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Anonymous

for silversoul7
    #2309452 - 02/06/04 05:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I should've said I disagree with the founding fathers. Not that I don't appreciate what they did--I just disagree with the premise of Natural Rights, as I have explained before. But to keep the thread on-topic, I will not go any further into that.

could you explain?

what are rights?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309457 - 02/06/04 05:22 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

According to dictionary.com:

Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature.

Now, I happen to disagree with the nature part of the equation. Nature doesn't owe anyone shit. That answer your question?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309482 - 02/06/04 05:30 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

no it doesn't. your definition, fetched from the dictionary and then editted reads:

"Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition"

note the word due, not granted. this definition does not exclude the idea of natural rights. it would actually seem to imply it...

are rights nothing more than something granted by government?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309503 - 02/06/04 05:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, so perhaps I should not have used the word granted. My point is that there is no universal set of rights. There is no natural law governing which rights people have, and which ones they don't. It's nice to think that there are, but I see no evidence of this. Our concept of what our rights are is culturally determined, as are most of our morals.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309559 - 02/06/04 05:50 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

do different people have the same rights?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309701 - 02/06/04 06:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I'm not so sure I agree with the idea of rights. I think people just have different expectations of what is due to them, and none of them is necessarily more right than the others.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309726 - 02/06/04 06:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

rights aren't something due to you. they are innate. if you were the only person alive, you would still have liberty. you would have pure, unrestrained, absolute liberty. you don't need anyone to give it to you. liberty is nothing more than a lack of restriction on behavior. rights cannot be granted to you by any government... force cannot enable you to do anything, it can only prevent you from doing things.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309740 - 02/06/04 06:40 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well if rights are the same as unrestrained liberty, then I have the right to do anything, including initiating force upon others. It is therefore the duty of government to take away certain rights(the right to kill, the right to steal, etc.).


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309757 - 02/06/04 06:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

by killing or stealing, you are restraining liberty.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309791 - 02/06/04 06:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

So?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309804 - 02/06/04 07:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

that which is not already right by nature cannot be made right by an act of legislation. rights are not granted by the law, though they should be protected by it. if rights are nothing more than something granted to you by the most physically powerful human individual (or group) in your sphere of existance, they are really nothing at all.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309807 - 02/06/04 07:02 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see you answering my simple, one-word question.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309809 - 02/06/04 07:03 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

give me a second, alright?

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309827 - 02/06/04 07:09 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

liberty is the absence of external restraint on freedom to act. when you initiate force against someone, you have imposed a restraint on their freedom to act. therefore, the initiation of force is not included in liberty... because while liberty is the absence of external restraint on freedom to act, force is exactly that.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309831 - 02/06/04 07:11 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

liberty is the absence of external restraint on freedom to act. when you initiate force against someone, you have imposed a restraint on their freedom to act. therefore, the initiation of force is not included in liberty



I don't follow. All your initial claim seems to indicate is that sometimes one person's liberty can infringe upon another's.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309840 - 02/06/04 07:14 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I think mushmaster is confusing rights with abilities.

If a door is locked, I have the ability to kick it in, but I do not have the right.

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309846 - 02/06/04 07:15 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

it can't. a lack of external restraint on behavior cannot at the same time be an external restraint on behavior.

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309852 - 02/06/04 07:17 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I think mushmaster is confusing rights with abilities.

do you mean silversoul?

If a door is locked, I have the ability to kick it in, but I do not have the right.

if it's your door, you do, because you are not imposing a restraint on another person's freedom of action. if it's not your door, you do not have the liberty to kick it in, because to do so would be a restraint on a person's freedom of action.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309863 - 02/06/04 07:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

sounds like etheral concepts to me. not much to do with nature.

the truth is that, by nature, I have the ability to do almost anything. I can rape, rob, pillage and steal. There is nothing natural restricting me from doing these things. these activities are not against the laws of physics. Thats why society had to invent government, and government had to invent rights and restrictions.

I agree with the founding fathers in principle, but principle is not reality, unfortunately.

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309881 - 02/06/04 07:27 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

the truth is that, by nature, I have the ability to do almost anything. I can rape, rob, pillage and steal. There is nothing natural restricting me from doing these things. these activities are not against the laws of physics.

this is why we're talking about natural rights, not natural abilities.

Thats why society had to invent government, and government had to invent rights and restrictions.

i'm sure you're not so naive as to think that government was invented to secure people's rights.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309913 - 02/06/04 07:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
it can't. a lack of external restraint on behavior cannot at the same time be an external restraint on behavior.



That sounds logical, until you put personal pronouns in there:

A lack of external restraint on my behavior CAN at the same time be an external restraint on your behavior.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309919 - 02/06/04 07:41 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

and that's what distinguishes an ability from a right.

if there was no such thing as government, would you lose any rights you currently have?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309946 - 02/06/04 07:50 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

if there was no such thing as government, would you lose any rights you currently have?



Well, let's see--since a right is that which is due to me, I would think that the concept of rights would be irrelevant. But I still don't know what is due to me.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309966 - 02/06/04 07:58 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

if the government disappeared tomorrow, and the concept of force was suddenly beyond the realm of human thought, you would still have freedom of expression. you could smoke a joint, go for a walk, eat a carrot, or throw a frisbee. these things are rights. you could not kill or rape someone. these are not rights. rights cannot come into existence by way of force; they are only destroyed by it.

the government cannot give you a right to do anything you previously had no right to do.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309968 - 02/06/04 07:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

if there was no such thing as government, would you lose any rights you currently have?





why dont you go to south america with no money or US passport and find out :lol:

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309970 - 02/06/04 08:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

why dont you go to south america with no money or US passport and find out

i don't catch your meaning. they have government in south america, do they not?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309976 - 02/06/04 08:03 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

yes they do. and those governments dont give you as many rights as you would enjoy here.

they will lock you up in cruel conditions with no trial, and you will have no other choice but to take it up the ass or commit suicide via cop.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309985 - 02/06/04 08:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

if the government disappeared tomorrow, and the concept of force was suddenly beyond the realm of human thought, you would still have freedom of expression. you could smoke a joint, go for a walk, eat a carrot, or throw a frisbee. these things are rights. you could not kill or rape someone. these are not rights.



Well ya, if you eliminated the concept of force, then I couldn't rape and kill someone, but government and force are not the same thing. If just the government disappeared, I could kill or rapes someone just as easily as someone else could do the same to me.

Quote:

rights cannot come into existence by way of force; they are only destroyed by it.




I'm not talking about them coming into existence. But I still don't see how my rights don't extend to the ability to infringe upon others' rights. There are a lot of things I could do if the government disappeared, and initiating force against others is one of them. Government is essentially a monopoly of force. It keeps people in line by being the only entity allowed to use force. Otherwise we could all just all use force against each other.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309993 - 02/06/04 08:10 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

yes they do. and those governments dont give you as many rights as you would enjoy here.

you have the same rights as you do here, but they are not protected as they are here. the question was about if there was no government. drop me off on a desert island with no cash or passport and i will not lose a single right. in your example, the government has stripped me of my rights by initiating force, and this is exactly the point. rights are not granted by any government, only stripped away.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309997 - 02/06/04 08:11 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

if there are any other human beings on that desert island you will probably lose your rights very quickly.

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310012 - 02/06/04 08:18 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

...but government and force are not the same thing. If just the government disappeared, I could kill or rapes someone just as easily as someone else could do the same to me.

government and force are the same thing. if there was no government, you could not rape or kill anyone. to do so would be to impose government on them. it would be a one-man, one-subject dictatorship.

I'm not talking about them coming into existence.

that's really what this is all about.

But I still don't see how my rights don't extend to the ability to infringe upon others' rights.

that's because you're still confusing rights with abilities.

There are a lot of things I could do if the government disappeared, and initiating force against others is one of them.

no, because you would then be a government.

Government is essentially a monopoly of force. It keeps people in line by being the only entity allowed to use force. Otherwise we could all just all use force against each other.

and in any sphere of existence, one of us would be the most capable of projecting force. this one would be the government. that's how governments first formed.

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2310022 - 02/06/04 08:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)


if there are any other human beings on that desert island you will probably lose your rights very quickly.


and if there weren't?

and if there were but they did not use force?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310023 - 02/06/04 08:22 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

government and force are the same thing. if there was no government, you could not rape or kill anyone. to do so would be to impose government on them. it would be a one-man, one-subject dictatorship.



You have an extremely loose definition of government, and I'm afraid I can't accept such a definition. However, I will concede that if such a definition were to be accepted, then your argument would make perfect sense.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310042 - 02/06/04 08:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

government is the individual or group of individuals in any one place with the greatest ability to project force. there is no government in the world that does not meet this criterion... those that don't are overthrown... or simply ignored by the real government. i don't see what's loose about this definition at all. it's precisely what a government is.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310053 - 02/06/04 08:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Government and force are related, but are not the same thing. And no, it is not the individual or group of individuals with the greatest ability to project force. We are all more or less equal in our ability to initiate force. It is the ruling body which the people agree to give a monopoly of force to, thus giving up their right to use force. If I mug someone, no one is agreeing to allow me a monopoly on force. I am merely taking my own initiative in using force against another person, and nobody would dare say that the victim does not have the right to fight back. Nor would anyone say that I have more right to mug someone than they do to mug me. It is not so with the government.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310055 - 02/06/04 08:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

If I were alone on a desert island, would I be able to force others to pay for my food or health care, or to pay me 'a living wage'? I bring these up because they are often talked of as 'rights' by those of a 'left leaning' persuasion.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: Evolving]
    #2310072 - 02/06/04 08:41 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Of course not, because there would be no others around. But I don't see why the " alone on a desert island" argument has to keep coming up in discussion of rights. We are social creatures, and live by rules as such. If I were to be stranded on an island with other people, I would consider it right and proper if everyone was expected to share food with everyone else, even if everyone wasn't equally productive.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310073 - 02/06/04 08:41 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

We are all more or less equal in our ability to initiate force.

not true. i do not have a greater ability to initiate force than the current US government. i can declare my yard to be my own sovereign territory, but it isn't because i do not have the greatest ability to project force in this space... the current US government does. if i did have a greater ability to project force, i would be the government. if they still ruled, it would be only with my consent. governments are, and have always been, at the helms of the most powerful armies in their respective territories. this is true wherever you go, in any time or place.

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310079 - 02/06/04 08:43 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

But I don't see why the " alone on a desert island" argument has to keep coming up in discussion of rights.

because it's a good way to seperate what is granted to you by other individuals from what is innate to your own self.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310080 - 02/06/04 08:43 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

not true. i do not have a greater ability to initiate force than the current US government.



This is only because the vast majority of people have decided to allow them that ability. A government cannot exist for long without the support of the people.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310094 - 02/06/04 08:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

A government cannot exist for long without the support of the people.

you may want to rethink that. there are a great many governments that exist today without the support of the people. throughout history, there have been very few democratically-supported governments. government was always simply the title held by whomever could most effectively raise an army. it's all pretty irelevent though... the government is the most powerful force in the land. how it becomes that way is not important here.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310099 - 02/06/04 08:50 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

People living under dictatorships may not like their government very much, but as long as they choose not rebel, they are supporting it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310101 - 02/06/04 08:51 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

even if that were true, it doesn't change the fact that the government still is nothing more than the most powerful force in the land.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310103 - 02/06/04 08:52 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Even if that were true, that doesn't make it the same thing as force, as you were saying it is.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310111 - 02/06/04 08:57 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

it's a certain kind of force.

when you govern you enforce.

government action, policy, and decision, is always supported with force. when you feel the hand of government, it will come in the form of coercion.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310117 - 02/06/04 08:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

*yawn*

read slowly:

That still does not make it the same thing as force. It is a specific kind of force.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310118 - 02/06/04 08:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

when you say that the government, through its action, grants rights, you are saying that rights are granted by force.

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310120 - 02/06/04 09:00 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Didn't I already retract my statement about the government granting rights? If not, I'll do so now.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2310125 - 02/06/04 09:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

that's a start. do people have rights?

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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2310141 - 02/06/04 09:11 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
that's a start. do people have rights?



Hard to say. This thread has left me in even greater confusion as to what rights are. From what I've gathered, rights = abilities - force, so I suppose so, as people have abilities which do not involve initiation of force(though I think that's up for debate). However, if we are to live in a state society, there needs to be some coersion in order to maintain that society.


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Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2311291 - 02/07/04 10:10 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I believe in the concept of "natural rights", but i also acknowledge that it is just a concept. It has no physical basis in reality, though the potential is there. Like "manifest destiny".

EDIT: sorry to be popping in and out of this discussion, but I have a lot of business to attend to in the "real" world.

Edited by DoctorJ (02/07/04 10:28 AM)

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