Home | Community | Message Board


FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
Anonymous

for silversoul7
    #2309452 - 02/06/04 07:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I guess I should've said I disagree with the founding fathers. Not that I don't appreciate what they did--I just disagree with the premise of Natural Rights, as I have explained before. But to keep the thread on-topic, I will not go any further into that.

could you explain?

what are rights?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309457 - 02/06/04 07:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

According to dictionary.com:

Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature.

Now, I happen to disagree with the nature part of the equation. Nature doesn't owe anyone shit. That answer your question?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309482 - 02/06/04 07:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

no it doesn't. your definition, fetched from the dictionary and then editted reads:

"Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition"

note the word due, not granted. this definition does not exclude the idea of natural rights. it would actually seem to imply it...

are rights nothing more than something granted by government?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309503 - 02/06/04 07:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, so perhaps I should not have used the word granted. My point is that there is no universal set of rights. There is no natural law governing which rights people have, and which ones they don't. It's nice to think that there are, but I see no evidence of this. Our concept of what our rights are is culturally determined, as are most of our morals.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309559 - 02/06/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

do different people have the same rights?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309701 - 02/06/04 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I guess I'm not so sure I agree with the idea of rights. I think people just have different expectations of what is due to them, and none of them is necessarily more right than the others.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309726 - 02/06/04 08:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

rights aren't something due to you. they are innate. if you were the only person alive, you would still have liberty. you would have pure, unrestrained, absolute liberty. you don't need anyone to give it to you. liberty is nothing more than a lack of restriction on behavior. rights cannot be granted to you by any government... force cannot enable you to do anything, it can only prevent you from doing things.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309740 - 02/06/04 08:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well if rights are the same as unrestrained liberty, then I have the right to do anything, including initiating force upon others. It is therefore the duty of government to take away certain rights(the right to kill, the right to steal, etc.).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309757 - 02/06/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

by killing or stealing, you are restraining liberty.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309791 - 02/06/04 08:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309804 - 02/06/04 09:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

that which is not already right by nature cannot be made right by an act of legislation. rights are not granted by the law, though they should be protected by it. if rights are nothing more than something granted to you by the most physically powerful human individual (or group) in your sphere of existance, they are really nothing at all.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309807 - 02/06/04 09:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't see you answering my simple, one-word question.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309809 - 02/06/04 09:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

give me a second, alright?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309827 - 02/06/04 09:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

liberty is the absence of external restraint on freedom to act. when you initiate force against someone, you have imposed a restraint on their freedom to act. therefore, the initiation of force is not included in liberty... because while liberty is the absence of external restraint on freedom to act, force is exactly that.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309831 - 02/06/04 09:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

liberty is the absence of external restraint on freedom to act. when you initiate force against someone, you have imposed a restraint on their freedom to act. therefore, the initiation of force is not included in liberty



I don't follow. All your initial claim seems to indicate is that sometimes one person's liberty can infringe upon another's.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309840 - 02/06/04 09:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think mushmaster is confusing rights with abilities.

If a door is locked, I have the ability to kick it in, but I do not have the right.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: silversoul7]
    #2309846 - 02/06/04 09:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

it can't. a lack of external restraint on behavior cannot at the same time be an external restraint on behavior.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309852 - 02/06/04 09:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think mushmaster is confusing rights with abilities.

do you mean silversoul?

If a door is locked, I have the ability to kick it in, but I do not have the right.

if it's your door, you do, because you are not imposing a restraint on another person's freedom of action. if it's not your door, you do not have the liberty to kick it in, because to do so would be a restraint on a person's freedom of action.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: for silversoul7 [Re: ]
    #2309863 - 02/06/04 09:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

sounds like etheral concepts to me. not much to do with nature.

the truth is that, by nature, I have the ability to do almost anything. I can rape, rob, pillage and steal. There is nothing natural restricting me from doing these things. these activities are not against the laws of physics. Thats why society had to invent government, and government had to invent rights and restrictions.

I agree with the founding fathers in principle, but principle is not reality, unfortunately.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: for silversoul7 [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2309881 - 02/06/04 09:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the truth is that, by nature, I have the ability to do almost anything. I can rape, rob, pillage and steal. There is nothing natural restricting me from doing these things. these activities are not against the laws of physics.

this is why we're talking about natural rights, not natural abilities.

Thats why society had to invent government, and government had to invent rights and restrictions.

i'm sure you're not so naive as to think that government was invented to secure people's rights.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Liberty Yet Lives Ancalagon 259 0 11/04/04 04:48 PM
by Ancalagon
* Loss of personal Liberties? Phred 926 17 01/13/08 11:54 PM
by MrBump
* Positive & Negative Liberties in Three Dimensions lonestar2004 867 5 06/20/05 11:32 PM
by Phred
* The Tao of Liberty: wu wei and laissez-faire
( 1 2 all )
Silversoul 2,285 23 05/15/05 01:05 PM
by Silversoul
* john kerry's record on civil liberties Anonymous 482 3 09/30/04 04:41 PM
by silversoul7
* Judge: Ad Restrictions Unconstitutional luvdemshrooms 374 2 06/03/04 09:55 PM
by Redo
* Fighting for The Liberties We Cherish Evolving 323 5 09/16/04 12:56 PM
by DoctorJ
* Restricted Court
cb9fl
299 0 06/04/05 11:47 AM
by cb9fl

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,924 topic views. 3 members, 3 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.062 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 17 queries.