely capitalistic society, no goods would be illegal, but we don't live in a purely capitalistic society. The government controls many things nowadays


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ravus]
    #2979745 -

:thumbup:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2980030 -

Suppose the people running the oil companies took psychedelics, saw the error of their ways, and started spending the money on safer ships. Would that contradict capitalism?

Actually it would, because other oil companies would simply hire people who hadn't taken psychedelics and were happy to undercut the others. The people paying for safety features would be driven out of business by the ones who didn't give a damn. That's capitalism for you.

I think government intrusion in people's lives is more contradictory to the values I've gained both on and off psychedelics

What "government intrusion" are you talking about? Do you think the National Health Service in the UK is "government intrusion"? Providing free health care to poor people? My grandfather mentioned the other day he had a friend at school who became ill and couldn't afford to pay to see a doctor. He died. (your fabled notion that "charity" will save us all didn't work then either) The value of life isn't something psychedelics have impressed on you?

See my example above.

I did. Your example doesn't work.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Is the drug war anti-capitalist? [Re: Ravus]
    #2980065 -

So the drug war goes EXACTLY AGAINST the dictionary definition of capitalism

The trouble is they encourage people to utterly reject the values of capitalism. If the capitalists attempt to devastate the environment for profit, they have a fight on their hands. If they need to exploit and abuse cheap labour to increase profits, people care for their fellow man and reject it. You simply can't operate capitalism among people where psychedelic values are widespread. The capitalists understand this. Nixon didn't call Leary "the most dangerous man in america" for nothing.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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