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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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The problem with Truth.
    #26146053 -

Truth and the search for truth seems like a lost cause.  Things are as they are, which is changing at such scope and rate that our perspective is insignificant.

It works for our primitive minds, in a space time.  It doesn't work for Nirvana and enlightenment.  Our destiny is simpler, our minds are so simple that they appear complicated.

Living in a time that truth is so heated and variable that it's an injustice.  So many people have claimed to known a supreme truth, or they have a true idea in their mind.  Possible they convince others as well.

Appears that truth has some issues.  People are so reactive to forms of thought and 'truth'.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26146275 -

"Truth and the search for truth seems like a lost cause. "
.....Due to the word 'seems', this just a feeling or opinion.

"Things are as they are, which is changing at such scope and rate that our perspective is insignificant"
......This is confused because "as they are" refers to a static state,
while "changing at such scope" would appear to mean the usual:
'changing at such a pace' which refers to time not space, which makes the word 'rate' redundant.
if on  the other hand 'scope' is really meant, then we get:
"Things are [as they are, which is] changing at such a space"
which seems confused  or very ambiguous.
As regards: "our perspective", no one from reading this can tell what you presume "our' perspective to be, or why you think there is only one that folks might agree upon.
Also if everything is changing, then perspectives must also be changing.

....The rest of the post is equally vague, and jumps around.

....What does come thru, is a common feeling that some have, that there are limits to human knowledge, and the impossibility of ever knowing reality as it actually is, which goes at least as far back as, in the 'Western World' as Kant and possibly Plato. And in 'The East" to Chuang Tzu. Currently we have the work of Donald Hoffman, both on youtube and in the book:  "The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes" by Donald Hoffman

....As regards mystical truth, there is no chance of saying anything that all will agree upon, no matter how good the arguments seem to one self, or how strong one's belief.

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26146726 -

Words from a forensics man,

Quote:
Ultimately there is a universal truth. The problem is that all of us are human beings, and so for us to get to that universal truth is not necessarily something we’re inherently capable of.



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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: sudly]
    #26147697 -

sudly said:
Words from a forensics man,

Quote:
Ultimately there is a universal truth. The problem is that all of us are human beings, and so for us to get to that universal truth is not necessarily something we’re inherently capable of.



...if we can't know truth the only logical conclusion is that we don't know if we can know truth or not. Its a paradox. So we don't even know, if we don't know.

. . . . . which was Chuang-Tze's point thousands of years ago. (late 4th century BC).
from wiki

"The Butterfly Dream"
...Once, Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering about, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know that he was Zhuang Zhou.

     Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou. But he didn't know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Zhuang Zhou. ….

…whole dramas have been written on its theme.[20]In it Zhuangzi "[plays] with the theme of transformation",[20] illustrating that "the distinction between waking and dreaming is another false dichotomy. If [one] distinguishes them, how can [one] tell if [one] is now dreaming or awake?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi_(book)#%22The_Butterfly_Dream%22

-- - - - - - - - -

....The paradox is resolved when it is realized, it is caused by thought.
When in a state of being, or wonder, or love, or appreciation, of course, so called ultimate truth" is not a problem. It is just a straw-man for intellectuals who are more dead than alive, to get tangled up in, so they can stay half dead and feel safe from the excitement of life.

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: laughingdog]
    #26147737 -

laughingdog said:
When in a state of being, or wonder, or love, or appreciation, of course, so called ultimate truth" is not a problem. It is just a straw-man for intellectuals who are more dead than alive, to get tangled up in, so they can stay half dead and feel safe from the excitement of life.


excellent point

life originates from a source apart from matter, the voice in your mind, the consciousness that thinks, is not material, and that is all we really are

the world around us is animated dirt, we see life there because it appears intelligent, rocks may be alive in a sense that only they understand but we call them dead matter, but when dirt takes the form of a dog or a human we call it alive, but its still just dead matter being animated by conscious energy

in reality material existence is a near death experience, we are never farther from the life source than when we embrace the physical, people who have "near death experiences" almost universally report that it was a beautiful feeling full of light and life, that is because they were momentarily disassociated from the dead flesh

these are truths that can be learned from the psychoactive plants by anyone willing to listen, universal truth is always trying to communicate, you just need to pay attention


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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #26148085 -

in forensics, the kind of truth is specifically related to determination of guilt, in which case, evidence is gathered, analyzed, presented, and evaluated using logic to help determine if a specific thing happened in a specific way.

while trying to be the whole truth, it can at best work with evidence and determine enough truth to tell a credible story that firmly establishes a essential facts which cannot be refuted. i.e. no alternative facts - no alternative truths, unqualified exposure of a crime.

finally, with forensics, all the evidence has to be lawfully collected or the matter can be dismissed and no justice will be done.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26148608 -

example:

http://solar-center.stanford.edu/news/sunwater.html

how is it true that Heraclitus could be right?

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26148650 -

redgreenvines said:
in forensics, the kind of truth is specifically related to determination of guilt, in which case, evidence is gathered, analyzed, presented, and evaluated using logic to help determine if a specific thing happened in a specific way.

while trying to be the whole truth, it can at best work with evidence and determine enough truth to tell a credible story that firmly establishes a essential facts which cannot be refuted. i.e. no alternative facts - no alternative truths, unqualified exposure of a crime.

finally, with forensics, all the evidence has to be lawfully collected or the matter can be dismissed and no justice will be done.


Yes, within a game, or system, where everything is defined and the rules established, it is possible to have "truth" -- as in Euclid's geometry
Or when solving a crime.
Or fixing a lawn mower.
Or winning a game of chess.
etc.

Perhaps a mathematician might call these "sets"

But when we get to the "set of all sets",
perhaps we reach a paradox because, as we can never get outside of it,
it would seem to have no boundary.

This problem seems to me, to arise with all ideas or concepts,
that claim to be absolute or ultimate.

This seems to be why, mystics say one cannot speak of the ultimate accurately,
whether it is called Nirvana, Enlightenment, Truth, or The Tao, etc. And say that rather than conceptualization; experiencing is necessary, at which point words become unnecessary.

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26148691 -

at which point we post just to connect a bit more


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26148708 -

If there were no such real thing as truth, nothing we say in this thread can have any meaning. Whether you want to assert the truth, or deny it, if it didn't exist you couldn't meaningfully do either. So we're either simpering and muttering incoherently, or there are knowable truths toward which we are pointing. Imo, language is not superfluous.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26148733 -

the problem with truth may be just accepting it, especially when it contradicts what one thinks, DQ is right about understanding each other, if there were no fundamental truth there could be no language, and it goes deeper and deeper, the birkeland currents that power the universe are twisted in the same way as the DNA strand, this cannot be random chance, the rotating swirl form is everywhere we look, there is clearly a design there, certainly there is no white bearded god but still there is evidence of an intelligently designed machine, that reality has a structure means that there is a truth behind it, even if we as humans can never fully understand it


--------------------
evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil

freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26148826 -

Not inherently being able to get to the truth doesn’t necessitate a paradox, it implies that the truth becomes discovered.

Zip Zhou wop boopity bop!


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: sudly]
    #26149034 -

Obsession with The Truth causes blindness to many truths that are consistently part of the whole picture. (i.e not alternative, but confirmative aspects of reality).

All that can be experienced is part of The Truth and all that can be thought of is a portion of that, while what can be written and spoken is even a smaller handle on that.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26149094 -

Some things are subjective, so perhaps "truth" is not the best descriptor even if it may feel like it. Even for an individual a subjective truth may be subject to change. It seems fair regarding the subjective to say it seems true, or that a thing is true in the moment... which may or may not lend itself to further exploration, either in the moment or when things change.

The problem is that an important function of the brain is to identify and solve problems. Nothing is out of bounds. Even identifying what seems like a sacred truth, the brain will be prone to test it. Perhaps the question is whether having problems is a problem? To compound what is already a difficult situation by wishing things were simpler does not necessarly make it so. At the same time, we also have the ability to let things be. The brain's problem solving function is able to give up certain problems in order to better focus it's resources on others. This problem solving function needs success to justify it's existence and is able to adjust to make that happen, but the amount of time a person can justify wrestling with a problem varies from one individual to another.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: Rahz]
    #26156233 -

I’ve been debating if I even believe in the truth.
But, let bygones be bygones.


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The goal of spiritual life is not altered states, but altered traits


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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: Rahz]
    #26156730 -

when people have wrong opinions that they believe are true, then that is part of the truth we have to deal with.
lies thus become part of the truth, like rivers on a map, or stars in a sky.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26158314 -

"Absolute truth, or Truth qua Truth, is a tautology (and this is true of all abstract concepts when they are said to be a function of themselves), which makes it a contradiction, which means that there is no such thing as absolute truth, which means that all truth then is subject to a reference; and this fact makes truth subjective.

Which means that truth then, and obviously, cannot be objective. 

On the other hand, the thing which IS objective is truth’s reference."


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26158409 -

references externalize good judgement.
I would give you mine.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26158443 -

Hard truth, absolute truth, truth truth, truth, fact.

Despite strange interpretations wouldn’t it only be a tautology if you actually take absolute truth as meaning fact fact.

What’s it mean when truth is subject to a reference?

Like when truth is subject to I dunno a fact or citation or something :lol:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The problem with Truth. [Re: sudly]
    #26158490 -

sudly said:
What’s it mean when truth is subject to a reference?




That's like saying true knowledge is subject to experience, the experience of living with your decisions. My goose is cooked, I know.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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