🍄🍄🍄 PANAEOLUS IN MONO TUBS 3.0 🍄🍄🍄
Feb 2023
This is the second update to the Pan In Tubs OP. I have added new findings about fruiting@spawn without casing, an easy substrate prep method and updated the overall philosophy of the OP. Also got rid of some cumbersome bloated blurp just to make room for some more pretentious blah, hope this makes it a bit better. You can find backups of the old versions in my journal.
This is a thread about good old tub growing without the addition of any climate controlling gadgets like foggers, bubblers, fans and timers. The images below are examples of how well this can turn out when genetics and conditions are meeting in the same sweet spot. Copying 100% of what I describe here might not give you the exact same results since we are usually all working with different genetics and materials under somewhat different conditions. That's why focusing too much on details doesn't really make sense and will only distract you from engaging with your grow. This is why you should understand this write up more as the presentation of a concept or framework and not as a TEK as such. The range of species which have been cultivated in tubs with great success includes Panaeolus cyanescensn, cambodginiensis, tropicalis and bisporus. Growing pans with just plain coir has still not achieved a satisfactory result for me but apparently a member here pulled it off and is sending me some spores to try. Others started tests with supplemented coir with great success so there is still some new and exciting stuff happening.
I hope this will spark some interest and it's always great to see new people coming around and sharing their experiences. Just make sure you got the basics down before rocking up to this party. This will include being capable of producing clean spawn and knowing how to pasteurize substrates and casings. Questions are welcome of course. I’m sure that if you persevere, keep your cool and gather some knowledge along the way then there is a good chance that it will play out in your favor.






⭐TABLE OF CONTENTS⭐INTRODUCTIONCULTURE WORK IS KEYHow to find the right Culture
Which Cultures to not waste your Time on?BULK PREPARATION AND CASINGTUBS TUBS TUBSSPAWNING FOR THE LEVEL HEADEDFRUITING STRATEGIESColonizing and Consolidating before Fruiting
Fruiting @ Spawn without CasingMISTING AND BOTTOM WATERINGWHAT TO EXPECT FROM A QUART OF SPAWNFINAL WORDS⭐INTRODUCTION⭐First off, people before me used tubs and just coir/manure for their pan grows and I'm not trying to take credit for what was done before. I have started this thread foremost as a reminder that things doesn't have to be complicated to work well and as an incentive to gather and exchange experiences in the spirit to keep things evolving but simple and the mythmaking at bay. I'm not claiming that any of what I'm saying and doing here is the ultimate truth or exhausting all possibilities either, let's say it's all I know so far but I'm working on it.
The way I am explaining things below might make this whole thing look like a piece of cake but I am doing this almost exclusively since 2017 now and I have to admit that it I'm still fucking things up, especially when I get back into growing pans after a longer break and this is also still a work in progress as I keep learning new things. So what I'm trying to say here is that it will take a bit of practice to get in the groove with these fellas but that would also be the case with other methods which involve the use of humidifiers and such, it's a challenge like most other things in this hobby.
If you don't have a humidifier or air pump and don't want to buy one just to have a go at pans then give tubs a chance. It might work out great or maybe this method is not a good fit for you. In this case there are a lot of other ways that you can check out and which I have linked right below. Point is, you will never know if you don't try it. It will pay off to follow any of the proven TEKs and getting some grows done first before starting to experiment and if you haven't done any mush cult before then start with growing cubensis first.
Here are links to some other pan write ups, just be aware that some of the information in those about what pans like and don't like are outdated or not as strict as it is stated:
Stonesun,
Hindsight,
Coversall,
Asura,
MacMerdin,
jcm4620,
Jakeoncid419 and
mary fairchild...and you should subscribe to the
Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread if you haven't already.
Back to Table of Contents⭐CULTURE WORK IS KEY⭐In order to be successful with panaeolus cultivation in tubs you will need to find the right genetics that will do well in the conditions you are going to provide. Sure, you are going to turn the knobs on the condition side as well but since a tub is obviously not that flexible in this department it all stands or falls with the culture quality. There is no point in trying to pamper a weak, unhappy culture and jump through hoops just to get mediocre results or even nothing at all. While it is fairly easy to obtain robust, tolerant and resistant genetics when working with cubensis, individual panaeolus cultures are often on the more delicate side and appear to only tolerate a narrow spectrum of conditions. This doesn’t mean that pans are totally incapable of growing in very similar conditions that cubensis thrives in, it just takes a little bit more work to find that sweet spot of low demanding genetics that will allow you to grow pans with ease.
A good culture is crucial to a successful grow and it really doesn't matter if a culture fails because of genetic predisposition or because of contamination riding along. In both cases we have to go as far back in the process as necessary and start over. In the past people seemed to have forgotten about factoring in the genetic side of things and where mostly trying to explain failing grows with inadequate conditions or materials instead. This is why panaeolus cultivation went overboard for a while and mutated into a holy grail discipline of dialing in conditions and being very particular with all the things involved, raising red flags around every corner and claiming that growing pans in tubs will only produce measly pin sets and sad looking fruits. Luckily we are getting away from this "consensus" and tub grows of this fine species are becoming more popular again. It really is not that complicated and can be simmered down to this: Hunting down the right set of genes is great fun and will lead you down the path to sustainable happiness. Produce healthy, strong cultures and the mushrooms will grow.
Here are a few novelty grows I did with Nec-D, Wild Coast and Jambos this year and the conditions these were grown in really weren't anything special


Back to Table of ContentsHow to find the right CulturePanaeolus mycelium does look quite different to cubensis mycelium on standard agar recipes. It usually grows more unorganized and tomentose on agar with 2% nutrient content. Once you are starting to transfer away from a germination plates it will pay out to lower the nutrients to 0.5-1%. This will tame the pan myc and does produce a clearer, more organized growth pattern which will allow you to better identify sectoring and making distinct choices for your transfers. You will also have an easier time to recognize contamination. I don't really believe in telling people what good growth looks like cause cultures can look different because of small differences in recipes and actually also for no obvious reason at all. The best growth is the one that looks healthy and grows fast.
Since good genetics are the object of desire, it is only logical that the MS culture work is going to be streamlined to get to cloneable material as fast as possible. For this reason the first goal is to get clean MS genetics to grain, a cake or just a BRF puck as soon as possible, add a little bit of manure to the standard recipes. When you are new then getting these first fruits is probably the biggest hurdle to overcome. Chances to get there are higher when starting with a number of different MS cultures and expose them to some basic fruiting conditions. Once you got your first mushrooms to clone, things should become easier. Theoretically the clone cultures derived from those first fruits should give you a better performance under the same conditions provided but it's not guaranteed that all clones will preform well so take a whole bunch.
Here a few images of germination plates and T1 MS cultures:

In practice this is just like any other strategy in the hunt for good genetics and if you have done this for cubensis then you know the ins and outs.
Here is the principal workflow that I follow in bullet points:
- Germinate spores on agar (1-2% nutrients)
- Take first transfers to new agar (0.5-1% nutrients)
- Clean up culture till suitable to move on (usually between T1 and T3)
- Take culture to grain, let colonize and spawn or inoculate a bottle/cake
- Take clones to water agar
- Clean up clones (0.5-1% nutrients)
- Take clone cultures to grain and test performance
Below are images of clones on
water agar and a couple T1 clone cultures which often do show more pronounced sectoring.

Once you have tested your clones and actually found some genetics that are doing fairly well then you can start dialing in conditions and hopefully you will be able to circle in on the sweet spot that will make for a nice grow.
Back to Table of ContentsWhich Cultures to not waste your Time on?I am very fast when it comes to throwing things out in case grows are not performing the way I expect them to. Why things are going badly is not so much of my concern because I don't have the means to correlate my observations with hard scientific facts and my record keeping is not up for the task either, so I don't really spend much time coming up with theories that are based on thin air. It all is either genetics or contamination anyway and I don't need to know more cause it wouldn't make a difference for the workflow. All I need to know is that a culture is not performing with my setup or it's looking sick for some reason and out it goes. Here are a few reasons why I throw a culture out:
Aborting when misted: I always mist fruits directly from the beginning, if they all or pertially abort after a mist then I know something is up. I really don't want to waste my time syringe watering a bunch of tubs.
Insane clustering: when ever that happened the fruits would stall and eventually abort and if they not abort the harvest would be a pain and not be worthwhile bothering with.
Peeling stems, internal bruising and banana growth: this one can show really early and sometimes holding off with misting improves the situation but if that is not happening then fruits will not develop well, they are very fragile and IME contamination is not far away.
Gnarly or unhealthy looking fruits: I rarely came across an alright flush of gnarly looking fruits, mediocre at best. Had a few tubs with nice canopies of really short, deformed fruits which looked nice but which was not worthwhile harvesting. There are also unhealthy looking fruits, hard to describe this precisely as differences are more subtle like different proportions, a different color and a faint bruising. Those can do kind of alright but are still no keeper in my book.
Back to Table of Contents⭐BULK PREPARATION AND CASING⭐I used various mixes of h-manure, compost, straw and coir and they all worked well. The main thing is to keep the mix from getting soggy so it stays well aerated. I run substrates with at least 20% manure or compost in them and this is working great for me.
There are a couple of myths surrounding the pan substrate requirements. One says that you need straw to aerate the substrate sufficiently and the other is that you have to use field aged manure. Both of these are good ingredients for a pan substrate but they are certainly not a requirement. I personally don't use straw at all but use coir instead and the manure I use is not field aged.
For more information about how I prep my substrates read
LMP - The Easy Way To Coir-Manure Based Substrates

Currently I am making good efforts in not using a casing at all in my pan tubs. Side by side grows with clones where only half the surface was cased and a number of tubs without any casing showed no significant difference in overall performance. No casing worked best when fruiting conditions were applied directly at spawn (see below for further details on this). I do acknowledge though that some of you might have to apply a casing due to dryer climate conditions but I would also recommend to try it at least once without if you haven't already.
If you prefer or need to apply a casing layer then use the standard recipe for a peat moss & vermiculite casing:
- 10 parts peat
- 10 parts vermiculite
- 1/4 part hydrated lime
Pasteurize this with your favorite method.
Back to Table of Contents⭐TUBS TUBS TUBS⭐The mono tubs I use look like this....just a bunch of tubs, eh:

The holes on the modified tubs are 34mm. Tub volume is 32 liters (6 hole tub) and 24 liters (4 hole tub). The undodded tub is 27 liters.
Member kirkeng convinced me with his well performing unmodified tubs to give unmodded a try and I have to say that these are my new favorites. With those I fruit right at spawn and run subs without a casing. The lid goes on upside down and I use 4 blobs of blue-tak
tm or synthetic modelling clay to create a gap of 5-8mm all around. If you want to stack your tubs then use something rigid for better support.
Back to Table of Contents⭐SPAWNING FOR THE LEVEL HEADED⭐I use 1 myco quart per tub and depending on the tub size I use enough substrate to get a sub thickness of 1.5 to 2.5 inches which makes my spawn ratio vary between 1:2 and 1:4. Nothing is written in stone here and all of this works just fine. I try to get my bulk substrate as even as possible. This is optional but it helps to get a more evenly colonized surface which in return helps with a more even pin set IMO.
First I dump the bulk and spawn in a tub and mix it all up. Check the sides and bottom of the tub to make sure it's all evenly mixed. Then I use a trowel to create an even surface. I don't compress the substrate much, mainly just leveling and smoothing it out.

Once that is done I apply a top layer between 1/4 and 1/2 an inch. You will have to play around with the thickness a bit and see
what works best for you. This gets treated the same way as described above.


Looking from the side the substrate looks somewhat like this.
Back to Table of Contents⭐FRUITING STRATEGIES⭐ The two fruiting strategies I'm describing below are very different from each other and this might be confusing. For example, in the first strategy I say to let the substrate consolidate first by cutting back FAE to almost zero and in the other method I say give lots of FAE right from the starts and don't freak out if the surface dries out a little bit. This may sound contradictory to you but it is actually supporting my point that pans can deal with both these conditions given the right cultures are at work. I had pan cultures which were doing well with most things I threw at them although the consensus at the time was theorizing over something very different.
So I am inclined to say that you safe yourself the hustle to read through all of this blah blah below and start by fruiting pans just like you would fruit cubes. Run a few MS cultures, clone, test, tweak it a bit on the condition side once you found something half decent or better and you will be fine. These simply fruited bottles and the unmodified tubs uncased and fruited@spawn are another example that this is absolutely possible.

So yeah, think about it, you might as well stop reading and start cultivating now......but if you like to stay for the rest then keep reading and ask me questions if you have to just don't try nailing me down on the details too much and instead try to understand this more as a concept and not so much as definite instructions.
Ok, so here are the two very different fruiting strategies that I have successfully applied but my experiments so far included a lot of grows that used conditions somewhere in between those two extremes like when I fruited unmodified tubs at different times after spawn. You can read up on this experiment here:
Uncased Pan Tubs fruited at different TimesCOLONIZING AND CONSOLIDATING BEFORE FRUITING
OLD SCHOOL 

Bottom holes taped shut with masking tape and top holes taped up halfway with masking tape and a double layer of Micropore tape over the other half.
When using an unmodified tub the lid stays on for the colonization period. This is obviously not an airtight lid and allows for a little bit of GE.

After full colonization of the surface I let the tub consolidate for 2-3 more days. Casing earlier than that will increase the chance of getting overlay in my experience and first pins won't show up any faster anyway. Overlay is not a deal breaker but it's better to avoid it.
Letting the substrate consolidate after full colonization looks like this when I run Pan Cambos. As you can see there are some beads of yellow forming on the surface but this is normal and no reason for concern.
Once the substrate has consolidated it is time for the casing. I prep the casing a little bit under field capacity which helps to get it on as thin as possible cause it's clumping less. It should be just thick enough to cover the mycelium. Look at the first photo below and you will see the mycelium still shining through the casing in a few spots...it's that thin.

Fruiting conditions are applied straight after casing. I increase FAE for fruiting by removing one of the Micropore layers on the top holes and leave half of the bottom holes covered by a strip of Micropore tape like pictured below. This is how I initiate fruiting and it's the minimum of FAE I'm giving to kick things off. I might open things up more later on.

With the unmodified tub I flip the lid and use some Plasticine or BlueTak to create a 5-8mm gap to initiate fruiting.
PROS & CONS OF THIS METHODThis method is set and forget during the colonization phase, I spawn and leave it alone till it's time to case. A down side is that the pin set can be uneven with some bigger clusters in some spots and not much in between. Side pins can also happen sometimes. All in all a bit unpredictable but it can turn out really good yields when everything goes right. Not entirely sure why the behavior is so erratic. Maybe it's a timing thing of too much or too little FAE at the wrong or right time. I haven't figured that out yet.
Back to Table of ContentsFRUITING @ SPAWN WITHOUT CASING
NEW SCHOOL

Fruing@Spawn with modified tubs means that the bottom holes are covered with 1-2 layers of Micropore Tape and the top holes are not covered at all. Have a look at
the next post after this one where I documented how I've done this for the first time by mistake.

Usually I don't have to mist till first knots appear. The surface starts to dry out a little bit but that also keeps the mycelium from colonizing the surface too much so it's actually a good thing cause the surface remains open and adsorbs water more readily. Knots are still forming despite the drier surface conditions. Once the whole surface is showing at least a few knots all over I give the tub a first light mist and the next day even more knots and maybe first pins should have appeared. The next two photos showing nicely what this looks like.

At this point I open up the bottom holes more by reducing the MP tape to one layer or even have the bottom holes only covered half and use masking or MP tape to cover half of the top holes.

With the unmodified tub I flip the lid right after spawn and use some Plasticine or BlueTak to create a 5-8mm gap. This doesn't change throughout the grow.
PROS & CONS OF THIS METHODThis will need a bit of attention in the first days just to make sure that things are not getting too dry. As I said the substrate color turning lighter in a few areas is not a problem and I have a feeling that the drier surface actually helps with the health of the grow but that is just a theory. Once more knots and pins are coming in and misting begins then this is just the same amount of maintenance as the other method. One big pro is not having to prepare a casing layer. This is great stuff not only because of the saved time and cost but also one thing less to fuck up. Yield wise this method has produced some nice full flushes for me but from my experience so far the fruits would be more delicate and lighter than with a cased substrate. Subsequent flushes will make up for this though and on average this method ties with the other one in terms of total wet weight.
Back to Table of Contents⭐MISTING AND BOTTOM WATERING⭐ As I said before, I mist my fruits directly and would not have it any other way. If the mushrooms don't like it then they will have to move out onto the compost. Funny thing though is that I rarely come across a grow where fruits absolutely abort when misted, maybe that is because I throw things out for other reasons before I actually start misting.
In the first few days when fruits are just developing up to where they are getting about 1 inch tall I apply a light indirect mist as needed but after that I give them a good soaking once a day. Misting only leads to bruising or aborts when fruits are drying out too much but the way I run my tubs this only ever happens to a few fruits close to a tub hole. It's not a big deal.
Directly misted but happy fruits:
Fruits next to the holes that have dried up too much do bruise blue after misting. Small pins abort when this happens, bigger
fruits get stunned a little bit but rarely abort.
I also bottom water when I think it's necessary to make sure a good flush has more than enough water to pump up. A cup of water down the side and the water goes about half way up the the substrate. The first cup gets usually adsorbed quickly so I often put in another cup and leave it be. This has never caused any trouble for me. The water turns more or less yellow after a while and some might think that this is a dead giveaway for the presence of metabolites but if you think about it, common substrate ingredients are coir, manure, compost and straw and all of these materials will turn clear water yellow or brown which means I am not getting concerned as long as the grow is happy.
Back to Table of Contents⭐WHAT TO EXPECT FROM A QUART OF SPAWN⭐ The way I grow I do expect 300-400g wet per quart from a decent tub over 2-3 flushes depending on the method of fruiting and whether a casing layer was applied or not. I am pretty sure that tents/marthas will give a better yield or BE overall but not having to build and maintain one of these is an advantage which does make up for some of the difference. Would be great to know how much the difference on average is though which is why I wished that more people would keep a record of their wet weight in relation to the amount of spawn that went in, so we could compare the different grow methods in terms of yield and also to finally establish a rule of thumb of what to expect from a quart of spawn like we have done with cubes. So please, please, please with sugar on top, do weigh your flushes and post the wet or dry weight here so we can get to the bottom of this.
In my last grow season I had half of the clone tubs produce an average of 350g wet. The rest was somewhere between 200 and 300 over 2-3 flushes.
Most pans that I came across have an average water content of ~95%. A wet weight of 300-400g does then roughly translate to a dry weight of 15-20g. Now I'd say that these fruits are at least 3 times stronger than your average cube. This means that I often end up with the equivalent amount of alkaloids as in 1.5-2 oz of dried standard cubes. Not bad for one myco quart of spawn.
Back to Table of Contents⭐FINAL WORDS⭐There is always more room for experimentation. Some of the things I’d like to try out in the future are:
- Figuring out the water and FAE requirements throughout the grow. (thinking one or both can be reduced quite a bit)
- After refining my fruiting methods and getting heaps of practice it is time to reevaluate the performance of MS genetics as some folks have posted some killer MS grows.
- Testing out supplemented coir as substrate which seems to be the next big thing in pan cult.
- Running more MS grows with coir only cause so far I have not found a culture that did well on just coir.
Coming to the end of this I like to pay my respect to those who have created this place and helped me to hone my skills by providing write ups and advice and who inspired me to help other in this hobby, the list is endless. I am thankful for all the information that has been provided regardless if I agree with it or not cause it helped me to develop my skills in one way or the other and I do respect the effort that went into creating a resource. I would certainly not be at this point if I had blindly believed everything that has been said which is why in my opinion challenging a current consensus is crucial for progress and by challenging I mean to do the work, knuckle down and providing proof as much as possible and not just talk crap. Needless to say one has to know the ins and outs of the hobby as well.
To sum this up:
"Stay critical but don't be a dick about it."Well, hopefully you have enjoyed this deep dive into my take on Pan cultivation. As you can see, growing panaeolus in monotubs does work well for a lot of the potent species and varieties of the genus and whoever says otherwise should go and suck a sandpaper dick

Thanks for reading!

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