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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2902934 - 07/18/04 03:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the sense of no-self is not the same thing as egoloss.

ego loss itself is a misnomer or a bad description of what is really going on.

the ego is not lost in either case.

realizations about no-separation can occur from both meditation and entheogen.

meditative "ego-realization" is
1) realization of emptiness of allthings and
2) realization of no-self as per ego being an automaton like process of mind (see abhidhamma for explanation, but one must see it to know)
&
3) realization of no-separation - all one (kinda like seeing the membrane or synaesthesia but not either one of those drug joys)

entheogen ego realization is usually:
1) some dysfunction in defenses or a sense of dissociation.
2) sensory distortion to the point of no refernces capable of triggering ego responses.
3) overlays of input too heavy to permit coherence of ego responses underway.
4) insight.




Your meditative "ego-realization" has properties that are all achievable by the smoking of 5-MeO-DMT...

-ergot :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2903128 - 07/18/04 05:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You might as well ask if eating is an alternative to sleeping.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2903138 - 07/18/04 05:32 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I might as well... if it was debatable. However, it is not. As people have never said sleeping produces the same results as eating or vice versa. Whereas, similarities have been drawn numerous times between psychedelics and meditation...

-ergot :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2903146 - 07/18/04 05:36 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Whereas, similarities have been drawn numerous times between psychedelics and meditation...

Really? I have never seen trails and geometric colors nor become confused or frightened or become unaware of who or where I was while meditating.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: ergot]
    #2903317 - 07/18/04 06:22 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the sense of no-self is not the same thing as egoloss.

ego loss itself is a misnomer or a bad description of what is really going on.

the ego is not lost in either case.

realizations about no-separation can occur from both meditation and entheogen.

meditative "ego-realization" is
1) realization of emptiness of allthings and
2) realization of no-self as per ego being an automaton like process of mind (see abhidhamma for explanation, but one must see it to know)
&
3) realization of no-separation - all one (kinda like seeing the membrane or synaesthesia but not either one of those drug joys)

entheogen ego realization is usually:
1) some dysfunction in defenses or a sense of dissociation.
2) sensory distortion to the point of no refernces capable of triggering ego responses.
3) overlays of input too heavy to permit coherence of ego responses underway.
4) insight.




Your meditative "ego-realization" has properties that are all achievable by the smoking of 5-MeO-DMT...

-ergot :mushroom2:



i don't doubt that a good drug witll give a good effect, but ego realization is not the main effect of meditation.
meditation is for cultivation of awareness and attitude.
the drug won't come close to that.
a venn diagram would have some overlapp but not much.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2903329 - 07/18/04 06:24 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Whereas, similarities have been drawn numerous times between psychedelics and meditation...

Really? I have never seen trails and geometric colors nor become confused or frightened or become unaware of who or where I was while meditating.



an intense session of vipassana can make you quite scared.
there are things tucked away in there that will astonish you.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2903344 - 07/18/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Me neither. Maybe this is because meditation acheives a different end.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Is meditation an alternative to psychedelics? [Re: Swami]
    #2905829 - 07/19/04 03:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

and what about seeing reality from different positions ?
There a correlations and differences. With psychedelics, you rarely get the 'clue' of meditation. With meditation you will not be 'thrown' in the world of psychedelics.
Meditation is much more control and conscious 'adjustment'.
A meditated mind can help much with psychedelics, while a psychedelized mind has less clues, more a 'need' for meditation.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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