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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 120
Defending the patriot act
    #1336661 - 02/26/03 05:40 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

John Podesta

Many of the electronic surveillance provisions in the Patriot Act faced serious opposition prior to September 11 from a coalition of privacy advocates, computer users, and elements of high-tech industry. The events of September 11 convinced many in that coalition and overwhelming majorities in Congress that law enforcement and national security officials need new legal tools to fight terrorism.

But we should not forget what gave rise to the original opposition?many aspects of the bill increase the opportunity for law enforcement and the intelligence community to return to an era where they monitored and sometimes harassed individuals who were merely exercising their First Amendment rights. Nothing that occurred on September 11 mandates that we return to such an era. If anything, the events of September 11 should redouble our resolve to protect the rights we as Americans cherish.

Therefore, as the new powers granted under the Patriot Act begin to be exercised, we should not only feel more confident that our country has the tools to be safe but we should be ever vigilant that these new tools are not abused.

John Podesta is a visiting professor of law at the Georgetown University Law Center. He served as President Clinton?s chief of staff from 1998-2001.

Fadedpinkwings

I wanted to post this as a beginning to my defense of the patriot act. The point here is that we are not helpless because of the passage of this act. We are still obligated to watch our government and ensure that it does the right thing with the powers that it has!

There are many safeguards put in place within the USDPA to ensure that our constitutional rights are not violated. I will expound on them later once I have organised my thoughts on the matter.

Anyone who has not read the patriot act should do so. do not entrust your mind to paranoid interpretations of the act.Read it and form your own conclusions. I will post more directly.





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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


Edited by fadedpinkwings (02/26/03 05:49 AM)


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336685 - 02/26/03 05:55 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

basically the PA opens the doors on wiretaps and basically is supreme invasion of privacy, can declare anyone an enemy combatant and not have to provide reason or even let anyone know what is going on. i don't see what theres not to be paranoid about. to make sure it doesn't get abused you'd have to monitor every agent or police officer using their PA privlages and thats just not possible. before a judge would have to issue permission based on evidence to collect survalence on someone which was the means of keeping agents in check. but not any more. joe schmoe dea or fbi or atf or country cop can go invade your rights now. THERE IS NO WAY OF SAFEGUARDING EVERY CORRUPT COP/AGENT/POLITITION OUT THERE FROM ABUSING NEW POWERS. when/if this whole terrorism sharade ends, it will be common practice to be using these powers for whatever reasons they adopted them for. lets say some local cops figure out that there might not be any terrorists in their town but with roaming wiretaps they sure can catch a lot of drug deals. so they abuse the power in the name of fighting drugs or fighting UV radiation or in the name of god or whatever. you cannot TRUST government or people in positions of power to not eventually corrupt themselves.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Registered: 01/15/03
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Eightball]
    #1336717 - 02/26/03 06:08 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

before a judge would have to issue permission based on evidence to collect survalence on someone which was the means of keeping agents in check. but not any more.




This statement shows your ignorance. If you do not want to read the act for your self, relax, I will post some truth about these issues shortly.


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I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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Invisiblesever
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336755 - 02/26/03 06:19 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 06:21 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336768 - 02/26/03 06:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Some people wonder how a regime like Nazi Germany could have come into being, how the German citizens could have supported the growth of such a monstrosity. Thank you for providing us with an insight into understanding such things...


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336774 - 02/26/03 06:24 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Faded, although you are entitled to your opinion, I honestly don't understand how ANYONE could support the Patriot act. It's only purpose is to give the government even more power against it's own people. This does nothing but promote even more fear and paranoia than is already in place in the U.S. I hope you are never declared as an "enemy combatant" for smoking a joint...because you won't be able to even protest your arrest...you will have NO rights whatsoever, that includes rights to councel.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (02/26/03 06:25 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Evolving]
    #1336783 - 02/26/03 06:27 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

well put..


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: sever]
    #1336799 - 02/26/03 06:31 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I am compiling a list of safeguard and time limit clauses from the USAPA right now. Although I understand your paranoia , it is not justified when you really read the information.

The situations in which most of these powers can be used are extremely limited! After reading the documents for myself I realize most all of the apprehensions are based on a fear of the government in general. It is our government.

Fear of the government takes it out of our hands!


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: sever]
    #1336801 - 02/26/03 06:32 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

severenet writes:

Give an egotistical fear mongerer politition the power to be king, and he will be king.

Precisely. The problem with the Patriot Act is that it depends on the self restraint of those in power. Even if those in power today are scrupulously honest and fair (and all evidence I have seen leads me to conclude this is not the case), and use the powers granted them by the act in the most minimalist possible manner, there is no guarantee that the person who follows them will be.

This is precisely how the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights were eroded to the point where they are now mere words on aging pieces of paper. It didn't happen all at once, it was a steady nibbling away at the corners here and there over a period of decades and even centuries; nibbles that may even have been taken by people who were sincerely convinced they were doing the right thing.

Some things (despite what the Pragmatists try to tell you) can't be compromised. Some things can't be left to the supposed fairness and reasonableness of those in power.

pinky



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Invisiblesever
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336833 - 02/26/03 06:42 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 06:18 PM)


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Registered: 01/15/03
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336844 - 02/26/03 06:45 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I do not want to close all of your minds anymore than fear and paranoia already has by saying the wrong thing now.So I will be careful.

But the truth is noone here seems to understand what the PA actually says. It is as if an irrational and crippling fear has skewed your thinking. Bear with me and I will try and make it very clear for all of you.

BTW evolving, there is absolutely no relationship to this and Nazi Germany. Quit feeding the paranoia!


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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Offlinepimpadelic
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336874 - 02/26/03 07:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The truth is you don't seem to Understand the Patriot Act.


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Invisiblesever
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336881 - 02/26/03 07:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

~


Edited by sever (07/17/06 06:15 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336894 - 02/26/03 07:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BTW evolving, there is absolutely no relationship to this and Nazi Germany. Quit feeding the paranoia!



It is not paranoia to learn from history. Recent U.S. history is full of examples of incrementalism where a particular piece of legislation was passed with a specific intent cited by the legislators. However, the legislation is usually left very vague and open ended. A couple of years later, government agents are enforcing the law in manners in which it was never stated to be used or to a greater extent than was ever (explicitly) intended. An old example - the income tax, a newer example - asset forfeiture laws.

Look at the history of the WOD drugs!!! Look at WACO and Ruby Ridge! Look at the long list of examples of police abuse and murder under color of authority. Are you blind to the abuse of power that has taken place?

People who blindly believe the good intentions of their governments are the reason governments like Nazi Germany come into being. Whenever you grant government the power for the purpose of 'doing good,' you grant and equal amount of power to the government to do evil. Good intentions mean nothing, it's results that count. History tells us to expect governments to abuse any power that is granted to them

Do me a favor and read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Compare these documents with the Patriot Act and The Patriot Act II.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (02/26/03 07:27 AM)


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OfflineBowlKiller
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1336909 - 02/26/03 07:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

faded are you serious?

I have read the patriot act. I have read the patriot act 2. I have read news reports where people are being raided by S.W.A.T. teams simply for cooking BBQ because people are reporting them, saying that they are biological labs. (I suppose they think this because the see smoke, I really dont know). People are being arrested for speaking out vs. America and policies. People are being detained in this country (USA) simply for having videos that show how a police state is comming. I have witnessed situations where cops violate the law by taking people detaining them for hours, trying to make up false charges, taking away property (stealing). So besides all the terrible things written in the patriot acts, what about the training and brainwashing of the police?

Seriously you dont see anything wrong with a neighbor calling the cops because you are cooking on a BBQ pit and they think you have a biological lab, and the swat team shows up invades your home, while you are at gunpoint? And this is not theory, thats the thing, this is really happening. People are being stopped in thier cars for no reason, searched, detained, harrased.

I really simply can not understand where you are coming from faded. I can't imagine that you are being serious.

And please do not patronize me by saying I am spreading delusion or panic.



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Anonymous

Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337036 - 02/26/03 08:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

faded... the patriot act is very bad... now, other than accusing others on this board of ignorance and paranoia, and saying that you'll get back to us with facts, you haven't really said much; nothing you've said has very much weight or substance.

it seems as though you trust the government not only to not abuse these new powers, but to not even use them to their full extent. i assure you faded, they will do anything and everything that the patriot act allows them to do, and when no one's watching, even more. and we're all waiting on the facts you claim to have...

We are still obligated to watch our government and ensure that it does the right thing with the powers that it has!

i ask you faded, do you think that the government does the right thing with the powers it has now? (do you support the war on drugs? was waco, ruby ridge, and the MOVE fiasco "doing the right thing"?). "all obligated to watch"? under laws like the patriot act, watching is all we're going to be able to do.

you seem to trust our government. i ask you... why?

i do hope that you refrain from commiting any illegal acts. if you don't, maybe some day you'll find that you've been given "enemy combattant" status... then maybe you'll be able to find out exactly what "extradited for processing" means.

do not be so naive. people who thought like you are the ones who let hitler rise to power. they trusted their government.


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 120
Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: ]
    #1337079 - 02/26/03 08:55 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Nice speech mush ::clapping::


You Obviously have not read the USAPA, Or you would know that these powers everyone is so afraid of are very specific in thier scope.

While you echo paranoia rather nicely (you make a good soundboard) once again you provide no facts. Do not think because you have huddled with the fear crowd that you are exempt from providing facts. I will deal with you more directly later.


What I am compiling will take some time. Be patient or go to the OTD and kill some time.



--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337133 - 02/26/03 09:16 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm, i challenge anyone to share pinkwings insanity...i mean point of view.
Are there even any americans that think like him?

its repulsing and sick how people can be so supportive of the repression that takes away their god-given freedoms! :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblefadedpinkwings
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1337160 - 02/26/03 09:27 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

OOOOH, a challenge from azmodeas. Well that does it! If anyone does agree with me they sure won't come out now.

There are other Americans who agree with me. Those that signed it for one.


--------------------
I hope all bleeding hearts Die from bloodloss!!!!!


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Defending the patriot act [Re: fadedpinkwings]
    #1337179 - 02/26/03 09:40 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

There are other Americans who agree with me. Those that signed it for one.


Oh Please..the patriot act was pushed through in the panic following 9-11. Nobody even had the chance to review it before it was passed.


- It breaks the political backs of the judiciary and legislative branches of government.
- It allows random arrests and detention without hearings or trials for anyone or any group designated by the President. Also allows Retroactive Prosecution...
- It allows the concealment of Presidential records.
- It permits secret "Military Tribunals" for presidentially-designated "terrorists".
- It legalizes "sneak-n-peek" searches and seizures.
- It allows the unlawful infiltration and surveillance of legal, domestic religious, labor and political organizations.
- It allows the wholesale surveillance of private citizens, private business records and other materials without proof of probable cause.
- It destroys all e-mail and internet privacy...

Are you refuting any of those?...You are in the unenviable position of trying to endorse something that I suspect even you know is wrong...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (02/26/03 09:57 AM)


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