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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Positronius]
    #2231799 - 01/09/04 05:22 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

*sigh* ok here we go from the top

"Now, dispute this analysis:
-marx = USSR.
whats that you cant dispute it? what a fucking surprise. "

ok remember what i said about not answering your own questions? its not very good discussion ediquette. Once again, i can, and do dispute it. remember how i took the time to type in that long thign about how jesus doesnt equal genocide? the reason was simple: there is another factor in the equation that is being left out. here ill put it in your terms

jesus=genocide wait thats not right, because jesus didnt commit the genocide, hitler did, even if he claimed to do it in gods name or jesus name. so a better equation would be

jesus+hitler=genocide. that is a little more correct. So in reality, if we were to analyze this equation, one wopuld think we might find that the key factor in causing the genocide was not jesus or his teachings, but the twisted mind of a genocidal madman, mainly hitler, who WAS UNABLE TO GRASP jesus true message, and simply employed jesus name for propagandha reasons.

Even this leaves out thousands upon thousands of other important factors that would help a better understanding of violence, crusades etc. And this is why, once again, i object to this pseudo-methematical crap.

Now about

karl marx=ussr. i assume you view the ussr as a negative thing, so what your saying is

philosopher=negative impact

now why do we think the ussr was so bad? because numerous murders occured. The secret police terrorized civilians. Government corruption run rampant. Mass control of wealth by a privelaged few.
Starvation. so yes the ussr was very bad. But is marx really to blame for this? marx , in my understanding, believed in a common wealth. He believed in equality for all, and the greatest good for the greatest possible amount of people. read the bad things i just said about the ussr. Do you think any of those things can really be said to be the doing of karl marx?

ONCE AGAIN i say, karl marx had a vision. That vision was taken as a foundation for a society. Then human nature intervenes, greed, violence, corruption. THe ideals of karl marx very rapidly cease to have anything to do with the ussr. Stalin and karl marx were very diffrent people. The atrocities were commited by government officials and people working for there own corrupt interests. ONCE AGAIN i say your llittle formula leaves out far to many variables. You cant blame the failing of the society on the philosopher. there failure is to keep to the standards they originally based the society on, it is succumbing to human nature. ONCE AGAIN i say the philosophers were exceptions to the rule, they were wiser and smarter and more virtuous than other people.

(ok here some interjection is needed. when i say this i am talking about people who in my oppinion put forth philosophies with the intention of better understanding the world, bettering the world or finding a new and better structure for society. Now as i said before a philosopher is just a thinker, there ideas are all entirely diffrent. Someone may be a philosopher and philosophize utter evil , like hitler. Machiavelli was a philosopher. Now if someone bases there lives around a person who teaches ideas of materialism, self satisfaction, violence or hate, the result will be negativity. Hence, when a nation followed hitler, the result was suffering. But when a person basis his life on a philosopher who teaches love, unity, brotherhood, charity etc, like jesus, the result will be good.)

I say that either karl marx or john locke would have been fantastic world leaders. If them and there ideals truly controlled the usa or the ussr, the world might be as great as they envisioned. but the philosophers die, and the ideas they left behind are taken up by various minds and used for various intrests, misunterpreted and ignored at will. And ONCE AGAIN i say that the philosophers are not to be blamed for the crimes of those who came after.

"hitler did read nietzsche, and then he implemented his interpretation of nietzsche's philosophies into the real world. " neitzsches philosophy may have influenced hitler, but in the end hitlers philosophy was hitler's alone. And to blame hitlers behaviour on nietchze is frankly bizarre. Blame the crusades on the crusaders, not on jesus. Blame hitler on hitler, not nietzche, blame the Failure of the ussr on the leaders of the ussr, not on marx. Blame The USA on george bush and the government, and even the voting public, BUT DONT BLAME JOHN LOCKE!

"oh, youve studied "Laozi"? could you please tell me what Laozi said about the common man and knowledge? I believe it was something along lines of..."keep them ignorant to all knowledge". Maybe my edition of Laozi had alot of typoes. "

Ok this is my fault for bad spelling , i am refering to Lao Tzu, the author of the Tao Te Ching, an incredible piece of philosophy that in my understanding speaks of gentleness, peace and ahrmony with the enviroment around us.



"really? nietzsche preached compassion? interesting" well thats open to interpretation. The only work of neitchzes i have finished reading is the Twilight of the idols, in which he discuss the implications of excepting a universe without god. He says that in the abscence of divine beings, we must find divinity in our emotions, our feeling and the world of the senses. He says that love is a triumph over religions failings. I see this as preching compassion.

"confucius, now thats a great philosophy eh? well, all my Korean friends wish he had never lived because his philosophy has fucked up their society so badly, but....I guess you know more about how his philosophies have been used in real life, eh? "

confucius taught things like etiquette, civility , modesty. His idea weas to teach a proper way to live with fellow humans. How his teachings are used in real life is ONCE AGAIN blaming the philosopher for the govenment or korea. I cant keep rephrasing this.

"pharmakos: "'philosophers are insturments of the devil"

-um........duh? "
What the hell is going on here? im quoting the title of your thread. Im disagreeing with it. Philosophers are human. THey can be insturments of "god" (good) or the devil "evil" usually they are insturments of good, but later other humans (also philosophers in a way) cause evil in there names.

"edit: ahhh shizpow you bastard! " you took the time to edit that in?

im going for chinese

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2231826 - 01/09/04 05:34 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jesus=genocide wait thats not right, because jesus didnt commit the genocide, hitler did, even if he claimed to do it in gods name or jesus name. so a better equation would be



REALITY CHECK: Hitler was NOT a Christian. Didn't even claim to be. He called Christianity "the worst trick the Jews ever played on mankind," or something like that.

If you wanna check out some of the evils done in the name of Christianity, I suggest looking at the crusades, the Inquisition, or abortion clinic bombings.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: silversoul7]
    #2232309 - 01/09/04 09:25 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

he didnt? well thats undoubtedly my bad then. I was under the impression that he did claim to be. Nevertheless substitute hitlers genocide for any of the things you mentioned and the point remains the same.

"an extremely basic understanding is basically just saying you dont really know a hell of alot about what your talking about, and thats exactly the sense i get" looked over my post after writing it and realised this sounds pretty harsh. Sorry


Edited by PHARMAKOS (01/09/04 09:37 PM)

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Positronius]
    #2232545 - 01/09/04 11:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"The intent of the philosopher is irrelevant, what is relevant is how his/her philosophy is interpreted and actualized."

So is is your position that you're not only responsible for what you do, but also for all the other sods in the world who intentionally misrepresent what you have said for their own personal gain?

I give the example of Nietzsche. Anti-semite? Hardly, in fact he had a good bit of respect for them, and absolutely hated the anti-semitic movement. His sister married an anti-semite, and he had quite a few harsh words about that. Now, is it HIS fault that they took his words, out of context, to support their own agenda? How could he control that? I'll answer it for you. Not possible. You can't control the mistakes of others, be they accidental mistakes or intentional.
BTW
"You're forgetting about Nietzsche...he preached power and intelligence."

Yes, power over yourself and intelligence. He didn't advocate killing others, brutalizing them, or conquering foreign people because they were 'lesser'. That is, again, others stealing words for their own personal, selfish ends.

"really? nietzsche preached compassion? interesting. I don't count adolf hitler, but hitler did read nietzsche, and then he implemented his interpretation of nietzsche's philosophies into the real world. "

Have you ever.. actually.. READ Nietzsche?..
Anyway, HOW can you fault him when he SAID that the anti-semites were misusing his works? He told the world that they were wrong, that the entire German-power-superiourity thing was a horrible misinterpretation made by shallow minds. What should he have done, killed them all simply because they were misquoting him and had a totally incorrect interpretation of what he wrote?

"then dispute it! tell me how my equation of marx = USSR does not work."

Because Marx does not equal the USSR. Marx -> USSR. Marx led to the USSR as we know it, only because the USSR called itself a communism. It actually was a fascist state. In which case. Mussolini = USSR. in your terms. though, it actually would be closer to Mussolini -> USSR.

I win.

Not to even mention that without Stalin rising to power, the USSR would have been a very, very different place. Had Lenin remained in power, or had Trotsky taken his place as Lenin would have preferred, the USSR.. would have been a very, very different place. Yet Marx was the one responsible for every atrocity committed in the name of communism? Silly me... I thought the people actually committing the atrocities would be at fault, both for the atrocities themselves and for falsely hiding them behind the ideas of others who never would have approved of what was happening.

You cannot fault those who have ideas with the misuse of those ideas. Does Mohammad = Al Queda? Does Jesus = Crusades, Inquisition, the Salem fucking Witch Trials?

That's like saying that Guetenburg is responsible for white supremecy literature. He made the printing press, didn't he? So isn't it his fault that someone used it for something bad?


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OfflineShizpow
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2232574 - 01/10/04 12:08 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"Yes, power over yourself and intelligence. He didn't advocate killing others, brutalizing them, or conquering foreign people because they were 'lesser'. That is, again, others stealing words for their own personal, selfish ends."

I never said he advocated killing anyone, or conquering and brutalizing for that matter. He did have an amazing, beautiful hatred for christians however, specifically because of the weakness he saw in their religion. Nietzsche was very adament about the fact that in his view all people were not equal. I simply offered him up as the first and most blindingly obvious example of a philosopher who didn't conform to the soft and cudly ideals that were attributed to all philosophers in a blanket statement earlier. Nietzsche could give a fuck about tolerance.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Shizpow]
    #2233014 - 01/10/04 10:10 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

THANK you mushMONKEY! thank you. this is what i have been trying to say. (did i fail?) you simply cannot use stupid one step equations as evidence that philosophers are insturments of the devil! you said it well anyways so thanks
put the blame where it belongs

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Shizpow]
    #2233092 - 01/10/04 11:22 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"Nietzsche was very adament about the fact that in his view all people were not equal."

And they are obviously not equal, right? People are different and unequal. And he only hated Christianity because of the sad state of affairs it fell into -- blind acceptance of dogma and practices and morals.

And if I went out and killed someone because they blindly believed whatever they believe, it wouldn't be Nietzsche's fault, it would be mine. Both their murder would be my fault.. AND the horrible misunderstanding of what was in reality a very good and positive belief of Nietzsche's. It wouldn't be his fault I was an idiot who either couldn't understand what he was saying, or that I purposefully misunderstood what he was saying simply to conform to what I WANTED it to say. It'd be my fault.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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OfflinePositronius
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2233216 - 01/10/04 12:58 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

pharmakos: Ok this is my fault for bad spelling , i am refering to Lao Tzu, the author of the Tao Te Ching, an incredible piece of philosophy that in my understanding speaks of gentleness, peace and ahrmony with the enviroment around us.

--yes, I was also reffering to Laozi (thats the new, more correct rendering). Read it again, Laozi says that people should be kept ignorant from philosophy. And I believe Daoism in general supports the idea that the more you describe the Dao (ie - philosophy) the further you get away from it.

mushmonkey : "So is is your position that you're not only responsible for what you do, but also for all the other sods in the world who intentionally misrepresent what you have said for their own personal gain?

----let me clarify. Ive said nothing about responsibility. All of these people that have been cited, hitler, stalin, have all completely bastardized the philosophy they adopted. But the fact remains that the philosophy INSPIRED them to do what they did. Thee USSR would not have existed without Marx. That is not to say the USSR is an example of marxian philosophy, but the two do have a causal relationship, that cannot be denied.

mushmonkey: "USSR. Marx led to the USSR as we know it, only because the USSR called itself a communism. It actually was a fascist state. In which case. Mussolini = USSR. in your terms. though, it actually would be closer to Mussolini -> USSR.

I win."

that doesnt even make any sense. Mussolini = USSR??? what the fuck are you talking about, seriously, you cant deny that the communist manifesto is the direct cause of totalitarian communism, dont even try to, because you're just going to make yourself look silly.

pharmakos: "you simply cannot use stupid one step equations as evidence that philosophers are insturments of the devil"

okay....that was sarcasm, and in the vein of sclorch's sex and mushrooms thread - a sly marketing scheme. :blush:


--------------------
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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Positronius]
    #2233463 - 01/10/04 03:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Daoism does say that the more you descripe the tao the farther away you get from it. In fact the very first page of the tao te ching says 'the tao that can be described is not the unchanging tao"
so we agree on that. My question is what does that have to do with this discussion? also, my claim was that the writings of lao tzu do indeed teach living in harmony with the enviroment and each other, which i believe, if followed, would have a positive impact on the world. As for his belief that people should be kept ignorant of philosophy, again what does that have to do with this thread? basically your saying his philosophy was that people should not know philosophy. Which is self defeating, for one thing. Now if you believe as you have said that philosophy causes negative things, than you must agree that following lao tzus advice would be a good thing, having a positive impact. But that advice was in its self philosophy, and if no one knew it... etc. My quesstion is what relevance do you see that one page of the tao te ching to have on the thread as a hole?

Next: "Ive said nothing about responsibility" now wait a second. Your original post said "have philosophers ever had a positive impact? theyve definetly had a negative impact" now if they had a negative impact that clearly implies they were RESPONSIBLE for a negative event of some kind. The whole thread has revolved around this. If you arent saying anything about responsibilty (the responsibilty of philosophers for causing negative impact) than what exactly have you been saying?

"that doesnt even make any sense. Mussolini = USSR??? what the fuck are you talking about, seriously, you cant deny that the communist manifesto is the direct cause of totalitarian communism, dont even try to, because you're just going to make yourself look silly.
"

jesus christ. When we think ussr, we think of bad things like murders and genocides and brutal police control. mushmonkey is saying , like me , that these things (which make up the ussr as it is known) were not caused by karl marx, they were caused by mussolini. Hence mussolini=ussr. You said yourself that the ussr was not an example of marxist philosophy, and yet you still claim that marx, by his philosophy, in some way created this horrible era in human history. The entire thread up tell now has been us disagreeing with you, as far as i can tell.

AND NOW WHAT REALLY, REALLY PISSES ME OFF ABOUT YOU< POSITRONIUS, is this "seriously, you cant deny that the communist manifesto is the direct cause of totalitarian communism, dont even try to, because you're just going to make yourself look silly."

so essentially you start a thread by posting your oppinion. Then, consistently throughtout the thread you say things like 'can you contest this? no, what a fucking surprise!" the point of a debate is to discuss with other people you jackass, so stop telling people what they can and cannot disagree with, or else go and debate with yourself in your room and stop making me angry!

"dont even try to youll only make yourself look silly" reality check buddy me and mushmonkey have both taken considerable amounts of time to deny that the communist philisophy is the DIRECT cause of totalitarian communism, and in my oppinion it is you who is looking silly.

and finally

ME: "you simply cannot use stupid one step equations as evidence that philosophers are insturments of the devil"

YOU: okay....that was sarcasm, and in the vein of sclorch's sex and mushrooms thread - a sly marketing scheme

lol yes very sly it was all a clever trick eh? so you post a thread "philosophers are insturments of the devil" you say that philosophers have opnly caused bad things. To support this oppinion you post arguments of staggering genius (or stupid one step equations) like karl marx=ussr. then you say that this cannot be contested. Multiple people contest this. THen you say it was all sarcasm. Sarcasm? so you dont actually believe what you said? you were being sarcastic? so what are you wasting my time for?

now im rapidly losing my faith in A. the value of continuing this discusssion with you
B. your discussion ability and etiquette
C. the ability of any amount of logic or debate to sway your oppinion
which is fine but when you keep coming out with the same non-responses (im right. if you disagree youll look silly) it gets very boring

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OfflinePositronius
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2233541 - 01/10/04 04:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

pharmakos : "As for his belief that people should be kept ignorant of philosophy, again what does that have to do with this thread? basically your saying his philosophy was that people should not know philosophy. Which is self defeating,"

well, let me tell you Laozi's relevance to this thread. Laozi said that people shouldnt be exposed to philosophy because it will only have negative effects on their minds. In this thread, I was trying to promote a dialouge regarding the negative and positive effects of philosophy. Do you see the connection????? its pretty obvious.

pharmakos: "that these things (which make up the ussr as it is known) were not caused by karl marx, they were caused by mussolini"

hmmm, okay, can you explain to me how Mussoloni caused the formation of the USSR? I can explain to you how Marx is responsible, so you explain yourself first and then I'll post my explanation. Then we will compare the two and see which one has a basis in ACTUAL history.

pharmakos :"You said yourself that the ussr was not an example of marxist philosophy, and yet you still claim that marx, by his philosophy, in some way created this horrible era in human history

um....yes? philosophies cannot magically turn into hammers and build societies, they need people to interpret them and then put them into place with actions.

pharmakos: "Multiple people contest this. THen you say it was all sarcasm. Sarcasm? so you dont actually believe what you said? you were being sarcastic? so what are you wasting my time for?"

I never said marx=ussr was sarcasm, I said "philosophers are instruments of the devil" was sarcasm. And no, sorry, no one has yet to post a convincing argument that marx isnt directly connected to communist russia.

I think it is you that is wasting your own time dear sir, do not over-estimate my power over your mind.


--------------------
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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Positronius]
    #2233570 - 01/10/04 04:47 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

about lao-tzu: lao-tzu said people should not be exposed to philosophy. ok. how would anyone know that if they didnt read his works, the works of a philosopher , hence exposing themselves to his philosophy? see the dilemma? if you say that philosophy has only negative effects on the mind thats fine, but even that is a philosophy and hence can only have a negative effect on your mind. This is why i think this whole thread is kind of strange because essentially you are saying every idea is negative, or that philosophy can only cause negative effects (the ideas of the philosophers, who are simply people with ideas) and by that logic the world would be a more 'positive' place if no one was a philosopher (if no one had any ideas) and essentially if every human were turned into for example, a cotton swab. Enviromentally speaking i cant argue with this, but i dont think thats the point.

"And no, sorry, no one has yet to post a convincing argument that marx isnt directly connected to communist russia. " thats true. I admit it. i fold. MARX WAS CONNECTED, DIRECTlY, to communist russia. if that was what this thread was about, then the discussion would be over. But your post said philosophers have only had a negative impact on the world. As evidence of that you used the example of the ussr being connected to karl marx. However to reconcile these two statements (that philosophy is always negative in effect and that karl marx was responsible for the USSR) you must prove that the part of the ussr that karl marx was responsible for was in fact the negative part (murders, genocides, police brutality)

the argument here has been that karl marx was more accuratly responsible for the good parts of what the ussr was based on (equality, common wealth etc) and that the negative parts were not caused by karl marx but by people like mousallini, who did not in fact adhere to karl marx's philosophy. THerefore, although karl marx does have a causal relationship to the ussr (as you have said) and even though he is directly connected to the ussr (as you have said) he is not the one responsible for the bad things that happend in the ussr.

This is what (i think) chodamonkey meant when he said "so you believe you must not only be responsible for yourself but for every violent sod who comes after and mutilates and misinterprets your philosophy ?" (paraphrased)

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2233576 - 01/10/04 04:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

all this discussion has left the original topic of your post a bit confused, so i went back and read your original post. You asked :
"they have definitly had negative impact, and have also been able to correct the negative impact created by other philosophers, but have they ever had any purely positive impact? "

now i would ask , aside from all this talk about the ussr, if "correcting the negative impact created by other philosophers" is not in fact "a purely positive impact"?

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2233616 - 01/10/04 05:21 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

a final thought here, in response to your original question "have philosophers ever had a positive impact" i would offer the following example. A man, in his childhood, was beaten by his parents and grew up lacking a sense of love. In return he became violent towards others, antisocial and alcoholic. One day he was at a hotel and found a gideons bible. With nothing else to do he opend it to a random page in the new testament and began reading the philosophy of jesus christ. The man found hope and joy in this philosophy. Later that night he sat down and prayed fervrently and with all his heart to god in heaven that god would enter his heart and change his wicked ways. People who knew the man noted a drastic change in his self-esteem and also the way he treated others. The mans life, due to his exposure to the philosophy of jesus christ, was changed in a very positive way.
Now this example was not based on anyone specific, however it has happend in this exact way or many very similar ways a million plus times. Now does this answer your question of "has philosophy EVER had a purely positive impact" ?

If you posted your original question with the honest intention of finding an answer, then id say this thread can stop right now. If you are determined to argue, appear 'right' in your original oppinion and avoid the rebuttals that have in my oppinion cleared up your initial question a hundred times over, then i guess feel free to continue as long as you like

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2233617 - 01/10/04 05:21 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

a final thought here, in response to your original question "have philosophers ever had a positive impact" i would offer the following example. A man, in his childhood, was beaten by his parents and grew up lacking a sense of love. In return he became violent towards others, antisocial and alcoholic. One day he was at a hotel and found a gideons bible. With nothing else to do he opend it to a random page in the new testament and began reading the philosophy of jesus christ. The man found hope and joy in this philosophy. Later that night he sat down and prayed fervrently and with all his heart to god in heaven that god would enter his heart and change his wicked ways. People who knew the man noted a drastic change in his self-esteem and also the way he treated others. The mans life, due to his exposure to the philosophy of jesus christ, was changed in a very positive way.
Now this example was not based on anyone specific, however it has happend in this exact way or many very similar ways a million plus times. Now does this answer your question of "has philosophy EVER had a purely positive impact" ?

If you posted your original question with the honest intention of finding an answer, then id say this thread can stop right now. If you are determined to argue, appear 'right' in your original oppinion and avoid the rebuttals that have in my oppinion cleared up your initial question a hundred times over, then i guess feel free to continue as long as you like

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2233820 - 01/10/04 07:31 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Awesome example Pharm.

Philosophers have ever bit as much of a chance of people using their teachings for a positive purpose as a negative. However, positive changes are often small, personal changes, and it's the misinterpretations that are tied to the giant, negative changes.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2234013 - 01/10/04 10:44 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

so then should a philosophy be judged on a few positive cases, or as a whole?

(if one was inclined to judge a philosophy)

has christianity benefited human beings positively or negatively overall?

I'm sure the most insidious philosophy could result in positive effects in an individual.

White supremacy for example. A young confused white man feels sad, pathetic and lonely because he cant connect with the world around him. One day while sitting in a motel, preparing to cut his wrists, he comes across some hate literature and consequently comes to the conclusion that his problems are related to race, and that he is a member of the master-race, thusly boosting his self-esteem and inspiring him to live a full life.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Positronius]
    #2234183 - 01/11/04 12:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"White supremacy for example. A young confused white man feels sad, pathetic and lonely because he cant connect with the world around him. One day while sitting in a motel, preparing to cut his wrists, he comes across some hate literature and consequently comes to the conclusion that his problems are related to race, and that he is a member of the master-race, thusly boosting his self-esteem and inspiring him to live a full life. "

That's a only a personally positive effect, and the fact that it would result in a better life is very questionable anyway. His way of living would undoubtably involve a great deal of negative actions towards anyone not white. That's negative.

What I meant by a positive effect on an individual level was a philosophy hitting home with someone and them growing from the experience.

People are going to be people no matter what anyone else has said. If there's no Marx to influence them maybe it'll just be Larry from next door, who once said "Fuck it dude, don't bother trying, they're out to get you". And in that light, philosophers are a good thing -- if someone's going to try and model their beliefs off another's beliefs, it's worth it to at least try and find a good starting place.

Really philosophers are just people who say obvious things in clever ways. No philosophy is hard to understand, it's merely the way it is presented that is hard to understand -- and really it's that difficulty that makes it useful. Read what's said, what's unsaid, what's hinted at and what's alluded to, what's serious and what's jest, and once you finally figure out the ideas that are being expressed... it's fairly clear and simple. It's just not too useful to go at it any other way, and taking a single statement from a philosopher at face value rarely lends any insight into what they are trying to express.. and very often, that is what is done in cases such as the anti-semetic movement Hitler adopted, or the communist ideas the USSR adopted. They chose singular statements that seemed to support them, and chose to accept them as the only part of the philosophies that mattered, when it's really the whole idea you have to see to understand.

Also why christianity is so annoyingly crazy. people latch on to a few of their favorite verses that seem to support their own, pre-existing beliefs, and believe that those few snippets are the only real important part of the bible, while it's really the whole thing that's important -- there's a singular message behind it (well, old/new testament might make two), and that one, single universal message is actually the only part that's important. Everything else is just a step along the way to understanding that single message.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Positronius]
    #2234401 - 01/11/04 05:11 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I definitely see what you are saying, Positronius. Like you said, any philsophy could bring forth positive personal change, but on a large scale, there really hasn't been a lot of philsophy that has had positive, overall effects.. I mean, manifest destiny really got the United States a position as THE super power, but there are a whole hell of a lot of negative ramifications from that... the fact that natural resources aren't unlimited, and that all of this land isn't just for us...

Anyways, philosophy is still going to come and it definitely should.. but people are going to fuck up and do shitty things with it, because they don't fully understand it or they see how they could use it as a tool...

There is a positive and a negative to everything, and we all need to keep this in mind at all times...
Peace.


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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Positronius]
    #2234494 - 01/11/04 07:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"you cant deny that the communist manifesto is the direct cause of totalitarian communism, dont even try to, because you're just going to make yourself look silly."

That being said, are you educated enough to know that we dont practice real capitalism anymore???

Anyway, philsophy isnt a problem its a PROCESS, I have been reading philsophy books for months now(I already have read them before, but these last couple months I have read MUCH MORE), and I LOVE it!!!

I dont realize how much I liked Voltaire and Spinoza and Kant!!!!

All this talk of evil things having to do with philsophy is funny since many philsophers dont belive in evil(myself included), and EVIL philsophy has been dont by nations and  political philsophers  , fascists like plato for example t started bad "THOUGHTS" long ago, but to say ,throw away philsophy as a whole, thats silly.

I am talking about is there a god, whats the purpose of man ETC, and you are talking about white redneck rascists, thats not REAL philsophy to me, even though those retards have a philsophy, they are ingoned to a large extent, as they should be. :smile:

I cant wait to read about william james, he's next in my book :thumbup:


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: philosophers are instruments of the devil [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2234886 - 01/11/04 02:35 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Psilo: That being said, are you educated enough to know that we dont practice real capitalism anymore???

by "real" capitalism do you mean laissez faire capitalism? if so, Canadians never practiced real capitalism, nor has anyone for that matter.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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