fiddle_head said:

Hey Benson good to see you bud

Stabilization works because with each filial generation you produce you are reducing heterozygosity. When you print you get a random mix of all the genes, and since both parents of your offspring came from the same fruit, it’s just selfing/inbreeding each time you grow out from spore. The dominant allele at the respective gene loci will produce the phenotype in a heterozygous state. (Yy) so that is what we see in gen 1.

The traits we are trying to stabilize could be the product of several genes inherited  as a unit (polygenic) and are often recessive. So when we perform a cross we are looking for candidates in the f1 that look like regular mushrooms. This is because when you cross you are initially expanding the gene pool, adding heterozygosity (same operating principle as back-crossing) These will have the mixed genotype (Yy/yY) but the dominant allele is expressed while our recessive trait is buried. (these are just examples)

This changes in the second filial when genetic recombination can now produce 4 different genotypes at the respective locus or loci instead of just 2. Since you are inbreeding each time you grown from spore you now have the possibility for those recessive traits to appear (Yy x yY = YY, Yy, yY, yy - Once again just a convenient oversimplified example…)

This is why we select early and archive prints from previous gens so we can take a step back on the “chessboard” if our trait appears to have been bred out inadvertently, which is often the case. Pursuing a culture line that is not presenting the traits you want after a few gens is a waste of time and effort. It is a checkmate. Once the traits are bred out they are gone forever. This is why people back cross.

For this reason it is moot to breed out more than 7-8 filial generations. The decrease in heterozygosity is exponentially decreased with each generation. So for this reason it levels out. By the 7th filial the % net loss in heterozygosity is literally the definition of diminishing returns.

TLDR as far as pushing a culture 100+ gens, yes it would be supremely futile. it is costly to hope for a bad culture to improve by moving forwards. The returns on anything past gen 7-8 are negligible.

If I have a winning clone culture I will preserve it on agar and save a “master” wedge in distilled water, or transfer the culture to lc and preserve that way. This way you always have a starting point t to go back to if you need to start over or access the genetic material. Like saving your game. Very similar to saving an early generation print for backcrossing if it should become necessary. You could also just use a slant or plate as your master and store in the fridge.

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SWBZA said:

QQ: Do we still "fruiting conditions"?  "Old" way: spawn to bulk, keep in the dark until surface covered with myc, bring into the light, flip the lid for fresh air exchange.  Seems the "new" way is: spawn to bulk in a shoebox, put the box in a "normal room" with daylight and night, and leave that box alone until there are shrooms all over.  What is the current best method?  I've got several tubs that I left alone (hard, I'm a control freak), the surface conditions look good, on the sides of the tubs it looks like healthy myc, but sweet FA is happening in terms of pins and shrooms - all three tubs older than a month.

Surface conditions: droplets on the myc:



Side looks healthy:



Another tub with what I consider decent surface conditions:



Any thoughts?  TIA

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So, here is one suggestion: unless it turns green, just leave it the <bleep> alone!  Third flush:

DERRAYLD said:

2 years old and your canner looks like that?
Wtf have you left in there to?

I have a 20yr old pc that still as though I bought it yesterday.

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Fiet said:

Guy's, i don't know how that's happening my Canner Cooker has some holes in it maybe from a chemical reaction??? I don't know what to do can i still using this Canner ore it's to Dangerous? Maybe the holes can fix with some stuff from a Market? I have no idea why the holes are happened this Canner is not old 2 years

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fiddle_head said:

ambigu said:

ESL = English as a Second Language? The fact that I had to look that up probably already says enough, but yes, definitely true the fact that I just started this year with mushroom cultivation could be a reason as well for mixing up words/not being clear.

I do mean isolation, though. I realise stabilisation as a result of inbreeding also makes it harder to improve traits by selecting, but for this question let’s assume we’re starting from a wild strain.

My assumption is that when you have isolated a strain on agar (= a monoculture or a single strain?), and you let that single strain colonise a tub, the fruits may look different because of non-genetic reasons, but the different traits of the fruit that actually sporulates is not expressed in its spores, so it wouldn’t matter which fruit you would pick to make a spore print.

Does that make it more clear?

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One does not simply isolate a “strain” on agar. A strain is a dikaryon, or single hypahe (mycelium strand). With a terminal tip formed from the plasmogamy of two haplonts (monokaryons)
These are different from varieties, or cultivars as you stated.

The only way to isolate a single strain on agar is with a microscope or serial dilution or other advanced techniques which you may or may not be familiar with. The genotype is mixed within the basidiocarp (fruit) population in the tub because of two reasons.

1. Many strains exist within that tiny transfer. Even if you made many transfers you will still not ever end up with a single strain. Many many thousands of spores will fit on the tip of a needle. Imagine planting a bunch of seeds together and having to separate the root ball except x1000000. We do the best we can and select for the best growth as the culture develops on agar.

2. Di-Mon mating. A monokaryon ("seed") can accept a nucleus from a different dikaryon. This can result in a different pairing and different genotypes.

Dikaryons (strands) have two nuclei per cell because the “seeds” (monokaryons) have paired and conjoined so they can mate later in the mushroom gills. This is called karyogamy. It is when the two nuclei from earlier fuse to form a single diploid nucleus, which then splits into four haploid nuclei, each with its own genotype. This is what is in the spores.

In this way you can have many genotypes of the same variety in the same tub. We select based on appearance because we have little else to go on.

Inbreeding results in lower heterozygosity which means your chances past a certain point for a novel genotype is moot.

I am not the best at explaining things sometimes but I hope this has helped. I probably raised more questions than I answered.

I am sorry for the typos, sent from my phone.

edit: corrected typos and accounted for any gaps in understanding/nomenclature.

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Wow, thanks a lot for your comprehensive explanation and taking the time to write it down!

It is much more clear to me now, and the terminology allows me to search for information and get more familiar on the topic.

sanzer said:

Trying a pointless project but have no reason not to try even if failure is guaranteed... Trying to "rewild" even if it involves human intervention of harvesting, storage, and re "planting" each year. Trying to follow my cattle herd and establish cubes in zone 6 in my pasture.

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sanzer said:

What in manure do wild mushrooms (cubes) grow on ?

Seems to be the thinking is manure provides no benefit and limited nutes, and basically is similar to coir in just retaining moisture... Is it grass seed in the manure that is the spawn?

Is hay or grass the same as spawn in the wild or it is also coir just a moisture substrate?

Thanks

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Feed your cows spores

Don’t over complicate it, it will either work or it won’t

And like Mr. Piggy said, probably the latter, but if you are going to try anything, try feeding your cows spores.

Jrey16 said:

I shook these jars 5 days ago. What's up with the jar on the left? It's not doing as well as the one on the right. No mycelium on the top either. Maybe I didn't shake it that well?

Should I shake the jar on the left again?

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Tri-Polar said:

Quote:

Feed your cows spores

Don’t over complicate it, it will either work or it won’t

And like Mr. Piggy said, probably the latter, but if you are going to try anything, try feeding your cows spores.

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Yeah I need a lot of spores for this and I'm a bit concerned about any effect it may have on the cows but down the road I might try it.

GenesisCorrupted said:

I’m almost positive. I know exactly what type of sprayer you’re talking about. You can unscrew the tip and then it just comes out in a stream.

That’s gonna happen already. It’s natural selection out there. The mushroom that does the best is the one that needs to be cloned. You don’t need to add more variability.

I also think you should “cheat”
You should go to the marketplace and find somebody who’s been already growing Cubensis outside in a cow pasture in a similar climate to yours. They would be able to send you an agar wedge that is already clean and bred for its environment.

If you made a liquid culture based off of that and you were able to keep it clean. Then you would be spraying some thing that is already what you’re looking for.

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Yes I forgot that the tip comes off. Cool, thanks, and this answered my question about if I needed added grain or if the manure had enough nutrition, and the sprayer is a great idea for inoculation. (If I ever did need to go back to spores, I could also use the sprayer)

Mr Piggy said:

Yeah, that's not going to happen.  Cubes are a tropical/sub-tropical mushroom.  You will have a lot more luck growing them in bins or patches.

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I know, but I guess my interests and goals have changed over the years. If I ever just want an end product I have some many great and easy effective teks from shroomery I can follow and get the end product. And there is a ton of great science that's frankly just too advanced for me, I've tried to learn and I think a bit maybe gets in my mind but probably gets corrupted.

I guess I'm more interested in art than science. No way will it ever be as efficient as the science methods but there is something neat about it. Cheese can be made in stainless steel tanks, sterile environments etc, or it can be made in 500 year old wooden barrels. Wine is the same, it can be made in controlled ways or the old feet and clay vat and open air and old barrels...

Maybe it can't be done with cubes, or it's foraging wild, but I'm looking for something a bit in-between.

An RR reply I saw on an old tiny thread kinda inspired me. He said dried myc was used by the ancient Chinese in their mushroom cultivation.

I'm ok going down a dead end road. And if it does work or even if it fails maybe the journey will interest some people here. Idk.


Thanks for the help everyone sincerely I think I have a better starting place now to chase this. Cheers

ThurmanMurman said:

So LC is typically used only once, as in one shouldn't put the lid back on and store for later, after knocking up grains with it? I can see the logic there, but what do you guys do with any leftovers? Is it worth dumping in a flower pot or whatever or just toss it entirely? It seems kinda sad to just dispose of it...idk. I guess one could prep enough grain to not have leftovers, but I dont like the idea of doing a ton of grain with it either, just in case it wasn't clean afterall.

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