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Offlineergot
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Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics?
    #2896338 - 07/16/04 10:45 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Most avid buddhists proclaim that meditation will expand awareness as well as heighten intuition. These, obviously, are the reasons I use psychedelics. However, I would be interested in attaining similar results through meditation and the disciplined process of eroding mental constructs. Do you believe meditation is just as, if not more, effective as psychedelics for insight and awareness?

And, can some one recommend a book on meditation techniques? I would like something geared towards Zen, traditional Buddhism, or Taoism...

-ergot :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2896359 - 07/16/04 10:53 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It is most commonly related in this way:

Psychedelics place you on the peak of the mountain for a period of time.. then you are forced to go all the way back down to the bottom of the mountain where you started.

Meditation is the road up the same mountain.. it will (with a lot more effort, obviously) bring you to that same mountain peak.. only this time you aren't forced back down after.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2896468 - 07/16/04 11:40 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

no buddhists would say that meditation is a form of entertainment or recreation.
the purpose of the meditation is primarily to cultivate mental habits that are conducive to the Noble 8-fold path.
the purpose of psychedellics is more exploratory, diffusely recreational, or shamanistically expansive.
occasionally meditation is expansive.
i find it makes tripping easier, but it is not a buddhist thing to regularly use entheogens.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2896501 - 07/16/04 11:55 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't consider magic mushrooms or any psychedelics to be on a parrallel to the kind of meditation we're talking about here. I understand why people would see the connection between the two what with the feeling of "enlightenment" on mushrooms, but mushrooms are definetly no kind of alternative to the "real thing" which is the life-long practice of a method. If you look at shamanic cultures who've used drugs for millenia and still practice effective psychedelic methods, you'll see that none of them speak of the pursuit of enlightenment in the sense that Eastern meditators do. The ayahuasca cults of the amazon and the mushroom or peyote cults of mexico use the substances to gain awareness in a reality wherein they can work their magic usually for healing purposes, it's not at all about climbing a mountain.

The cultures with the deepest knowledge of psychedelics don't use them for the pursuit of enlightenment, which leads me to believe that those of us who do are misleading themselves in that they'll never actually "gain" any mileage on that path through mushroom use.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2896504 - 07/16/04 11:56 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think meditation is a great supplement for psychedelics. On psychedelics, you can have all these revelations and enlightening experiences, but this enlightened state of mind won't last unless you practice at it. A good method of practice would be meditation.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2896542 - 07/16/04 12:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


it's not at all about climbing a mountain.





I think you misunderstood me.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2896564 - 07/16/04 12:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't care about you



I understand though


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2896670 - 07/16/04 01:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If you want to develop awareness I urge you to read this book: http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/mipe/mipe_i.htm

You will never regret it.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: dorkus]
    #2896678 - 07/16/04 01:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"I think meditation is a great supplement for psychedelics"

I think psychedelics are a great supplement for meditation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: dorkus]
    #2896707 - 07/16/04 01:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

no enlightened state actually exists!
all is flux, but
there are more enlightening attitudes which can be taken and practices that support having enlightened approaches
so one can address what is happenning better (i.e. 8-fold path).

meditation is the practice of that which increases the light(ness)
psychedellics present an opportunity to test the lightness, but this is not exactly on the 8-fold path (right conduct - yes, right intoxicants -no; but it is arguable that an entheogen is more of a shamanistical test than an intoxicant).


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2896716 - 07/16/04 01:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
I don't care about you





:sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:  :sad:

I'm crushed. .. :sad:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2896729 - 07/16/04 01:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Meditation and psychedelics are to avheive different ends. They have little in common. Meditation clears the mind...drugs don't. To use drugs while meditating is merely being self important as it is self defeating.


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Offlineergot
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2896971 - 07/16/04 02:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Meditation and psychedelics are to avheive different ends. They have little in common. Meditation clears the mind...drugs don't. To use drugs while meditating is merely being self important as it is self defeating.




What about egoloss?


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2896983 - 07/16/04 02:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The ego loss acheived from long years of adherance to Zen is more permanent in it's effect on us. The entheogenic ego loss, while often not occurring at all, is quite temporary. I have seen people bolster the ego with psychedelics. Once again while psychedelics may grant us a different perspective they are not an adjunct to meditation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2897645 - 07/16/04 05:51 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the sense of no-self is not the same thing as egoloss.

ego loss itself is a misnomer or a bad description of what is really going on.

the ego is not lost in either case.

realizations about no-separation can occur from both meditation and entheogen.

meditative "ego-realization" is
1) realization of emptiness of allthings and
2) realization of no-self as per ego being an automaton like process of mind (see abhidhamma for explanation, but one must see it to know)
&
3) realization of no-separation - all one (kinda like seeing the membrane or synaesthesia but not either one of those drug joys)

entheogen ego realization is usually:
1) some dysfunction in defenses or a sense of dissociation.
2) sensory distortion to the point of no refernces capable of triggering ego responses.
3) overlays of input too heavy to permit coherence of ego responses underway.
4) insight.


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InvisibleJenny
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2898017 - 07/16/04 08:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

good analogy.

The one i use to describe it is similar. Psychedelics take you window shopping, meditation takes you right in the store. Through regular meditation practice doors will fly open. What you see and experience no matter how profound when on psychedelics, albiet a good learning tool, is not in real time. It takes hard work to expand yourself indefinately, instead of just for a short period of time by inducing a substance.


--------------------

Mindfulness is the aware, balanced acceptance of the present experience.
It isn't more complicated than that.
It is opening to or recieving the present moment, pleasant or unpleasant, just as it is,
without either clinging to it or rejecting it.


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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2898948 - 07/17/04 03:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Excellant post. Very succinct and to the point.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Jenny]
    #2899204 - 07/17/04 06:33 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

meditation is an enlightening practice, and by nature has to be practiced to be enlightening.
Nothing permanent remains after any meditation per se.
Some people think it is going to make a lasting change, it makes a brief change like going uphill so you can coast down on your bike. then you go uphill again.
No thing in itself will make permanent changes, it is refered to as a path. not a treatment not a graduation ceremony.


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2899233 - 07/17/04 07:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the meaning of buddhist meditation (sorry, theres many variations of meditation i was talkin about traditional buddhist)

it is what everyone said here but comes from ONE thing in particular, the rest just "comes along" when you have attained 'THIS' one thing.

and the one thing is ... to establish a connection with god, through the beginning of all things ... silence.

you renounce the self and the universe and become the supreme self through ultimate stage. when all karmic bonds are healed and cut it is attainable.

and to the person who said your forced to be unenlightened after your peak ... "a fallen branch never returns" it is only the veil you cover your perception with that makes you think, otherwise .

once you have meditated enough and realized much you will notice the "presence of god" at all times.


Edited by OOISI (07/17/04 12:11 PM)


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Offlineobfuscatelesol
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Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2899517 - 07/17/04 12:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Nice posts guys.

In response to ergot, if it's increased awareness and intuition you're after, meditation will certainly help more thanpsychedelics. As far as instruction goes, I recommend "The Heart of Buddhist Meditation" by Nyanaponika Thera (it's pretty old, but amazon sells it- I like it because it uses the sutras, or discourses of Buddha, and then clarifies and expounds them). "Turning the Mind Into an Ally" by Sakyong Mipham is a great introduction, though from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective. I haven't read as much Zen works, though "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" and "Not Always So: Praticing the True Spirit of Zen" by Shunryu Suzuki are great collections of Zen talks, including many on the practice of Zazen or Shikantaza, which is the basic meditation practice of Zen.

One of my favorite meditations is Guru Yoga, which consists of mantra, visualization, and finally uniting your mind with that of your guru's, which in essence is experiencing the true nature of mind and everything (emptiness), or connecting with god as OOISI describes it. Also, mantra and visulazation alone are good, and the most basic practice of "calm abiding" meditation (which is said to be a prerequisite for all other meditations) is great, where one focuses their attention on the breath or any other inner or outer object. This is a prerequisite for other mediatations becuase it calms and focuses the mind. As per Taoist meditations, try the microcosmic orbit (do a search for it, I'm sure there's lots of info online).

While psychedelics may help one come to realizations, they also tend to obscure perception of reality and make it easy for one to trick themself. Meditation (when done properly) only leads to correct perception of truth. Check out the forums at www.e-sangha.com for lots more information, there are many knowledgeable and insightful Buddhists there and there's much information about the practices mentioned here and many more all over the internet. Good luck my friend.


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