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Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? * 1
    #29626033 -

I've been thinking about something lately that I haven't really seen discussed in depth.

Over the years, Psilocybe cubensis cultivation seems to have evolved considerably. A lot of older techniques have gradually been abandoned in favor of simpler, more standardized methods. The general philosophy seems to have shifted toward minimizing unnecessary complexity, reducing contamination risk, improving reproducibility, and asking, "Does this step actually contribute anything?"

In contrast, Panaeolus cyanescens cultivation still appears to rely on many practices that have existed for a long time. That got me wondering whether those differences exist because they are actually biologically necessary, or whether some of them persist simply because the Pan community is smaller and there have been fewer people questioning or systematically testing the established methods.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing from people with experience, especially those who have grown both species.

I'd love to hear about your background.
How long have you been cultivating?
Which species have you worked with?
Have you grown both Cubensis and Pans?
Have you worked with gourmet mushrooms as well?
Where did your methods come from?

Did you mostly learn from:

Shroomery?
Reddit?
Books?
A particular grower?
Trial and error?
Your own experiments?

How much of your current process would you say is inherited versus something you've personally tested?

Have your methods changed?

If you've been around for a while, what have you completely abandoned over the years?

What practices have stood the test of time?
What did you once believe was essential that you now think isn't?
For those who grow both Cubes and Pans...
How different are your philosophies between the two?

Do you believe those differences are:

rooted in actual biological differences between the species,
based on ecological specialization,
based on accumulated empirical evidence,
or simply tradition that's never really been challenged?

The manure question

This seems to be one of the biggest philosophical differences between the two communities.

Modern Cubensis cultivation has largely moved away from manure, while Pan cultivation still seems to strongly favor it.

Do you think that's because:

Pans truly require something unique from dung that Cubes don't?
They're simply more specialized ecologically?
The evidence from decades of growing genuinely supports it?
Or is this an area that hasn't really been revisited because the existing methods already work?

Have you personally experimented with moving away from traditional substrates?
If so, what did you observe?
One thing I'd really appreciate is knowing why you believe what you do.

For example:

Personal side-by-side experiments?
Repeated observations over many grows?
Watching many experienced growers arrive at the same conclusions independently?
Something you've read in the mycological literature?
Biological reasoning?

I don't think there's necessarily a right answer here.

I'm mostly interested in understanding how the community has developed its knowledge, and whether current Pan cultivation represents genuine biological necessity, historical momentum, or some combination of both.

Looking forward to hearing everyone's experiences.

I think this version has a better chance of generating a high-quality discussion because it doesn't challenge anyone's methods or imply that the answer is already known. It frames the topic as a question about how knowledge evolved, which is something experienced growers often enjoy discussing.

Edited by Gastly (07/17/26 01:34 AM)

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: Gastly] * 1
    #29626048 -

Sry I can't really help with this question as I only have experience with Cubes and a year and a half of grows under my belt. Just wanted to leave a comment so I can revisit this post when the more knowledgeable and experienced cultivators answeršŸ™šŸ½šŸ„šŸ©·


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šŸ„ā¤ļø fellow shroomer fam."be the change and kindness you want to see in this world"šŸ™šŸ½ā¤ļø
Noobies guide: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28501530#28501530
Instapot Ez grain Tek:https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/29586605

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: Gastly]
    #29662289 -

I’ve been cultivating 5 years. Cubes and pans. I’m exploring manure-free options. Even well-composted manure stinks.
Non-manure options are discussed here.
Tree frog has been exploring a variety of aspects of pan culture.
These methods aren’t simple compared to PF tek. I’m tinkering to find the least complicated recipe to grow the little bastards. If I find something I will post it in my journal and the official Panaeolus thread.
When I get frustrated I take a break and grow subtrops šŸ˜›

Edited by Imatryin (09/06/26 01:51 AM)

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: Imatryin] * 7
    #29662629 -

That’s like a hour and a half Long interview of questions.. I’m not answering all that :lol:

Pans require different growth parameters than cubes.  The mycelium is more delicate and less robust than cubes.  Their range of needs is narrower than cubensis so, there’s less room for play to get them to perform well.

there has been significant movements with growin pans tho… Baba yagas pans in monos.  The Jcm4620’s ā€œjcm chamberā€.  Phenodreamer’s Dreamer tubs

I’m currently working on pans in ziplocks with lots of success




I use a substrate of cv, plant ferts and worm castings that’s so reliable and cheap, you couldn’t pay me to go back to hpoo.

So moves are/have been made to make pans easier and simpler but they all have to still meets those much narrower parameters that pans require.  My ziplocks aren’t magic; it’s just the container.  I still have to get the bags warm enough and have mid 90% sustained rh with periodic drops to 80-85%… that can be difficult when you’re at the mercy of your ambient room temp and rh.  This is why automated systems are preferred.  Once you find that balance and sit comfortably in that narrow range of parameters, you’re golden… you make this tray and put it in there and it grows well.. then it becomes like growing cubes

While simple and easier is the preference, it can be a complicated process to get there.  I’ve been growing pans in ziplocks for almost a year and I’m still not 100% satisfied with the results… at least the consistency of results.  I’m close but not quite there

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: fahtster]
    #29662788 -

fahtster said:
That’s like a hour and a half Long interview of questions.. I’m not answering all that :lol:

Pans require different growth parameters than cubes.  The mycelium is more delicate and less robust than cubes.  Their range of needs is narrower than cubensis so, there’s less room for play to get them to perform well.

there has been significant movements with growin pans tho… Baba yagas pans in monos.  The Jcm4620’s ā€œjcm chamberā€.  Phenodreamer’s Dreamer tubs

I’m currently working on pans in ziplocks with lots of success




I use a substrate of cv, plant ferts and worm castings that’s so reliable and cheap, you couldn’t pay me to go back to hpoo.

So moves are/have been made to make pans easier and simpler but they all have to still meets those much narrower parameters that pans require.  My ziplocks aren’t magic; it’s just the container.  I still have to get the bags warm enough and have mid 90% sustained rh with periodic drops to 80-85%… that can be difficult when you’re at the mercy of your ambient room temp and rh.  This is why automated systems are preferred.  Once you find that balance and sit comfortably in that narrow range of parameters, you’re golden… you make this tray and put it in there and it grows well.. then it becomes like growing cubes

While simple and easier is the preference, it can be a complicated process to get there.  I’ve been growing pans in ziplocks for almost a year and I’m still not 100% satisfied with the results… at least the consistency of results.  I’m close but not quite there



Toss me the brand n type of plant ferts and worm castings for... Science 🧪 :takingnotes:


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An enigma some caerulescens n a mono šŸ˜Ž

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: bloodssonnew] * 3
    #29662804 -

True organic liquid fert 2-2-2.  Jackpot micronutrients and vermis terra premium worm castings

This is my current recipe per 5 x 7 x 2ā€ meal prep tray:

40g coir
1/2 cup verm
1/2 cup worm castings
1.25 cup water
1.25 ml of both true organic and jackpot ferts.

The cv+ is prepared first with the extra water and then the worm castings are added and that’s vac sealed pasteurized (vac bag is immediately opened to let in air after pasteurization and I use it within a day)

That recipe makes almost a perfect quart of sub so if you want more just scale up as needed.  I always test a batch for field capacity after pasteurizing and usually end up adding a little bit of water.  I’ve also not added water and they colonize fine.  I’ll just water the casings a little extra heavy when I add it on those trays.  You’ll get a feel for it after a few batches

Edited by fahtster (09/07/26 12:48 AM)

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: Gastly]
    #29671914 -

So I have grown pans with completely sterilized manure before. And spawned to coir and verm and had a pretty good grow.

It was kind of a one shot experiment, that I need to repeat, but this is what I did:

I used Rye grass seed (my GOC) mixed with some manure for spawn, and PC'ed my jars.

They colonized rather quickly, pinning in the jars. I then spawned to coco coir/verm with about 2% gypsum.

I actually got pretty good results! I also purposely inoculated the jars multispore without going to agar. Even though it was a risk, the idea was to clone the best specimens, the ones that have adapted better to sterile conditions. Unfortunately, the project got away from me and I never did the cloning. I plan on trying it again this year.

That said, the pans I did grow were rather impressive. The way people had talked made it seem like an impossibility, or at least an extremely poor yield.

When I start I will def post a grow log. I think if I had the luck I had last time, it will be fairly easy to get a sterile condition, producing strain.


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"You develop an instant global consciousness, a people orientation, an intense dissatisfaction with the state of the world, and a compulsion to do something about it. From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, 'Look at that, you son of a bitch.'"

— Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: tbone8352]
    #29697777 -

I’ve successfully fruited panaeolus from cased grain (popcorn and milo), alfalfa pellets and coir, Fahtster’s CV+ and castings, just coir and castings, 100% horse manure, horse manure and straw, lama manure and coir, lama manure and straw.

I have fruited from both pasteurised and sterilised substrate.

I found that out of all of these options the most significant variable was culture quality and that Fahtster’s substrate recipe is the most repeatable and useful substrate. Easily measured, clean and smell free to work with and perfectly capable of producing bountiful and healthy crops. Cased grain was the easiest to fruit but generally produced pretty small fruit and limited crops.

I use a different fertiliser and micronutrients to Fahtster due to regional availability but focus on matching organic nitrogen levels to True Organics. The fertiliser I use has higher P-K values but it doesn’t seem to matter much.

As others have said, I think the much narrower environmental parameters required, additional costs and narrower economic benefit for commercial growers have limited the amount of well documented information in the wider community.

They are more finicky and demand more from us as cultivators and so less people see early success with minimal investment, particularly in locales outside of their natural habitat.

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: MomoMyco]
    #29698961 -

MomoMyco said:
I’ve successfully fruited panaeolus from cased grain (popcorn and milo), alfalfa pellets and coir, Fahtster’s CV+ and castings, just coir and castings, 100% horse manure, horse manure and straw, lama manure and coir, lama manure and straw.

I have fruited from both pasteurised and sterilised substrate.

I found that out of all of these options the most significant variable was culture quality and that Fahtster’s substrate recipe is the most repeatable and useful substrate. Easily measured, clean and smell free to work with and perfectly capable of producing bountiful and healthy crops. Cased grain was the easiest to fruit but generally produced pretty small fruit and limited crops.

I use a different fertiliser and micronutrients to Fahtster due to regional availability but focus on matching organic nitrogen levels to True Organics. The fertiliser I use has higher P-K values but it doesn’t seem to matter much.

As others have said, I think the much narrower environmental parameters required, additional costs and narrower economic benefit for commercial growers have limited the amount of well documented information in the wider community.

They are more finicky and demand more from us as cultivators and so less people see early success with minimal investment, particularly in locales outside of their natural habitat.



Thanks for the reply. I agree. I think Cubensis has been adapted to sterile conditions far more than pans, and they just need a little bit of work and we'll have varieties that fruit like cubensis does in "sterile" substrates. Yours and my experience make me believe it's very doable, but will take a lot of experimenting and time. I'd rather have one bred through sexual selection so it's somewhat consistent in MS.

I'll def do a growalong if I end up doing it, I've got a lot going on right now, i'd love to give it a shot.

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: tbone8352]
    #29700653 -

Cubensis are like weeds of cult , where pans have a far more narrow range of parameters ( specifically tropical active pans...., cinctulus ect also grow like weeds)
There's a lot more room to play with cubes


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I'm tired do me a favor

I'M A MEMBER FIRST, TC WHEN NEEDED AND MOD WHEN I HAVE TO BE !!!

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: cronicr]
    #29700657 -

So little is known bout fungi and our understanding of cultivation is basic for all fungi in my opinion.

There's some small breakthroughs and new methods to cult though not much has changed and not many are trying completely original ideas with proper means of researching and documenting the process :hatsoff:

Some day it might be easy to cultivate all fungi :rockon:


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An enigma some caerulescens n a mono šŸ˜Ž

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: bloodssonnew]
    #29700694 -

I agree that there’s little solid scientific study into active fungi cultivation but some edible mushrooms have been studied extensively. In fact much of the pan wisdom seems to draw on the cultivation of agaricus bisporus in terms of substrate preparation. There’s been lots of work on CO2 tolerance of pans and training for bag grows (beyond Faht’s ziplocs) but I’m not convinced by how far those parameters can be pushed by selective breeding alone.

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Re: Why Has P. Cubensis Cultivation Diverged So Much from Panaeolus Cyanescens ? [Re: MomoMyco]
    #29700702 -

Well for example in the world where many fungi can persis for generations there's obvious bacteria that coexists and possibly is the reason why those fungi can survive in such ways

Just saying there's a small area that's being researched not the bigger picture. At best we learned the basics of a fungus natural capability let alone how it why they act certain ways in different conditions or locations :rockon:

Someone managed to get recurring grows using a tub of spawn n moving it outdoor to a somewhat swampy area for spring summer n moved back indoor for winter n continues to do so 3 years or so later same spawn same tub.

Very little is actually researched or documented on how or why such success is possible :takingnotes:


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An enigma some caerulescens n a mono šŸ˜Ž

Edited by bloodssonnew (10/17/26 04:21 AM)

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