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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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A legal cultivar of cubensis possible?
    #2181763 - 12/16/03 05:14 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

This is primarily about American law, but also Canadian, and international law...


Would it be possible to isolate a clone of cubensis that produced absolutely no illegal substances?


If so then (in America as I understand the law) this clone could be legally circulated, and cultivated. This would, I believe, furthur the science of Psilocybe cubensis cultivation greatly. Many of our most talented people are unable to participate in the cubensical sciences because they decided that the legal risks were too great.


I think if you think about it for a moment, all kinds of benefits can be imagined that could be gained from the existance of a legal cultivar of cubensis.

Anyone care to guess how this might be done, and how low a psilocybin content is even possible in a cubensis?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler] * 2
    #2181778 - 12/16/03 05:33 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

What a horrible idea :frown:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: G a n j a]
    #2181785 - 12/16/03 05:37 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I guess no one would be interested in a psylo mushroom without psylocybin. Thats like growing edibles that one cannot eat. The sense of cultivating that mushroom would get lost.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2181788 - 12/16/03 05:40 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

To me its stinks of the geneticly mutated opium poppys that don't produce opium :frown: that certain aggencies are spreading the pollen of around the fields of afghanistan :frown: in a bid to rid the world of heroin :frown:

It could easyerly spread back into wild populations of cubensis taking the magic away from them :frown:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2181789 - 12/16/03 05:40 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I am shocked at the lack of imagination here.

Do you both presume that there is no other reason to cultivate cubensis other than to get "fucked up"?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: G a n j a]
    #2181792 - 12/16/03 05:42 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

That would not be an issue.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2181794 - 12/16/03 05:43 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

how so?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: G a n j a]
    #2181796 - 12/16/03 05:44 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Are you aying that the us goverment couldnt use it as a tool ? against what they deem to be evil ?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: G a n j a]
    #2181811 - 12/16/03 05:57 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Even if such a cultivar were isolated, it's spores would still produce mushrooms that produce psilocybin. It would have to be distributed in the form of wedges and plates.

That would also mean that spore prints could be legally produced. The "strain" (spore descendants of the cultivar) might mutate and become stable over time. A new legal cultivar would probably have to be created to replace the old worn out stock.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2181870 - 12/16/03 07:18 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Seems to me more could be lost than what could be gained.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2181876 - 12/16/03 07:23 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I find cubensis very decorative , so it could be an issue to legal cultivation .Poppies are legally cultivate in garden , so why not this fucking shrooms ?!!!
Laws must be respect , but we should respect people who learn by themself !


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: G a n j a]
    #2181885 - 12/16/03 07:33 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

That's fine, but not what this thread is about.

This thread is about growing mushrooms with zero psilocybin, et. al. and how to go about doing it.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2181902 - 12/16/03 07:44 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I can send you an oyster culture if you like :grin:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: G a n j a]
    #2181913 - 12/16/03 07:51 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

There are significant differences. Pleurotus species cannot be presumed to behave identical to a cubensis in cultivation.

Sensitivity to oxygen and CO2 levels, nutritional requirements, reaction to temperature changes.

If you have a culture of pleurotus that behaves exactly as a cubensis then yes, I would be interested.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2181942 - 12/16/03 08:05 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

ok, you would use such a genetic mutant for studying the growth parameters of cubensis species. And then ? A lot of people are just studying the growth parameters with "real" cubensis. I think that alone would not be worth the effort. And who says that such a clone has really the same properties as a "real" cubensis. I am almost sure that this mutant won't have the same needs concerning the substrate it grows on. Since it does not produce psylocibin etc. it would not need the same nutrients.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2181952 - 12/16/03 08:14 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

It would not be a mutant, it would be an individual with specific traits.

A trait that would allow it to be studied scientifically in far greater detail than it currently now is.

I know of several experiments I would like to try, but I'm not in a position where I can take the chance on breaking the law. If there were legal cultivars (look it up) anybody could perform unlimited experiments on these cultivars.


It could be grown legally for harvesting spores that would probably still produce normal amounts of psilocybin.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2182133 - 12/16/03 09:43 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That would also mean that spore prints could be legally produced.




i think you've come up with a great idea, for that reason alone.

legal cubensis mushrooms would probably allow the science of the mushroom to be advanced some as well, but i imagine that there would be no ground-breaking discoveries. when cultivating the cubensis mushroom, most cultivators are concerned with two main things: growth and potency.

two reasons why i think there isn't much to benefit from studying a legal strain of cubensis:

1. they have been studied in the past. we already know what is in them and how to grow them.

2. the most interesting studies would revolve around psilocybin content. a legal cubensis would make those studies impossible.

like i said, you have a good idea. i'd love to have some monster cubies growing in my front yard, without having to worry about the cops going rodney on me. i'd also love to be able to mass produce spore prints legally. it would also be nice to walk into a lab at my school with a cubensis culture and have fun cultivating there. if i knew how to do what you have in mind, i'd do it.

Quote:

I know of several experiments I would like to try, but I'm not in a position where I can take the chance on breaking the law.




well, what are they? some people here are in a position to experiment.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2182136 - 12/16/03 09:52 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Enrighing the oxygen levels in a terrarium, and using hydrated lime, and/or lye to remove CO2.

I'd like to study the dynamics of a closed system cubensis grow with supplemented oxygen.

Perhaps lime could be mixed with perlite and a circulation fan installed. Oxygen could be produced by decomposition of Hydrogen peroxide, or electrolysis of water. It may be nessisary to vent the Hydrogen produced by electrolysis.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2182160 - 12/16/03 10:13 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

are you getting your ideas from a previous experiment or is this just something you thought up and wanted to try? if you came up with this, what gave you the idea?

a gas tank, along with a pressurized air system, could probably be used to circulate pure oxygen through a sealed terrarium. would that be overkill?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2182200 - 12/16/03 10:42 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Who knows.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2182312 - 12/16/03 11:38 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps something like this would answer the question; why do mushrooms produce psilocybin and psilocin?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: YidakiMan]
    #2182328 - 12/16/03 11:42 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

That question had been asked a million times.

I don't think anybody knows yet.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2182420 - 12/16/03 12:12 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

i understand wher you're coming from, and i agree. research on these mushrooms would be a wonderful thing. But i totally disagree with trying to genetically alter them. If you want to study them then take the risk. Its for the sake of science, right?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: zbgeed]
    #2182433 - 12/16/03 12:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Who said anything about genetically altering anything!?

I'm talking about finding one mushroom that contains zero psilocybin, and cloning it, and distributing live cultures of it.


That's all.


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OfflineGranola
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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: YesItsMe]
    #2182717 - 12/16/03 01:54 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YesItsMe said:
I find cubensis very decorative , so it could be an issue to legal cultivation .Poppies are legally cultivate in garden , so why not this fucking shrooms ?!!!
Laws must be respect , but we should respect people who learn by themself !




Poppies are not legal for cultivation in the US with out permits and for those your name needs to be Pfizer or Rhorer, DEA see a poppy in your yard they take you to jail


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2183207 - 12/16/03 04:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think there is any substrain of cubensis that doesn't produce the goodies.

You would have to genetically modify the mushroom to make a key enzyme unavaliable, so no goodies are produced.

That would probably be transfered to spores. Potentially it could harm wild cubensis populations.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ]
    #2183242 - 12/16/03 04:34 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

It may not matter unless there is precicely zero illegal chemicals in it. Hemp contains a few Parts Per Million of THC, but is still legal.

Cubensis though, I don't think the law would allow even one average dose in a pound of dried fruitbodies. It would have to be perfectly and completely incapable of producing actives.

That seems likely to require some actual genetic modification. The only method I can think of that would be practical to use would just be simple selection. It would not be very practical to try selective pressure, or any breeding techniques.

Selection alone may be able to do it, but it may require testing millions of fruitbodies.

I wish search were working right now. I know I've seen people report mushrooms that did absolutely nothing even in large quantity.

Seems like PR's were particularly capable of producing duds.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ]
    #2183246 - 12/16/03 04:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Can you think of any additives that could be used in the substrate that would prevent production of socially unacceptable molecules?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2183681 - 12/16/03 07:13 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Processed hemp contains very little , but the living plant contains enough that it remains illegal in the usa. You can't get high on the stuff, but it is still illegal.

I have never found a dud. I guess if you did some serious single cell cultures, you might find a cell that doesn't have the ability, and then grow out cultures from that single cell.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2183711 - 12/16/03 07:25 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
This is primarily about American law, but also Canadian, and international law...


Would it be possible to isolate a clone of cubensis that produced absolutely no illegal substances?


If so then (in America as I understand the law) this clone could be legally circulated, and cultivated. This would, I believe, furthur the science of Psilocybe cubensis cultivation greatly. Many of our most talented people are unable to participate in the cubensical sciences because they decided that the legal risks were too great.


I think if you think about it for a moment, all kinds of benefits can be imagined that could be gained from the existance of a legal cultivar of cubensis.

Anyone care to guess how this might be done, and how low a psilocybin content is even possible in a cubensis?




Maybe we could breed a no-THC content marijuana and spends lotsof money and time learning to grow it too! And mescaline-less peyote!

Or, you could grow any of the other tens of thousands of types of non-illegal, sporulating, mushrooms in existance. You could grow a number of edible mushrooms, I'm not sure which specific genus / species of mushrooms would work, that reproduce and grow like p. cubensis


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2184126 - 12/16/03 10:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Even if such a cultivar were isolated, it's spores would still produce mushrooms that produce psilocybin.




Not really. If you knocked out the gene and it can reproduce the offspring wouldn't produce it, either, unless it mated with a fungus that was active....

That's not the problem -- the problem is that noone cares.

If you want LBMs for asthetic value grow non active LBMs. Noone will care enough to study non-active psilocybe mushrooms. If there was any reaon to study active species it can be done, but noone does because noone cares enough to offer a grant. Unless there's some monetary value involved in the research or some interest by the benefactor there's not going to be any money put into the research....

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Edited by micro (12/16/03 10:22 PM)


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2184591 - 12/17/03 02:53 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

why do mushrooms produce psilocybin and psilocin?




Quote:

That question had been asked a million times.

I don't think anybody knows yet.




There is a simple explanation. Psilocybin gene had an advantage in evolution because the mammals helped mushrooms that had it to spread their spores. They formed a symbiotic relationship with mammals.

(/me puts a helmet on in anticipation of anti-evolutionists counter strike :grin: )


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2184808 - 12/17/03 08:02 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)


All of that would depend on how it was done, which will depend on how it can be done. If certain permutations of alleles have this effect, and an individual could be found with one of these combinations, then it's spore offspring would posses all of the alleles needed to produce the chemo/phenotype, but only a few would consist of a non-active permutation of those alleles.

In other words I'm looking for a natural born mushroom with this characteristic. It may or may not be out there somewhere, but if it is I'll find it, and when I find it youll see...


YOU'LL ALL SEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111



[rubs hands maniacally]


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185206 - 12/17/03 12:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

?syntax error.

Permutaion = mutation? If something's DNA is mutated then it will transcribe it to the offspring if it can reproduce. The chances of randomly gaining the ability back are even less (to a great extent) because a point mutation or whatever can happen in a lot of places and mess up the pathway but the chances of the random mutating of that particular spot back to what it was is pretty much null.

You might be able to inhibit the production of psilocybin with something like glyphosate, though, or RNAi....

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185216 - 12/17/03 12:10 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Wouldnt glyphosate affect the taking up of water and its movement
inside the mushroom, as it does in plants? Making it dry out and die?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185221 - 12/17/03 12:11 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

BTW -- there would be 2 copies of the gene, anyway, unless it's only a monokaryote we're talking about.

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: G a n j a]
    #2185225 - 12/17/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wouldnt glyphosate affect the taking up of water and its movement
inside the mushroom, as it does in plants? Making it dry out and die?




Glyphosate is an inhibitor of 5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate (EPSP) synthase in the shikimic acid pathway.

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185330 - 12/17/03 01:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

No, we're not talking about any genetic mutation at all. Permutation = combination in a particular order.


123 231 312 321 213 132 are all different permutations of the same combination.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185340 - 12/17/03 01:24 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

It's a mushroom, not a combination lock.

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185393 - 12/17/03 01:46 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I apologize if first year college algebra is over your head.

I'm surprised that you fail to see how this applies to genetics, Perhaps your claims of knowledge are overstated.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185489 - 12/17/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe if you were a bit constructive this conversation could go somewhere. Honestly, I'm getting sick of you posting insults to this board (this is the second one in addition to the one you edited or deleted) to people who know way more than you about the subject.

I answered your question, already -- why don't you try round-up like I suggested? I'm sure, though, that you already knew glyphosate inhibited 5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate synthase and I'm sure you also came to the conclusion, based on your knowledge of enzymatic pathways, that this would inhibit psilocybin production, right off the top of your head, too.

No, I guess I'm just not that smart.

When you ask a question, I'll answer it, like I did here. If you want me to explain my response please ask me to, but quit insulting people on this board who are trying to help.

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185522 - 12/17/03 02:38 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

BTW -- if you add roundup you may need additional supplements in the media if it can no longer produce them in situ. I don't know if round-up would kill the fungus without supplements or not.

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185609 - 12/17/03 03:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, I don't trust your "information" so please do not respond to my threads in the future.

Thanks.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185627 - 12/17/03 03:30 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

micro said:
BTW -- there would be 2 copies of the gene, anyway, unless it's only a monokaryote we're talking about.

--
Micro





Are you suggesting that psilocybin production is regulated by one gene? If you can site a reference for that that I can check, I will give you due credit.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185770 - 12/17/03 04:34 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Actually, I don't trust your "information" so please do not respond to my threads in the future.




Aren't you the one who said you could sequence DNA with an $80 childrens' toy? Wowwww.... You must be a genius, there, kiddo.... Especially in the field of genetics. If anyone would like to see this person make an ass out of theirself, please read this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...;o=&fpart=1

Quote:

Are you suggesting that psilocybin production is regulated by one gene? If you can site a reference for that that I can check, I will give you due credit.




Yes, I am. Things are controlled by one gene. There is one gene for each enzyme. You can have multiple copies of the RNA made, but it's controlled by one gene.

It's not multi-allelic because the genes code for enzymes.

I guess you don't have to believe me, but you obviously have proven that you know nothing about genetics. I don't see how you can argue with someone who works in microbiology about microbiology -- you want to play? I'll make your fucking head spin -- I can prove you know nothing because you don't.

Of course, there are many people like you in this world, who think they're the expert on subjects which they haven't a fucking clue, but you don't realize that by being ignorant you're just less of a person.

If you want serious discussion I'm all about it, but I'm not a second-grader, and I don't think like a second grader.

Happy trails you fucking baby....


hitler

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Edited by micro (12/17/03 04:50 PM)


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185811 - 12/17/03 04:52 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I don't see how you can argue with someone who works in microbiology about microbiology -- you want to play? I'll make your fucking head spin -- I can prove you know nothing because you don't.





I don't see how you can argue with a person who works in a castle on the moon. Why should I or anyone believe you?

You can make up facts you can't prove all day to try and make someone's "head spin". You can prove you know things, (the flushable toilet was invented by Thomas Crapper) but can you prove that those things mean what you say they mean?

You still haven't proven that there is a single gene that regulates the amount of psilocybin produced.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185837 - 12/17/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
You still haven't proven that there is a single gene that regulates the amount of psilocybin produced.




and nobody will be able to prove, or disprove, it until extensive research is done.

bring on the experiments.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2185843 - 12/17/03 05:02 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You sir have a heart the size of an elephant's testicles! :wink: :thumbup: :stoned: :thumbup:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185850 - 12/17/03 05:06 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You still haven't proven that there is a single gene that regulates the amount of psilocybin produced.




Find me some multiple copies of genes encoding enzymes on the Shikimic Acid Pathway:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1432-1327.1999.00244.x/full/

....if you can read and understand it. Sometimes a locus will duplicate, but that's rare, especially in this case -- it's almost always one gene on one locus.

--
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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185853 - 12/17/03 05:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

what you didn't know is that i also have testicles the size of an elephant's. i have a seat everywhere i go.

i really do wish there were more resources (funds, labs, people) available to research shrooms. until laws change though, i don't see that happening.  :sad:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185867 - 12/17/03 05:12 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract

....do a search for more, if you want. You won't find anything, except maybe some duplications, maybe, but that's pretty much it. When that happens, though, both of them work, anyway.

--
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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #2185886 - 12/17/03 05:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

what you didn't know is that i also have testicles the size of an elephant's.




http://elephantiasis.freeyellow.com/

--
Micro


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185887 - 12/17/03 05:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

"Ergot alkaloids are synthesised from several pathways. "

http://bugs.bio.usyd.edu.au/Mycology/feed/SecondaryMetabolites/SecMetabText.htm

Ergot alkaloids are synthesised from several different pathways (which would definitely mean more than one gene influences production) On what do you base your assumption that this cannot be true for psilocybin?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2185919 - 12/17/03 05:32 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I can see how your theory that glyphosate could inhibit psilocybin production is plausable, but unfortunately, the only method I have to determine potency is to eat the mushroom.

glyphosate is too toxic to allow me to do that, however, if it could be proven to work reliably there would be no reason to eat mushrooms grown with it. Unfortunately it may have such an impact on the health of the fungus that the result would still be unusable.

But it is a possibility.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185925 - 12/17/03 05:35 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

A pathway is not an enzyme. Like I said above -- each enzyme is encoded by a single gene.

There aren't many copies of each gene, so you can't breed a mushroom to not produce psilocybin (or produce it in extremely minute quantities.) You need to have a mutation on the pathway.

I didn't say that the whole shikimic acid pathway, tryptophan pathway and psilocybin pathway is encoded by one gene, it's a bit obvious that it's not....

Honestly, you're boring the shit out of me so I'm going offline to smoke a bowl. I'll be back on tomorrow just incase anyone has anything interesting to say.

--
Micro


Edited by micro (12/17/03 05:49 PM)


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2186016 - 12/17/03 06:16 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Micro got Baby Hitler 0wn3nd. I stand by what Micro says. He knows his shit. So dont question what he states.

That is all. Carry on.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2186024 - 12/17/03 06:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

micro said:
Quote:

what you didn't know is that i also have testicles the size of an elephant's.




http://elephantiasis.freeyellow.com/eleph-fiji.gif



elephantitas of the balls. lol


Edited by Paul808996 (12/17/03 06:22 PM)


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2186174 - 12/17/03 07:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Also your magic scientist powers have overlooked the possibility that there may be some genes that produce enzymes that may inhibit or disrupt production of psilocybin at different stages.

Maybe tomorrow we'll get into the fact that you have suggested that:

1.) there is only one gene that influences production of psilocybin.

2.) this gene is "not multi-allelic", which would mean that all cubensis mushrooms have the same allele for production of psilocybin.

This would mean that there can be no variation in potency due to genetics. Last I recall, popular opinion was that this is not true.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2186351 - 12/17/03 08:11 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2186357 - 12/17/03 08:16 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ]
    #2187710 - 12/18/03 11:13 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Rather than reinvent the wheel so to speak why not  work with a closely related genera such as Naemataloma or Stropharia? Is it to determine the biopahways of tryptamine metabolism? Tag some Trypt with a radioisotope and do it right.Attempting to make the equivilent of "hemp" out of Ps.cubensis is an inefficient and round about way of studying biosynthesis.Rather it is the standard assay techniques which would probably give rise to what conditions or genetics are required to produce a non-active cubensis.
WR:rasta:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2188024 - 12/18/03 02:12 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I really just want a mushroom that is as geneticly close as possible to Psilocybe cubensis that can be cultivated legally.

What would you reckon would be cubensis's closest legal relative?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2188258 - 12/18/03 03:44 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Baby Hitler - The closest relative yet to be determined - by DNA evidence - of the clade of psilocybin-producing lineages that includes Psilocybe cubensis, is an obscure species called Pachylepyrium funariophilum. The non-psilocybin producing species of Psilocybe are even further removed (see Moncalvo et al, 2002, 117 clades of euagarics, Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 23 pp.357-400). Basal taxa of the major psilocybian clade remain to be resolved.

There is little doubt in my mind, however, that even were a closer relative to be found, it would prove useless for your purposes, Baby Hitler.

It is not uncommon in mushrooms even for sister species (i.e., two species that are each others' closest relatives) to differ drastically in ecological strategies, substrate preferences, morphology, developmental tendencies, mating systems, physiological traits, etc. Therefore I see little point in using a substitute species as a model for optimising the cultivation of Psilocybe cubensis, if that was your intention.

I have tried not to delve too deeply into the minutiae of this tediously acrimonious thread, but I have read enough to see that a well-founded statement of Micro's was misinterpreted.

The comment "BTW -- there would be 2 copies of the gene, anyway, unless it's only a monokaryote we're talking about." seems to be simply pointing out that whatever genes are involved with psilocybin synthesis, a dikaryon would by definition carry one pair of each.

This resulted in a pointless debate about whether there is only a single gene involved in psilocybin production. I think the context of Micro's comment was clear, and a fellow microbiologist would understand the subtext that "there would be 2 copies of the gene [or series of genes in question]" present in a dikaryon.

In attacking Micro for what merely amounts to his wording in expressing this situation, Baby Hitler makes a further point about differential alkaloid expression between mushroom strains:

"[Micro said that] this gene is "not multi-allelic", which would mean that all cubensis mushrooms have the same allele for production of psilocybin. This [in my, Baby Hitler's understanding] would mean that there can be no variation in potency due to genetics."

Baby Hitler's understanding is flawed because he does not consider that (a) the same allele can undergo different levels of transcription according to genetic variation in expression factors, and (b) his own previous point that "there may be some [unlinked] genes that produce enzymes [or other products] that may inhibit or disrupt [or stimulate!] production of psilocybin at different stages."

I don't think that Micro overlooked point (b) - he just had little reason to mention it at that stage of the discussion.

While I'm at it, I'd also like to tackle this explanation of Zeronio's:
Question: why do mushrooms produce psilocybin and psilocin?
"There is a simple explanation. Psilocybin gene had an advantage in evolution because the mammals helped mushrooms that had it to spread their spores. They formed a symbiotic relationship with mammals.
(/me puts a helmet on in anticipation of anti-evolutionists counter strike ) "

I am a pro-evolutionist, and it is actually on evolutionary grounds that I strongly disagree with this hypothesis. Firstly, molecular divergence estimates date the emergence of psilocybin-producing lineages in the early Cretaceous, before mammals were diverse. Secondly, even if psilocybin production was clearly correlated with mammalian or other animal mycophagy (which it is not), this offers no selective advantage over wind-dispersal of spores, especially because most psilocybian species are not coprophilous. Therefore the statement that psilocybes have enjoyed a symbiotic relationship with mammals over evolutionary timescales is based on false premises. I think it far more useful to speculate that psilocybin has other adaptive roles, perhaps (and remember this is pure speculation, as I know of no corroborating experimental data) as an insect & invertebrate toxin/repellent, or a mycovirus control agent.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2189187 - 12/18/03 11:33 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Good day


Edited by zeronio (12/19/03 12:49 AM)


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: pluteus]
    #2189269 - 12/19/03 12:32 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Very well put.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: pluteus]
    #2189286 - 12/19/03 12:47 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: pluteus]
    #2189333 - 12/19/03 01:18 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

The idea of symbiosis was just a speculation. Cubes & Panaeolus are coprophilous and even non-coprophilous species tend to grow in habitats that were affected by humans. They surely have evolutionary advantage since the humans evolved which is probably just a second in their history.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: pluteus]
    #2189781 - 12/19/03 07:42 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you for your gracious response.

I did not "attack" him because he said psilocybin was regulated by a single gene (a statement he later clarified and confirmed) I attacked him because of his shitty attitude. I don?t have much patience for uppity obstructionists. He didn?t have anything constructive to add, so he just attacked the concept. This attitude does more to bring this community down than almost anything else.

Anyone with the imagination that God gave a billy goat can see the potential that a legal cubensis cultivar could have.

For those with sub-caprine imaginations here?s a list to get you started:

1.) The single most significant factor preventing most (interested) people from cultivating cubensis is the risk of going to prison for a very long time, possibly years of even decades. Most people only grow enough to supply themselves and maybe some freinds. For me, an ounce a year would be more than I would care to grow illegally. Some people are interested in the hobby for more than it?s ability to "get you fuct up". A legal cultivar would allow more people to be more involved in cultivation than they currently are. This would result in more people being knowledgable in the cultivation of Psilocybe cubensis, and also increase the rate at which knowledge is accumulated.

2.) Security Currently, any cubensis grow-op that is sighted either in "real life" or on the internet can be easily assumed to be an illegal drug manufacturing operation. With the addition of a legal cultivar, this would no longer be an assumption that could be made with the certainty that it is today, making the world a little bit safer for everyone?s "aunt?s neighbor?s possum?s left hind oposable thumb".

3.)


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2190097 - 12/19/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I did not "attack" him because he said psilocybin was regulated by a single gene (a statement he later clarified and confirmed) I attacked him because of his shitty attitude. I don't have much patience for uppity obstructionists. He didn't have anything constructive to add, so he just attacked the concept.




Why don't we look back....

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said: I apologize if first year college algebra is over your head.
I'm surprised that you fail to see how this applies to genetics, Perhaps your claims of knowledge are overstated.




.... ummmmm who started it? Who had the shitty attitude? I get pissed off, especially when people insult my intelligence. I have respect for everyone on this board, until someone disrespects me like you did, and yes I did attack you, but only after you made the above comment. You just got pissed off because a lot of people thought it was a bad idea, including myself.

I do apologize for my attitude, though -- it always takes two sides for an argument. I shouldn't have lost my cool like that.

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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #2190124 - 12/19/03 11:13 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I may have been a little harsh as well micro. It's just that I found the lack of vision and imagination demonstrated in this thread a little disturbing.

If I ever find a way of testing for psilocybin other than by ingestion that is within my means I will try glyphosate and see what happens.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2190278 - 12/19/03 12:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

wouldn't it be easier to just move where cultivating is legal?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: John]
    #2190298 - 12/19/03 12:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Not really. Neither option seems especially practical.

I was just hoping that someone would have some anecdotes of having grown non-active shrooms.

If anyone ever does find it, I think it should be called the messiah cultivar, since it would be free from "sin".


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2190793 - 12/19/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

One point, Are Ps.cubensis species specificaly listed in law? If so it would not matter if it was active or not. It really depends on how the law is written,does it proscribe the active substance, specific genera,or both.If it does specify genera  even an inactive Ps. species is illeagle.This is my main reason for suggesting a closely  related genera with substrate requirements which match the fruiting conditions of Ps.species should simply studying the gross ecology of the Stropharioids be what the goal is.If one wishes to study biosynthetic pathways radioisotope assay is preffered.If one wishes to have "pet" shrooms they are never going to be a Ps. species legaly IMHO. As Ps cubensis are among the known and listed carrriers of psilocybin and like hemp even non-consequential amounts of the proscribed substance would be considered prosecution worthy.
WR:rasta:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2190898 - 12/19/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

My understanding of it is that the species Psilocybe cubensis has not been legally declaired an illegal species. Cannabis sativa, and all it's varieties has.

Similar to San Pedro, and Mimosa hostilis except that for some reason they pursue prosecution for manufacture of psilocybin when someone gets caught growing shrooms, but noone has yet been prosecuted for growing San Pedro.

If someone were found to be growing San Pedro for it's illegal substances for ingestion they would have a case, but if someone were growing cubensis for any reason they would be charged (and convicted) with manufacturing a controlled substance even if they somehow managed to prove that that they were not using it as a drug.


For that matter, if someone were caught growing a non-active cubensis they would be charged and prosecuted, but when they were tested and came back negative for any controlled substances, they would have to drop the case.


BTW, this is all just "my understanding" of how it is.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2191145 - 12/19/03 05:17 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You are correct. It is the contents of the mushroom that are specifically outlawed, not the mushroom.

You would still be raided growing the non-active cubensis, if someone ratted you out, but you would not be brought to court, once they tested negative.

EDIT. unless you were caught selling them as actives.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ]
    #2198154 - 12/23/03 04:02 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Hope I understood everything all right but in this thread it says: "Psilocybe violacea and it comes from the hard work and collection efforts of Mr. John Allan. This is a very unique non-active Psilocybe that demands a home in everyone's microscopy collection!"
What do I have to think of that ?


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2199380 - 12/24/03 08:21 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Strange shroom ...


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: ]
    #2201298 - 12/25/03 08:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Would then cultivation of Ps montana, a species I have only seen listed as inactive, be a viable legal Psilocybe to cultivate?
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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2204337 - 12/27/03 04:45 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

The cultivation of any non-active mushroom is legal, unless prohibited for other reasons, like Plant pathogens, etc...

Being legal, and still getting raided is a possibility, because they might suspect wrongdoing. Being raided, and arrested, and being tried and convicted are different.

It is the active properties of Psilocybe that are illegal. If the active properties are not present, then the state has no case. A case might be maid for selling non-actives as actives, but it would be difficult to prosecute.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: micro]
    #14300847 - 04/16/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Bump


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: fromga2wa]
    #14300851 - 04/16/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Bump Bump


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: fromga2wa]
    #14300852 - 04/16/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Bump Bump Bump


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: fromga2wa]
    #14300973 - 04/16/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

*UNST* *UNST* *UNST* *UNST*


:reachforthelasers:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14344364 - 04/24/11 04:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I havent read any of the replies so I dont know if its been answered yet or not. The answer is absolutely its possible. Its as simple as you stated op, isolate a strain that produces no alkaloids. Psilocybe cubensis is not illegal. Psilocybin is. Its dumb but it would technically make non-psilocybin containing cubensis mushrooms legal. All psilocybe-containing mushrooms are not banned by species, but only if they contain psilocybin.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: BrownCow]
    #14375928 - 04/30/11 02:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrownCow said:
I havent read any of the replies so I dont know if its been answered yet or not. The answer is absolutely its possible. Its as simple as you stated op, isolate a strain that produces no alkaloids. Psilocybe cubensis is not illegal. Psilocybin is. Its dumb but it would technically make non-psilocybin containing cubensis mushrooms legal. All psilocybe-containing mushrooms are not banned by species, but only if they contain psilocybin.




good luck.

its not going to be as easy as you are making it.

you have to isolate at random. and test EVERY SINGLE isolation you ever make.

until you find one with "less" and then keep tryin to whittle it down


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: k00laid]
    #14384412 - 05/01/11 07:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is a 7 year old thread.  :hangovershades:

Just to have the final word though - trying to remove Psilocin would be a ridiculous waste of time, and given the US's current methodology of prosecuting, if they found any traces of actives using chromatography they would still throw you in jail. Even legal hemp is still "active" and they've been working on that for years, chromatography has no problems detecting THC in Hemp.

So the obvious answer is to grow something else - Stropharia semiglobata.

It looks like Cubensis, grows on dung in the same conditions as Cubensis, and would probably be cultivated with a similar ease as Cubensis. 
:cookiemonster:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Feelers]
    #14426492 - 05/09/11 07:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Seems to me if you found/made a mutant strain which expresses a disfunctional trypt decarboxylase and/or indole n-methyltransferase then you'd have your legal strain.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: fromga2wa]
    #14428136 - 05/10/11 02:57 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fromga2wa said:
Bump



What a terribly stupid necro of a completely worthless thread.


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OfflineFnappy J
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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #14428200 - 05/10/11 03:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You've got the wrong idea, man. If you have the equipment to test for the alkaloids, you should be able to think of one much more exciting project than trying to reduce psilocybin levels! Moreover, the process of reducing and augmenting the levels of alkaloids is just as illegal until the psilocin/psilocybin is completely absent, and at that point, you'd have a mushroom that doesn't taste very good and doesn't have psychoactive effects (in other words, a mushroom that is of no use to humans).

If you're going to practice illegal mycology, at least be productive about it.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Fnappy J]
    #14428348 - 05/10/11 05:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

And what's the bloody fucking point? I still don't get it. Do you drink a lot of alcohol free single malt whiskey?
If you want to cultivate psilocybin/psilocin free mushrooms grow some Agaricus or wine caps or, or, or, and, and, and.
This is seriously one of the most retarded ideas I've seen on these boards so far and definitely not worth necroing a 7+ year old thread over.

And one more thing, "fromga2wa": you keep bumping this shit at minute frequency one more time and you'll get banned for good this time. Troll.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #14429004 - 05/10/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well at least I laughed my ass off when I read the two above posts. Seriously; those were fucking great.  :lolz0rz:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: Feelers]
    #14431351 - 05/10/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yes this does seem dumb, but its still worth a shot if you are a legislation changing revolutionary. I remember when i was in school we would have ill-informed idiots come talk to us about "drugs" and the most dangerous "drug" was marijuana, but "marijuana is just a plant, the drug in it is called THC kids" and it leads to crack/herion/buttsex. But what this douche didnt realize was there are many cannabinoids in cannabis that all form together to create a unique effect. And ive heard of a CC in spain that grows cannbis with no thc but insanely high levels of CBD and its supposed to be a differnt effect but still powerful. So i am open to the idea that there are other akaloids in mushrooms beside the main 2 that may cause some sort of effect.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #14434789 - 05/11/11 12:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
And what's the bloody fucking point? I still don't get it. Do you drink a lot of alcohol free single malt whiskey?
If you want to cultivate psilocybin/psilocin free mushrooms grow some Agaricus or wine caps or, or, or, and, and, and.
This is seriously one of the most retarded ideas I've seen on these boards so far and definitely not worth necroing a 7+ year old thread over.

And one more thing, "fromga2wa": you keep bumping this shit at minute frequency one more time and you'll get banned for good this time. Troll.





You just need to eat some b00m3rZ and open your mind, bro.


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #14453217 - 05/14/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
And what's the bloody fucking point? I still don't get it. Do you drink a lot of alcohol free single malt whiskey?
If you want to cultivate psilocybin/psilocin free mushrooms grow some Agaricus or wine caps or, or, or, and, and, and.
This is seriously one of the most retarded ideas I've seen on these boards so far and definitely not worth necroing a 7+ year old thread over.

And one more thing, "fromga2wa": you keep bumping this shit at minute frequency one more time and you'll get banned for good this time. Troll.


http://www.shroomery.org/8757/Why-do-different-species-and-strains-of-mushrooms-have-different-highs

cmon man u got a trusted cultivator tag:facepalm:


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Re: A legal cultivar of cubensis possible? [Re: sporesmores420]
    #14453533 - 05/14/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The point was to produce an isolate that produced no illegal substances, but which produced spores that would produce.







DUH.


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