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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309913 -

mushmaster said:
it can't. a lack of external restraint on behavior cannot at the same time be an external restraint on behavior.


That sounds logical, until you put personal pronouns in there:

A lack of external restraint on my behavior CAN at the same time be an external restraint on your behavior.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309919 -

and that's what distinguishes an ability from a right.

if there was no such thing as government, would you lose any rights you currently have?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309946 -

Quote:
if there was no such thing as government, would you lose any rights you currently have?


Well, let's see--since a right is that which is due to me, I would think that the concept of rights would be irrelevant. But I still don't know what is due to me.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309966 -

if the government disappeared tomorrow, and the concept of force was suddenly beyond the realm of human thought, you would still have freedom of expression. you could smoke a joint, go for a walk, eat a carrot, or throw a frisbee. these things are rights. you could not kill or rape someone. these are not rights. rights cannot come into existence by way of force; they are only destroyed by it.

the government cannot give you a right to do anything you previously had no right to do.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309968 -

Quote:
if there was no such thing as government, would you lose any rights you currently have?



why dont you go to south america with no money or US passport and find out :lol:

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309970 -

why dont you go to south america with no money or US passport and find out

i don't catch your meaning. they have government in south america, do they not?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309976 -

yes they do. and those governments dont give you as many rights as you would enjoy here.

they will lock you up in cruel conditions with no trial, and you will have no other choice but to take it up the ass or commit suicide via cop.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309985 -

Quote:
if the government disappeared tomorrow, and the concept of force was suddenly beyond the realm of human thought, you would still have freedom of expression. you could smoke a joint, go for a walk, eat a carrot, or throw a frisbee. these things are rights. you could not kill or rape someone. these are not rights.


Well ya, if you eliminated the concept of force, then I couldn't rape and kill someone, but government and force are not the same thing. If just the government disappeared, I could kill or rapes someone just as easily as someone else could do the same to me.

Quote:
rights cannot come into existence by way of force; they are only destroyed by it.



I'm not talking about them coming into existence. But I still don't see how my rights don't extend to the ability to infringe upon others' rights. There are a lot of things I could do if the government disappeared, and initiating force against others is one of them. Government is essentially a monopoly of force. It keeps people in line by being the only entity allowed to use force. Otherwise we could all just all use force against each other.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309993 -

yes they do. and those governments dont give you as many rights as you would enjoy here.

you have the same rights as you do here, but they are not protected as they are here. the question was about if there was no government. drop me off on a desert island with no cash or passport and i will not lose a single right. in your example, the government has stripped me of my rights by initiating force, and this is exactly the point. rights are not granted by any government, only stripped away.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309997 -

if there are any other human beings on that desert island you will probably lose your rights very quickly.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310012 -

...but government and force are not the same thing. If just the government disappeared, I could kill or rapes someone just as easily as someone else could do the same to me.

government and force are the same thing. if there was no government, you could not rape or kill anyone. to do so would be to impose government on them. it would be a one-man, one-subject dictatorship.

I'm not talking about them coming into existence.

that's really what this is all about.

But I still don't see how my rights don't extend to the ability to infringe upon others' rights.

that's because you're still confusing rights with abilities.

There are a lot of things I could do if the government disappeared, and initiating force against others is one of them.

no, because you would then be a government.

Government is essentially a monopoly of force. It keeps people in line by being the only entity allowed to use force. Otherwise we could all just all use force against each other.

and in any sphere of existence, one of us would be the most capable of projecting force. this one would be the government. that's how governments first formed.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2310022 -


if there are any other human beings on that desert island you will probably lose your rights very quickly.

and if there weren't?

and if there were but they did not use force?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310023 -

Quote:
government and force are the same thing. if there was no government, you could not rape or kill anyone. to do so would be to impose government on them. it would be a one-man, one-subject dictatorship.


You have an extremely loose definition of government, and I'm afraid I can't accept such a definition. However, I will concede that if such a definition were to be accepted, then your argument would make perfect sense.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310042 -

government is the individual or group of individuals in any one place with the greatest ability to project force. there is no government in the world that does not meet this criterion... those that don't are overthrown... or simply ignored by the real government. i don't see what's loose about this definition at all. it's precisely what a government is.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310053 -

Government and force are related, but are not the same thing. And no, it is not the individual or group of individuals with the greatest ability to project force. We are all more or less equal in our ability to initiate force. It is the ruling body which the people agree to give a monopoly of force to, thus giving up their right to use force. If I mug someone, no one is agreeing to allow me a monopoly on force. I am merely taking my own initiative in using force against another person, and nobody would dare say that the victim does not have the right to fight back. Nor would anyone say that I have more right to mug someone than they do to mug me. It is not so with the government.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310055 -

If I were alone on a desert island, would I be able to force others to pay for my food or health care, or to pay me 'a living wage'? I bring these up because they are often talked of as 'rights' by those of a 'left leaning' persuasion.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: Evolving]
    #2310072 -

Of course not, because there would be no others around. But I don't see why the " alone on a desert island" argument has to keep coming up in discussion of rights. We are social creatures, and live by rules as such. If I were to be stranded on an island with other people, I would consider it right and proper if everyone was expected to share food with everyone else, even if everyone wasn't equally productive.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310073 -

We are all more or less equal in our ability to initiate force.

not true. i do not have a greater ability to initiate force than the current US government. i can declare my yard to be my own sovereign territory, but it isn't because i do not have the greatest ability to project force in this space... the current US government does. if i did have a greater ability to project force, i would be the government. if they still ruled, it would be only with my consent. governments are, and have always been, at the helms of the most powerful armies in their respective territories. this is true wherever you go, in any time or place.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310079 -

But I don't see why the " alone on a desert island" argument has to keep coming up in discussion of rights.

because it's a good way to seperate what is granted to you by other individuals from what is innate to your own self.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310080 -

Quote:
not true. i do not have a greater ability to initiate force than the current US government.


This is only because the vast majority of people have decided to allow them that ability. A government cannot exist for long without the support of the people.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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