Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2298750 -

who should it answer to?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2298804 -

Quote:
infidelGOD said:
I see no difference between cloning a human being and cloning a plant

that's pretty much what I'm saying.

THIS is what's so frightening to some people.

they want to believe that humans are "special".



turning ppl into EDIT: beasts-of-burden is bad enough without making us into vegetables..anyway what that means..is that we merely become commodities to be manufactured by the cloners..even if we dont have much control over the process at this point in time...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (02/04/04 01:19 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2299154 -

we ARE animals...... is your head up your product-cleansed ass?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Strumpling]
    #2299215 -

we ARE animals
i still had only two legs..the last time i looked...and pls dont try to tell me that you have three...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2299245 -

birds only have two legs too... what the hell kind argument is that?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Strumpling]
    #2299261 -

i am a "bird"..at least when im in the UK...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2299266 -

you honestly think we are somehow not animals?

we're monkeys with neat tools and good balance. Look at George W Bush and then look at a chimp and tell me you can't see the connection


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: ]
    #2299859 -

who should it answer to?

it should answer to those in need of it
(see my example of the Jehovah's witnesses and blood transfusions)

I think human cloning has to be understood in context of the larger debate about the source of the soul

some people think that what is referred to as the "soul" is merely an emergent property of biology, genetics and environment.

others think that the soul is something given to us by a higher power - a supernatual, metaphysical source.

I don't know which is true, but succesful human cloning would seem to strongly support one of these theories...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Strumpling]
    #2300345 -

Look at George W Bush and then look at a chimp and tell me you can't see the connection

theres no reason to be rude to the chimp...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2300384 -

:grin: :grin: :grin:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Strumpling]
    #2300562 -

yeah there is a striking resemblence:

http://www.math.uu.nl/people/gill/bush.jpg


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2300581 -

I like this one too:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2300660 -

The body-mind-psyche (created through 0's and 1's and shaped by environment) is a device which creates a unique window on the universe through which pure, changeless, eternal consciousness peers out on creation. As long as a functioning window is created, I don't see why pure consciousness will not look through it. No matter who puts together a t.v., if all the components are present it will pick up and display a signal.

That being said, the idea of cloning still gives me the creeps. Up until very recently every living thing on this planet could trace it's lineage back through the aeons, through the limbs of the tree of life to the very root of life. Every organism belonged to and was a part of this tree of life. Until recently every organism carried in it's DNA a record of it's historic journey through evolutionary time, from the first cell to YOU. This is AMAZING and BEAUTIFUL! Genetic engineering is the beginning of the death of this tree. This is the metaphysical destruction of our origins.

In a materialistic age I know this argument will have very little merit. People want to cheat personal death, the death of the individual ego, the destruction of the unique window on creation with which they have falsely come to identify themselves. Out of their horror at facing the inevitable prospect of death, and out of their desire to capture the ever receeding mirage of material satisfaction, they have begun to uproot and hack apart the tree of life. And in their frenzy and fear, they are not going to listen to "religious nuts" who tell them that what they are doing is ultimately self-destruction.

The current world system is run on the principle of greed. The power of the genome, the tree of life, in the hands of greed is a frightening thought. The desire to have this power over life is only another symptom of human ignorance and suffering, not a cure for it.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Source]
    #2300842 -

Every organism belonged to and was a part of this tree of life. Until recently every organism carried in it's DNA a record of it's historic journey through evolutionary time, from the first cell to YOU. This is AMAZING and BEAUTIFUL!

I absolutely agree with you here. it is beautiful and amazing.
however the next sentence:

Genetic engineering is the beginning of the death of this tree. This is the metaphysical destruction of our origins.

is where I disagree. I think that genetic engineering is just a furthur branching out of this tree. I even think that technology itself is a part of this tree. the problem is in seeing it as an entirely biological entity. who's to say that technology isn't the next step in evolution?

The current world system is run on the principle of greed. The power of the genome, the tree of life, in the hands of greed is a frightening thought. The desire to have this power over life is only another symptom of human ignorance and suffering, not a cure for it.

I like what you have to say here. as trendal pointed out, there is tremendous potential for abuse. there is also a lot of good that can come of it. this is true of all powerful technologies. should the possible negatives prevent us from progress?
it's never stopped us before, and it'll probably happen anyway despite all the moral objections... so maybe the best thing to do is insure that we can wield this power responsibly instead of trying to resist it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2301127 -

The reason that I don't see a genetically engineered organism as part of the tree is that is has no true hereditary lineage. It's a mishmash of histories at best or a false history (human created genes) at worst. Hereditary lineage is the branch that connects an organism to the tree. Genetically altered organisms are orhpaned from this tree. I have to admit that a perfect clone of a natural organism would contain the unaltered lineage and would therefore be a part of the tree. But we all know that identical cloning is not where this is headed.

A new "tree" has started parallel to, or overlapping, the tree of life. This tree (arguably) began with language and has evolved into culture and eventually technology. Technology is not a further branch of the tree of life, it's a new branch on the "tree of knowledge". Should the new tree consume the old?

If it is true (and I believe the evidence is with me on this) that the current world system is based on greed, then the "possible negatives" become "inevitable negatives" and there will be no way to wield this power responsibly.

Since we unlocked the power of the atom our world has possibly never been in more danger than it is right now. We've had over half a century to learn to responsibly deal with this force and have failed. Nuclear weapons and technological know-how are proliferating across the globe, falling into more and more hands and now it's just a matter of time. Are we really ready to unleash another, more powerful force?

The real question isn't whether or not we are responsible enough to weild this power, the real question is: why do we want to? Is it really going to usher in an age where there are no wants? Is it going to finally alleviate our desperate search for peace inside and outside ourselves? Or is it just another phantasm leading us further from the truth that we can only find peace when we accept life on its own terms?

What is this "progress" that everyone is always talking about? What are we progressing towards? What is the price of this progress? What are we moving away from? Have we really taken stock of where we are now, RIGHT NOW!?

But, alas, you're right. It is inevitable.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2301458 -

Quote:
who should it answer to?

it should answer to those in need of it
(see my example of the Jehovah's witnesses and blood transfusions)



The term "need" means nothing without first naming a goal. So what is the goal of genetic engineering? To prolong life? To eliminate disease? To "prove" your side of a petty debate over beliefs?

You ask WHY are there some who oppose cloning. Give me any reason why you support cloning and I will provide you with a reason why I think it's a lousy idea.


Quote:
what is human cloning?

simply stated: it's taking human DNA and creating a human being


A bit too simply stated I'd say. Cloning involves replication of a person. There is no recombination of genetic material invloved and this is the number one biggest problem. There is no natural precedence for genetic reproduction without recombination yet no one seems to consider the possible dangers here. Do we understand how genetic material will behave when it is replicated without being combined with other genetic material? We don't, therefore proceeding with it is incredibly irresponsible.

Quote:
...human cloning will answer one of the most important questions in philosophy and religion (which is a part of the reason there is so much opposition)



Please explain how cloning will convince those opposed to your perrogative that their beliefs are wrong.

Quote:
and there are other practical benefits too, like stem cell research, organ transplants (imagine having a copy of "you" minus the brain, providing you with spare organs for the rest of your life, possibly extending your life expectancy by several decades).


A spare "you" with no brain but fully formed organs waiting for harvest. How would a human body develop without a brain? You see this type of "thinking" alot from the gung ho genetic-engineering enthusiasts. Let's join reality and imagine that spare organs are grown in a lab, independent of a body. Now we've got a society where taking care of your health isn't even a consideration. Why should it be when we can just fuck out all of our internal organs with toxins and a shit diet and hey, fuck it, we can just grow new ones! At this point, we won't even need to appreciate the now outdated fragility of life.

Quote:
or maybe parents who lose their children at an early age might want to "revive" them.



"To what base uses we may return, Horatio! Why may
not imagination trace the noble dust of Alexander,
till he find it stopping a bung-hole?"
Or why should our imaginations even be so compelled, we chasers of immortality. People die. People have dealt with it and will continue to until extinction. I can't think of a more absurd idea than resurrecting a dead child. Are we really that dead as a society to the importance of tragedy and misfortune? Does anyone really believe that we can or even should eliminate suffering. Have we decided that suffering is obsolete?

Quote:
...or maybe an unmarried old man wants to extend his genetic legacy by cloning himself? why should they be prevented?


Because the interests of the environment outweigh those of some selfish old man. If we eliminate human mortality, we will fuck up our species and the entire ecosystem could be impacted. Or worse, if genetic clones are introduced to the natural environment and begin reproducing, we may be unprepared for the possible consequences.
Quote:
the question isn't why we should clone, the question is why shouldn't we be able to clone? why? just because some people are uncomfortable with the moral and philosophical implications?



Those are considerations, however the potential consequences to the environment are number one.

Quote:
because it raises too many issues?



Main "issue": Would we really be better off if suffering was obsolete?

Quote:
...and for the record, I don't think we should be cloning until we have perfected it with animals and higher primates. everything I said above is assuming that we've worked out all the technical issues with human cloning (which will be done if research is allowed to continue).




Please define what you mean by "perfection" of cloning. I will assume "perfect" in this case to mean there will be no detrimental consequences to the physiology of the cloned individual or to the environment. For this condition to be met, long-term studies would have to be conducted to prove that somewhere along the line, the cloned animals and offspring of those animals didn't develop problems. I would propose that you could never have conclusive results. We're talking living creatures here that do their own thing: move to new environments, reproduce. My point of course is that you can't predict the long-term effects of this method of "reproduction".

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Viveka]
    #2301686 -

it sounds like you have largely emotional objections to cloning

The term "need" means nothing without first naming a goal. So what is the goal of genetic engineering? To prolong life? To eliminate disease?

to ease suffering. isn't this the goal of medical science?

Do we understand how genetic material will behave when it is replicated without being combined with other genetic material? We don't, therefore proceeding with it is incredibly irresponsible.

see my disclaimer

Please explain how cloning will convince those opposed to your perrogative that their beliefs are wrong.

it won't convince them. as I already said, you could always come up with a new novel argument to maintain your beliefs. that's how beliefs work. that's how they persist.

A spare "you" with no brain but fully formed organs waiting for harvest. How would a human body develop without a brain?

it's entirely possible. a brain stem is all that's required to maintain bodily functions (hearbeat, breathing etc.) and this is all speculative anyway. I thought this was obvious.

Why should it be when we can just fuck out all of our internal organs with toxins and a shit diet and hey, fuck it, we can just grow new ones! At this point, we won't even need to appreciate the now outdated fragility of life.

that's not the point... let me ask you. why do we have organ transplants? artificial hearts? pacemakers etc? do people feel free to fuck up their organs because these things exist? or do these things exist to ease suffering, when circumstances require them? I guess it's how you look at it...

I can't think of a more absurd idea than resurrecting a dead child

really? well that's your opinion. but what if people want to do this? should they not be able to because some people are creeped out by it?

Are we really that dead as a society to the importance of tragedy and misfortune?

what exactly do you mean by this? are you saying that tragedy and misfortune are good? it sounds like you're opposed to medical science in general, or anything that upsets "natural" suffering.

Does anyone really believe that we can or even should eliminate suffering. Have we decided that suffering is obsolete?

I never said anything about eliminating suffering. I have no illusions about cloning or genetic engineering. it's no silver bullet to end human suffering. but it does have a lot of potential to help those in need. it's too bad so many people are creeped out by it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Source]
    #2301808 -

you raise some interesting points, and I share many of your concerns.

A new "tree" has started parallel to, or overlapping, the tree of life. This tree (arguably) began with language and has evolved into culture and eventually technology. Technology is not a further branch of the tree of life, it's a new branch on the "tree of knowledge". Should the new tree consume the old?

culture, language, technology. it sounds like you're talking about memes. yes it's a new tree growing parellel to and intertwining with the genetic tree. but I disagree that there is a fundamental conflict between the two. and if you think about it, can't technology be considered a product of human DNA?

Since we unlocked the power of the atom our world has possibly never been in more danger than it is right now. We've had over half a century to learn to responsibly deal with this force and have failed. Nuclear weapons and technological know-how are proliferating across the globe, falling into more and more hands and now it's just a matter of time. Are we really ready to unleash another, more powerful force?

I sympathize with you and I have the same concerns, but it's not about being ready for it. when the science is ready, progress WILL be made, whether we like it or not. the genie is out of the bottle. it's been out for some time, and we can only do our best to control it.

The real question isn't whether or not we are responsible enough to weild this power, the real question is: why do we want to? Is it really going to usher in an age where there are no wants? Is it going to finally alleviate our desperate search for peace inside and outside ourselves? Or is it just another phantasm leading us further from the truth that we can only find peace when we accept life on its own terms?

I don't know, and I don't think it cares about our concerns. and I don't really buy this idea of going away from the truth, or approaching truth or anything like that. I think truth is what is. when cloning becomes a reality, wouldn't THAT be life on it's own terms? can we accept that? or will there always be resistance?

What is this "progress" that everyone is always talking about? What are we progressing towards? What is the price of this progress? What are we moving away from? Have we really taken stock of where we are now, RIGHT NOW!?

progress is growth, evolution, transcendence. whatever you want to call it, it's an immutable force that cares not for our concerns about where it's all headed. it will unleash all kinds of demons on the world, and raise many uncomfortable questions that people don't want to deal with. the responses in this thread is proof of that. but it also has a lot of potential - limitless potential for mankind. we'll never know until we go forward. so where is it all headed? I don't know. it might lead to our destruction. maybe it's meant to be. all I know is, we can't be stagnant as a species. I'd rather we destroy ourselves while boldly striding out into the unknown rather than reverting inward or staying by the fire for fear of the darkness.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2304219 -

a problem i see with cloning is that the technique isn't perfect. a clone is not the same as a normal baby. you're bringing a new consciousness into being and you're giving them a body only as good as our cloning technology. clones feel the effects of old age much faster than normal people. i think they have a higher chance of being deformed, or dying very young, than a normal person.

as an extreme example of what i mean, let's say that we found a way to grow a concious human brain in a special growth chamber. we shouldn't do it of course, because it's cruel to bestow conciousness on a brain sitting in a jar.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2304721 -

I think the biggest problem with cloning as of now would be that it would basically accelerate overpopulation.

I feel as soon as we start getting of of this planet, cloning should be totally supported as long as we're not cloning people without being able to care for them and raise them like "natural" people or whatever..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR
( 1 2 all )		 ShroomismM 3,457 28 11/30/03 08:37 AM
by infidelGOD
* first human cloned
( 1 2 all )		 quemo 2,568 24 12/28/02 08:18 PM
by ribbit
* In Defense of Cloning
( 1 2 3 all )		 Adamist 3,089 49 12/30/02 11:59 AM
by silversoul7
* philosophers are instruments of the devil
( 1 2 3 all )		 Positronius 6,768 43 03/04/09 07:15 AM
by Noteworthy
* Alien/Human Relations, Version 2
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 ShroomismM 15,866 103 02/08/04 08:12 PM
by Shroomism
* The "Evils" of cloning
( 1 2 all )		 chemkid 2,199 30 01/10/03 09:00 PM
by Spiffy
* Stanford announces plans to clone human embryos
( 1 2 all )		 GoBlue! 2,778 34 12/12/02 01:24 PM
by raytrace
* Did Ancient philosophers trip out?
( 1 2 all )		 Mithril 4,493 29 03/01/03 05:48 AM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
6,266 topic views. 1 members, 21 guests and 18 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.023 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.