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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 120
Defending the patriot act
    #1336661 - 02/26/03 05:40 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

John Podesta

Many of the electronic surveillance provisions in the Patriot Act faced serious opposition prior to September 11 from a coalition of privacy advocates, computer users, and elements of high-tech industry. The events of September 11 convinced many in that coalition and overwhelming majorities in Congress that law enforcement and national security officials need new legal tools to fight terrorism.

But we should not forget what gave rise to the original opposition?many aspects of the bill increase the opportunity for law enforcement and the intelligence community to return to an era where they monitored and sometimes harassed individuals who were merely exercising their First Amendment rights. Nothing that occurred on September 11 mandates that we return to such an era. If anything, the events of September 11 should redouble our resolve to protect the rights we as Americans cherish.

Therefore, as the new powers granted under the Patriot Act begin to be exercised, we should not only feel more confident that our country has the tools to be safe but we should be ever vigilant that these new tools are not abused.

John Podesta is a visiting professor of law at the Georgetown University Law Center. He served as President Clinton?s chief of staff from 1998-2001.

Fadedpinkwings

I wanted to post this as a beginning to my defense of the patriot act. The point here is that we are not helpless because of the passage of this act. We are still obligated to watch our government and ensure that it does the right thing with the powers that it has!

There are many safeguards put in place within the USDPA to ensure that our constitutional rights are not violated. I will expound on them later once I have organised my thoughts on the matter.

Anyone who has not read the patriot act should do so. do not entrust your mind to paranoid interpretations of the act.Read it and form your own conclusions. I will post more directly.





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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


Edited by fadedpinkwings (02/26/03 05:49 AM)


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336685 - 02/26/03 05:55 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

basically the PA opens the doors on wiretaps and basically is supreme invasion of privacy, can declare anyone an enemy combatant and not have to provide reason or even let anyone know what is going on. i don't see what theres not to be paranoid about. to make sure it doesn't get abused you'd have to monitor every agent or police officer using their PA privlages and thats just not possible. before a judge would have to issue permission based on evidence to collect survalence on someone which was the means of keeping agents in check. but not any more. joe schmoe dea or fbi or atf or country cop can go invade your rights now. THERE IS NO WAY OF SAFEGUARDING EVERY CORRUPT COP/AGENT/POLITITION OUT THERE FROM ABUSING NEW POWERS. when/if this whole terrorism sharade ends, it will be common practice to be using these powers for whatever reasons they adopted them for. lets say some local cops figure out that there might not be any terrorists in their town but with roaming wiretaps they sure can catch a lot of drug deals. so they abuse the power in the name of fighting drugs or fighting UV radiation or in the name of god or whatever. you cannot TRUST government or people in positions of power to not eventually corrupt themselves.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Eightball]
    #1336717 - 02/26/03 06:08 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

before a judge would have to issue permission based on evidence to collect survalence on someone which was the means of keeping agents in check. but not any more.




This statement shows your ignorance. If you do not want to read the act for your self, relax, I will post some truth about these issues shortly.


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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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Invisiblesever
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336755 - 02/26/03 06:19 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 06:21 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336768 - 02/26/03 06:23 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Some people wonder how a regime like Nazi Germany could have come into being, how the German citizens could have supported the growth of such a monstrosity. Thank you for providing us with an insight into understanding such things...


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336774 - 02/26/03 06:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Faded, although you are entitled to your opinion, I honestly don't understand how ANYONE could support the Patriot act. It's only purpose is to give the government even more power against it's own people. This does nothing but promote even more fear and paranoia than is already in place in the U.S. I hope you are never declared as an "enemy combatant" for smoking a joint...because you won't be able to even protest your arrest...you will have NO rights whatsoever, that includes rights to councel.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (02/26/03 06:25 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Evolving]
    #1336783 - 02/26/03 06:27 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

well put..


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: sever]
    #1336799 - 02/26/03 06:31 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I am compiling a list of safeguard and time limit clauses from the USAPA right now. Although I understand your paranoia , it is not justified when you really read the information.

The situations in which most of these powers can be used are extremely limited! After reading the documents for myself I realize most all of the apprehensions are based on a fear of the government in general. It is our government.

Fear of the government takes it out of our hands!


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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: sever]
    #1336801 - 02/26/03 06:32 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

severenet writes:

Give an egotistical fear mongerer politition the power to be king, and he will be king.

Precisely. The problem with the Patriot Act is that it depends on the self restraint of those in power. Even if those in power today are scrupulously honest and fair (and all evidence I have seen leads me to conclude this is not the case), and use the powers granted them by the act in the most minimalist possible manner, there is no guarantee that the person who follows them will be.

This is precisely how the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights were eroded to the point where they are now mere words on aging pieces of paper. It didn't happen all at once, it was a steady nibbling away at the corners here and there over a period of decades and even centuries; nibbles that may even have been taken by people who were sincerely convinced they were doing the right thing.

Some things (despite what the Pragmatists try to tell you) can't be compromised. Some things can't be left to the supposed fairness and reasonableness of those in power.

pinky



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Invisiblesever
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336833 - 02/26/03 06:42 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 06:18 PM)


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336844 - 02/26/03 06:45 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I do not want to close all of your minds anymore than fear and paranoia already has by saying the wrong thing now.So I will be careful.

But the truth is noone here seems to understand what the PA actually says. It is as if an irrational and crippling fear has skewed your thinking. Bear with me and I will try and make it very clear for all of you.

BTW evolving, there is absolutely no relationship to this and Nazi Germany. Quit feeding the paranoia!


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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Offlinepimpadelic
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336874 - 02/26/03 07:03 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The truth is you don't seem to Understand the Patriot Act.


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Invisiblesever
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336881 - 02/26/03 07:05 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 06:15 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336894 - 02/26/03 07:15 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BTW evolving, there is absolutely no relationship to this and Nazi Germany. Quit feeding the paranoia!



It is not paranoia to learn from history. Recent U.S. history is full of examples of incrementalism where a particular piece of legislation was passed with a specific intent cited by the legislators. However, the legislation is usually left very vague and open ended. A couple of years later, government agents are enforcing the law in manners in which it was never stated to be used or to a greater extent than was ever (explicitly) intended. An old example - the income tax, a newer example - asset forfeiture laws.

Look at the history of the WOD drugs!!! Look at WACO and Ruby Ridge! Look at the long list of examples of police abuse and murder under color of authority. Are you blind to the abuse of power that has taken place?

People who blindly believe the good intentions of their governments are the reason governments like Nazi Germany come into being. Whenever you grant government the power for the purpose of 'doing good,' you grant and equal amount of power to the government to do evil. Good intentions mean nothing, it's results that count. History tells us to expect governments to abuse any power that is granted to them

Do me a favor and read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Compare these documents with the Patriot Act and The Patriot Act II.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (02/26/03 07:27 AM)


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OfflineBowlKiller
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336909 - 02/26/03 07:23 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

faded are you serious?

I have read the patriot act. I have read the patriot act 2. I have read news reports where people are being raided by S.W.A.T. teams simply for cooking BBQ because people are reporting them, saying that they are biological labs. (I suppose they think this because the see smoke, I really dont know). People are being arrested for speaking out vs. America and policies. People are being detained in this country (USA) simply for having videos that show how a police state is comming. I have witnessed situations where cops violate the law by taking people detaining them for hours, trying to make up false charges, taking away property (stealing). So besides all the terrible things written in the patriot acts, what about the training and brainwashing of the police?

Seriously you dont see anything wrong with a neighbor calling the cops because you are cooking on a BBQ pit and they think you have a biological lab, and the swat team shows up invades your home, while you are at gunpoint? And this is not theory, thats the thing, this is really happening. People are being stopped in thier cars for no reason, searched, detained, harrased.

I really simply can not understand where you are coming from faded. I can't imagine that you are being serious.

And please do not patronize me by saying I am spreading delusion or panic.



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Anonymous

Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337036 - 02/26/03 08:23 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

faded... the patriot act is very bad... now, other than accusing others on this board of ignorance and paranoia, and saying that you'll get back to us with facts, you haven't really said much; nothing you've said has very much weight or substance.

it seems as though you trust the government not only to not abuse these new powers, but to not even use them to their full extent. i assure you faded, they will do anything and everything that the patriot act allows them to do, and when no one's watching, even more. and we're all waiting on the facts you claim to have...

We are still obligated to watch our government and ensure that it does the right thing with the powers that it has!

i ask you faded, do you think that the government does the right thing with the powers it has now? (do you support the war on drugs? was waco, ruby ridge, and the MOVE fiasco "doing the right thing"?). "all obligated to watch"? under laws like the patriot act, watching is all we're going to be able to do.

you seem to trust our government. i ask you... why?

i do hope that you refrain from commiting any illegal acts. if you don't, maybe some day you'll find that you've been given "enemy combattant" status... then maybe you'll be able to find out exactly what "extradited for processing" means.

do not be so naive. people who thought like you are the ones who let hitler rise to power. they trusted their government.


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: ]
    #1337079 - 02/26/03 08:55 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Nice speech mush ::clapping::


You Obviously have not read the USAPA, Or you would know that these powers everyone is so afraid of are very specific in thier scope.

While you echo paranoia rather nicely (you make a good soundboard) once again you provide no facts. Do not think because you have huddled with the fear crowd that you are exempt from providing facts. I will deal with you more directly later.


What I am compiling will take some time. Be patient or go to the OTD and kill some time.



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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337133 - 02/26/03 09:16 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmm, i challenge anyone to share pinkwings insanity...i mean point of view.
Are there even any americans that think like him?

its repulsing and sick how people can be so supportive of the repression that takes away their god-given freedoms! :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1337160 - 02/26/03 09:27 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

OOOOH, a challenge from azmodeas. Well that does it! If anyone does agree with me they sure won't come out now.

There are other Americans who agree with me. Those that signed it for one.


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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337179 - 02/26/03 09:40 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

There are other Americans who agree with me. Those that signed it for one.


Oh Please..the patriot act was pushed through in the panic following 9-11. Nobody even had the chance to review it before it was passed.


- It breaks the political backs of the judiciary and legislative branches of government.
- It allows random arrests and detention without hearings or trials for anyone or any group designated by the President. Also allows Retroactive Prosecution...
- It allows the concealment of Presidential records.
- It permits secret "Military Tribunals" for presidentially-designated "terrorists".
- It legalizes "sneak-n-peek" searches and seizures.
- It allows the unlawful infiltration and surveillance of legal, domestic religious, labor and political organizations.
- It allows the wholesale surveillance of private citizens, private business records and other materials without proof of probable cause.
- It destroys all e-mail and internet privacy...

Are you refuting any of those?...You are in the unenviable position of trying to endorse something that I suspect even you know is wrong...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (02/26/03 09:57 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337211 - 02/26/03 10:02 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You seem more preoccupied with (attemps at) insulting other's intelligence than actually proving your points. The sad thing is I am on the side side of the political spectrum as you - your arrogance is doing more harm than good. Please, just shut up.


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OfflineBowlKiller
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1337216 - 02/26/03 10:05 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

not only were they not allowed to review it, if there was any opposition to it then that person would be labeled as "unpatriotic" In other words they were bullied into passing this thing.

Its sick. Really its not like the intentions are even being hidden anymore. I mean dont you know that they were trying to actively pass the patriot act long before Sept. 11. I mean these same acts were being pushed through under other names for at least 2 years before Sept 11. But of course they did not go through because its plain to see how they go against the constitution outright. But now because of Sept. 11th they can just push it through real fast, no review, tell everyone who would object that they will be unamerican and are placed under other threats.

Now you also must know that the Patriot act 2 was LEAKED to the public. It was not given out by the govt. there are still people in there that know what is going on, and the drafts for patriot act 2 were leaked out. Now what does that tell you?? That means that they have been working on patriot act for a while. Why has it not been implemented??? Cause it is so sick, so communistic, so blatantly destructive to the constitution that it might have not been possible to quell oposition to it. Patriot act I is bad enough. So hmmm lets think, why has patriot act II not be passed yet?? Simple, because there has not been a great enough of an "attack" to justify such an act. So, is such an attack comming? who is going to cause it? Al-queda? the taliban? Saddam?? No. The United States Govt. is going to cause such an attack, rush Patriot act 2 through, and then maybe, people will wake up but if you understand anything about patriot act 2 it will be wayyyyy too late.


Anyway theory aside, you can look at the facts and the fact is the patriot act and patriot act 2 are evil.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337240 - 02/26/03 10:11 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Faded, i dont know why you would even respond?!
I am really curious to see if even one other person who READS this thread agrees with you point of view....



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Anonymous]
    #1337273 - 02/26/03 10:21 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You seem more preoccupied with (attemps at) insulting other's intelligence than actually proving your points.




No. That is the fun part. Actually I am preoccupied with trying to do many things at once. I do not really think there is any point to what I am trying to do, But atleast I will be able to say That I tried.

It seems that most people have made up there minds about this issue based on an overall feeling of fear and paranoia. I hear alot about how evil the patriot act is but no one seems willing to break it down objectively. I will try.

And stonefish, Since YOU told me to shutup I will seriously consider it.Promise.


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337280 - 02/26/03 10:22 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Carnivore, Eschelon, Green Lantern, Tempest, Halo

Look them up on google, if you find nothing on them I'm not really supprised, I first heard of Halo and Tempest over 10 years ago while they were still in development...

Halo will disrupt the EMF, preventing any and all electrinic communications including radio

Tempest will allow the government to eavesdrop on your electronic devices, ie...computers, televisions, radios or what ever, and there is no provisions to prevent this

carnivore,eschelon and green lantern should be easy to find. if you feel that the patriot act is the first violation of privacy, you are wrong.

We cannot allow Law Enforcement to be the Law Makers


Prisoner#1


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1337287 - 02/26/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That is funny. I found that same website and am using that in my defense of the PA.


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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337289 - 02/26/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

FadedPinkWings...I see you have the time to post here, Yet I'm still waiting for you to show us how the Patriot act is a good thing.  Having problems finding anything on the internet supporting it are we?... :smirk:


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (02/26/03 10:28 AM)


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1337295 - 02/26/03 10:28 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Nah, The truth is I am not very good on the computer and I am having to learn how to do simple things like cut and paste. Almost there . I do know enough to keep more than one window open  :smirk:

Patience. You will get your chance to ridicule me.


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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337301 - 02/26/03 10:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337303 - 02/26/03 10:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

No need!
Your statement will be ridicule enough.... :smirk:

ANYONE SHARE FADEDS' VIEW OF THE PATRIOT ACT??? :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1337312 - 02/26/03 10:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Wasn't it you who did not even know what the PA was the other day.Read it already, have you? So what do you have to say about it. You prove my point!


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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


Edited by Rono (02/26/03 10:37 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337425 - 02/26/03 11:22 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Few are more to the right here than I am.

The Patriot Act sucks, and will be (hopefully) declared unconstitutional.

And if you weren't ready with your supporting statements you should have been smart enough not to even start this stupid fucking thread. Quite frankly you are a %$#@!&*^%.

(No edit required Rono) :grin:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1337434 - 02/26/03 11:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

nope....maybe you havent noticed I dont even support our government for the last 20 years...seen too much to like it...I know where it's headed and what is to come from it....


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1337567 - 02/26/03 12:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

AH shucks, you truly hurt my feelings. I did not really expect to make any friends here, trust me.


And when it comes to not being ready, Well I actually wanted to see some specific commentary on the main points from you people. I wanted to see if any of you had actually read it or not. Well, so far I am disappointed. It does not seem like anyone has any specific knowledge of what the thing actually says. Everyone just says stuff like "Its evil" or "the patriot act sucks".

As for being so far to the right ,You seem to fit right in here luvdumshrooms.


"The Patriot Act sucks, and will be (hopefully) declared unconstitutional" Brilliant luvdumshrooms, just brilliant.


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


Edited by fadedpinkwings (02/26/03 12:15 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337596 - 02/26/03 12:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

As for being so far to the right ,You seem to fit right in here luvdumshrooms.



Well thanks but you're one of the few who think so.


Quote:

Brilliant luvdumshrooms, just brilliant.



Once again, thanks.

We're still waiting for your brilliant defense of the indefensible.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337604 - 02/26/03 12:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wasn't it you who did not even know what the PA was the other day.Read it already, have you? So what do you have to say about it. You prove my point!




Actually NO, i read the patriot act a couple weeks ago....
I thought it a horrible blow to the american constitution,.....THATS YOU POINT?!
...i thought you were for the patriot act...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337610 - 02/26/03 12:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You Obviously have not read the USAPA, Or you would know that these powers everyone is so afraid of are very specific in thier scope.

actually, i have read the act, and the powers that it grants the government are anything but limited in scope. we're all still waiting for you to figure out how to cut and paste your arguments.

While you echo paranoia rather nicely (you make a good soundboard)

you have yet to prove that i, or anyone here, is paranoid. you've done a pretty good job of proving your own level of naivet? though.

once again you provide no facts.

if you read the posts of others on this board, you would see that they have given many, many facts about what exactly the patriot act does. i don't need to be redundant. you, faded, do not have the same luxury. there is no one here who has beaten you to posting facts supporting your arguments, as there have been those supporting mine. yet you do not post any factual substance. few would argue that it is you who "once again provides no facts".

Do not think because you have huddled with the fear crowd that you are exempt from providing facts.

the fact that the vast majority shares the same view as i do does not make it any less reasonable. there is no reason why you should assume that i feel the way i do because i am simply following the crowd. again i say, it is you who seems to feel that he is "exempt from providing facts".

I will deal with you more directly later.

sounds threatening...

What I am compiling will take some time. Be patient or go to the OTD and kill some time.

good. i'm sure it will be excellent. we'll all be waiting patiently for your compilation of things you've cut and pasted.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Anonymous]
    #1337631 - 02/26/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"What I am compiling will take some time. Be patient or go to the OTD and kill some time."

I did! How much fucking time do i need to waste? Mabye you should compile your argument prior to making such grandoise claims!

But you are much to wise for that! I know you are very wise because you judge us as a group as weare all against the patriot act. But you! Your arguments are unique! NO body agrees with you, so that means that you alone are enlightened.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (02/26/03 12:38 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Phred]
    #1337641 - 02/26/03 12:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Precisely. The problem with the Patriot Act is that it depends on the self restraint of those in power. Even if those in power today are scrupulously honest and fair (and all evidence I have seen leads me to conclude this is not the case), and use the powers granted them by the act in the most minimalist possible manner, there is no guarantee that the person who follows them will be.



Exactly. I wonder how faded would feel if the Patriot Act was passed during the Clinton Administration.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1337677 - 02/26/03 12:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

No one is telling you to sit on the edge of your seat. Geez,  get a life. :smirk:


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337694 - 02/26/03 12:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

....sigh.....

I was just hopeing to have a good laugh before i leave work.....but your right, i can alway check later tonight......or do you need more time?

mabye post the thread again when you have a defence for the patriot act? :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1337703 - 02/26/03 12:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I promise I will post it soon. I am really trying to put alot of thought into this thing. I am expecting a lot of critisism. :tongue:


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337711 - 02/26/03 12:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure you won't be let down...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1337716 - 02/26/03 12:59 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, that is why I started this thread today. I wanted a preview. :blush:


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337722 - 02/26/03 01:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I am expecting a lot of critisism.



That's the first intelligent thing you've written in this post.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1337743 - 02/26/03 01:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

that's the first intelligent thing you've written in this post.




Are you going to start following me around saying dum s**t like azmodeus Does?



--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337749 - 02/26/03 01:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Okay...everyone leave PinkWings alone so that he can finish his homework...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1337756 - 02/26/03 01:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you.  I don't think I will make the grade anyway. The rest of the class does not like me. :smirk:


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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Offlinepimpadelic
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337766 - 02/26/03 01:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

***Post deleted by Rono***


Edited by Rono (02/26/03 01:29 PM)


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: pimpadelic]
    #1337770 - 02/26/03 01:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Allright rono, Do we get to call each other names again?


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337775 - 02/26/03 01:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Sure...if you don't mind getting banned.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337781 - 02/26/03 01:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I dont think he meant to call you a name! :smirk:

And what was that about following you around and posting dumb shit? :frown: 
dont flatter yourself.... :wink: :tongue:

edit: hey! you deleted moron?!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (02/26/03 01:35 PM)


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Invisibleshroomophile
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337788 - 02/26/03 01:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The patriot act is unconstitutional.It's for control freaks who would enslave man.75 years ago America was a shining beacon of liberty and freedom to the world.Now we have become a global bully.I'm confident that one day,America will be restored to the constitutional principals that we were founded on.Some people havn't gotten it yet.The rights declared in the US Constitution are for everyone.When you violate the rights of any person, you are guilty of crimes against humanity.I don't see how anyone cannot see the great abuse of power this will become.The politicans must be laughing their asses off at the foolish sheepish people they control.


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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Offlinepimpadelic
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1337790 - 02/26/03 01:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

What the fuck! What happened to Freedom Of Speech! IF you wanna ban me for callin someone a name than ban me. My god, the irony.


Edited by pimpadelic (02/26/03 01:38 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337821 - 02/26/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Are you going to start following me around



Don't flatter yourself. No-one is following you around.

People just naturally like to respond to foolish opinions.

By the way.... it's been 8 hours. Perhaps if you spent a bit more time posting your "defense", and less time looking over your shoulder, you'd be done by now.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1337879 - 02/26/03 02:06 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Don't flatter yourself. No-one is following you around. People just naturally like to respond to foolish opinions.By the way....  it's been 8 hours. Perhaps if you spent a bit more time posting your "defense", and less time looking over your shoulder, you'd be done by now. 




Trust me ,I was not flattered.

also I have a life outside of this place. I like to check in every now and then. Occasionally something interesting is said.

You sit around waiting for someone to say something foolish do ya? That is about your speed. :smirk: Well then you should stay away from swami cause I think he made you look foolish.

I am done now. I'll be back when I have my homework done.


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


Edited by fadedpinkwings (02/26/03 02:08 PM)


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337964 - 02/26/03 02:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

After following this thread and also reading other comments you have made I have come to a conclusion. You are one of the following three options:

a) insane

b) an attention seeker who likes to make statements that you know other people will disagree with and therefore respond to.

c) a narc


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: MushyMay]
    #1337978 - 02/26/03 02:59 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

d) All of the above


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: pattern]
    #1337984 - 02/26/03 03:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

e) George W. Bush


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: MushyMay]
    #1338013 - 02/26/03 03:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

If I understand my internet terminology b.) is "troll".

I think that's what that means.

This thread should just be locked untill FPW has something ready to post, which he should have had before he even started this thread.  :mad:


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
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Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1338046 - 02/26/03 03:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Noone is forcing us to rspond to this post. That includes you baby hitler.

Hey mush...I think it is both a  and  e :smile:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineCrapula
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1338073 - 02/26/03 03:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Fade, Here is your wonderful Patriot Act in action...........

Santa Fe Police Arrest Attorney For Comments he Made In An Internet Chat-Room

A St. John&#8217;s College Library visit by a former public defender was abruptly interrupted February 13 when city police officers arrested him about 9 p.m. at the computer terminal he was using, handcuffed him, and brought him to the Santa Fe, New Mexico, police station for questioning by Secret Service agents from Albuquerque. Andrew J. O&#8217;Conner, 40, who was released about five hours later, said in the February 16 Santa Fe New Mexican, &#8220;I&#8217;m going to sue the Secret Service, Santa Fe Police, St. John&#8217;s, and everybody involved in this whole thing.&#8221;
According to O&#8217;Connor, the agents accused him of making threatening remarks about President George W. Bush in an Internet chat room. Admitting he talked politics face-to-face in the library with a woman who was wearing a &#8220;No war with Iraq&#8221; button, O&#8217;Connor recalled saying that Bush is &#8220;out of control,&#8221; but that &#8220;I&#8217;m allowed to say all that. There is this thing called freedom of speech.&#8221; He also speculated that the FBI might have been observing him because of his one-time involvement in a pro-Palestinian group in Boulder, Colorado.

Earlier on the same day O&#8217;Connor was questioned, officials at St. John&#8217;s&#8212;as well as at the College of Santa Fe and Santa Fe Community College&#8212;issued warnings to students and faculty that the FBI had been alerted to the presence of &#8220;suspicious&#8221; people on campus within the past four weeks.

Concern about threats to individual privacy under the USA Patriot Act has prompted New Mexico legislators in both houses to propose resolutions urging state police not to help federal agents infringe on civil rights. The resolutions also encourage libraries to post prominent signage warning patrons that their library records are subject to federal scrutiny without their permission or knowledge.
http://www.informationclearinghouse...article1684.htm




------------moral of the story......watch what you say about our President, it may come back to bite you in the ass.

If this doesn't scare you, than I'm afraid there is something wrong with you. (Just my opinion)




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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1338098 - 02/26/03 03:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

61 replies trying to squeeze a rationale for the Patriot Act out of some high school student who couldn't think his way out of an open field.

This takes my vote for the stupidest Political forum thread of all time (although I'm hoping somebody will correct me with some even dumber examples from the past).


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1338461 - 02/26/03 06:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

That is funny. I found that same website and am using that in my defense of the PA.




I've seen no defense of the ACT yet...I'm waiting to see if you can sway my opinion....

Prisoner#1


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Anonymous]
    #1338476 - 02/26/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You seem more preoccupied with (attemps at) insulting other's intelligence than actually proving your points. The sad thing is I am on the side side of the political spectrum as you



That's exactly how I feel about Alex123.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: silversoul7]
    #1339632 - 02/27/03 07:47 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yawn....over a day.....

Information supporting your view must be hard to come by indeed! 

Your all talk and no walk.  :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1339675 - 02/27/03 07:59 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yawn....over a day.....

Information supporting your view must be hard to come by indeed! 

Your all talk and no walk.  :tongue: 



WTF are you talking about???  :confused:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: silversoul7]
    #1339686 - 02/27/03 08:03 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure he meant to reply to PinkWings...


--------------------
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1339699 - 02/27/03 08:08 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I hate it when people reply to the wrong person.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: silversoul7]
    #1339720 - 02/27/03 08:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Did hell freeze this morning? For I agree. People who are too lazy to click "Reply" next to the person they are responding to, need a good beating!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1339759 - 02/27/03 08:37 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Pinkwings...I thought I would try to be helpful and see if I could find anything to support your stance on the Patriot act, but the more I try to help..the more damning the Patriot Act appears...

Here is a list of Rights being trampled by the Patriot act...


* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.



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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: silversoul7]
    #1339780 - 02/27/03 08:45 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I hate it when people reply to the wrong person. 




hahah...me too!...sorry.... :blush: :crazy:


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1339785 - 02/27/03 08:48 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Oh COME ON!!!  It was a simple error.... geess...gimme a break.... :grin:

But im glad to know your watching for post criminals!
....it'll take a sever beating though...or i might make another mistake... :crazy: :laugh:


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1339846 - 02/27/03 09:16 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Good points rono!....but how can they compare to fadeds defence of the patriot act? its soooo well thought out!


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (02/27/03 09:17 AM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1339855 - 02/27/03 09:19 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I suspect he's regretting ever making the comment that he supports the Patriot act. Must have been made in the heat of the moment...either that or he's writing up one hell of an essay.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1339867 - 02/27/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I suspect he's regretting ever making the comment that he supports the Patriot act. Must have been made in the heat of the moment...either that or he's writing up one hell of an essay.




I suspect he's actually laughing his ass off over the fact that he got a whole bunch of otherwise intelligent people to chase after him and waste their time trying to figure out what he's thinking . . . as if it were worth knowing.


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1339915 - 02/27/03 09:41 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I bet he just had to take a giant dump.


--------------------
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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1339919 - 02/27/03 09:42 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

...and ran out of toilet paper.... :shocked: :crazy:


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1340058 - 02/27/03 10:27 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I bet he just had to take a giant dump.


But in order to do that, ***post edited by Rono***and we all know how much he hates doing that.


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Edited by Rono (02/27/03 10:31 AM)


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1340396 - 02/27/03 12:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Quit feeding the paranoia!



Using the word paranoia while supporting the Patriot Act sounds funny to me. Oh no, terrorism is everywhere, lets sacrifice all our rights to stop it! Sounds reasonable and not paranoid at all.
And what's the deal about being patriotic? Do you have to love your country no matter what?


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Skikid16]
    #1340403 - 02/27/03 12:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

***post edited by Rono***

Oh god damnit rono........ geez, I didn't say anything that bad. Can I rephrase it to not say ass?


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Skikid16]
    #1340414 - 02/27/03 12:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

No...insults are not necessary here.


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1340476 - 02/27/03 12:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well theres nothing else in this thread worth reading so you might as well lock it then. The title is defending the patriot act, but the poster never completed his arguments.......
What do you expect when someone post something like "the patriot act is good" and then fucks off for a couple days....all the while insulting those who ask him about his thread.


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1340478 - 02/27/03 12:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Damn you.


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Skikid16]
    #1340509 - 02/27/03 12:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Are you insulting me?.../me keeps my finger hovering above the ban button waiting for a response :wink:


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1340571 - 02/27/03 01:06 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Your a dictator mod for sure! :mad:

I thinks it time to disarm your WMB.....(weapons of mass banning)
..before more insults are deleted... :grin:


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1340587 - 02/27/03 01:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Your a dictator mod for sure! 



Resistance is futile..you will be assimilated. :smirk: 


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1340629 - 02/27/03 01:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes but if you assimilate us do we have to be Canadian?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (02/27/03 02:10 PM)


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1340643 - 02/27/03 01:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

God no!...We prefer to keep all the Riff-Raff in the U.S. away ... :smirk:


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1340735 - 02/27/03 02:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Just for that, I'm going to buy the house next door to you and drive down the property values. :cool:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1340780 - 02/27/03 02:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Are you insulting me?.../me keeps my finger hovering above the ban button waiting for a response

Who....... me........nah........never would I insult you. *cough, cough sealclubing,bad beerdrinking,hockeywatching,lumberjackhomo cough*  oh geez, excuse me, sorry, I think I'm coming down with a cold.






:grin:


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Skikid16]
    #1340904 - 02/27/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

*cough, cough sealclubing,bad beerdrinking,hockeywatching,lumberjackhomo cough*


  Hey...screw you! I'm not a homo... :smirk:


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Rono]
    #1340926 - 02/27/03 03:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I have proof that aliens from outer space are running the government. I'll show it to you just as soon as I finish flossing my toes


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
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Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1340963 - 02/27/03 03:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You're supposed to stop pushing when the Q-tip hits something...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (02/27/03 03:57 PM)


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