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Anonymous

Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: chunder]
    #2143921 - 11/29/03 10:10 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry Chunder. I know it rankles but the truth had to be told. The story was/is pure Christian allegory. And he wrote it for that reason.

If you don't believe it I suggest you do some research. This is a commonly known fact by those who are very familiar with his life.


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
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Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: ]
    #2144405 - 11/29/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Tolkein didn't like allegory at all. You should do some research, bud.


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: ]
    #2144564 - 11/29/03 04:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Mr. Mushrooms, I've done quite a bit of research on Tolkien and his methods for building a story structure and how he used symbolism and archetypes in his stories. You see, I'm going into the business of interactive story-telling myself, so I find his work extremely valuable in furthering my own skills in the area.

If you think that the LOTR is nothing but a straight allegory for the Christian mythos, then you lack some understanding of the process, context and actual parameters of Tolkien's life when he wrote the book.

I suggest you check out these books, they are very good starting points in researching the dynamic construction of Tolkien's worlds. The first book also contains lots of excellent info on the studies that Tolkien was involved in during his academic life and how those interests affected and paralleled his writing at the time.

Tolkien: A Biography

One Ring to Bind Them All: Tolkien's Mythology

Myth & Middle-Earth: Exploring the Medieval Legends Behind J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings

I hope you will read these books, they are all fantastic and are excellent springboards to learn about understanding how myths affect our stories, and how our stories reflect our culture. And hopefully after doing some research of your own you will find the "Christian allegory" to be quite insufficient as a complete model for understanding the meaning and structure which Tolkien so expertly and beautifully crafted into his Middle Earth. Peace!
 


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Anonymous

Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: chunder]
    #2144822 - 11/29/03 06:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well, you have done quite a bit of research but there is some further research you didn't do. You see, I know what I am talking about as well because I have read Tolkien's words about what his trilogy meant and was meant to mean.

I prefer to take the author's words over those books.

That is the reason I said what I did. Secularists have for some time now tried to pull the wool over people's eyes about Tolkien's real intent. The reason they do that is because of the hard-on they have for Christians.

The things you have come to believe are untrue but you came by them honestly as many people have. It just burns people no end to think that his Trilogy has anything to do with the Christian Faith. But unfortunately for them, it does.

Thanks for sharing those links.

Cheers,

MM


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Anonymous

Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2144832 - 11/29/03 06:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
shroomism, I noticed that myself when I was reading it. Of course pretty much *all* fantasy writing is highly influenced by celtic and pagan mythology.

From what I've read, Tolkien was quite a Luddite.
&#8220;The savage sound of the electric saw is never silent wherever trees are still found growing. Every tree has its enemy, few have an advocate. In all my works, I take the part of trees as against all their enemies.&#8221; -Tolkien

That quote offers some insight into what he was going for with the Ents. For quite a long time I've had a fantasy of ancient trees awakening then marching to smash the Pentagon, or the White House. Wouldn't that be cool? heheh.

*Tolkien never owned a television or a washing machine. He was a confirmed luddite, rejecting refrigerated food and cars. &#8220;How I wish the &#8216;infernal combustion&#8217; engine had never been invented,&#8221; he said. When asked about his life, he responded, &#8220;I am in fact a hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe and like good plain food&#8230; I go to bed late and get up late.&#8221; In an enlightening letter written to his son, Christopher, in 1943, Tolkien vented his frustration with government and the industrial age, &#8220;My political opinions lean more and more to anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs)&#8230; There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power stations.&#8221; It is this last statement and others like it that lead one to wonder if Tolkien would have approved of today&#8217;s &#8220;elves&#8221;&#8212;those of the Earth Liberation Front. It is a fact that Tolkien was deeply troubled by the impact of modern industry and technology on the world&#8217;s environment, especially &#8220;the lunatic destruction of the physical lands which Americans inhabit.&#8221;*

I got that quote from here http://www.earthfirstjournal.org/efj/feature.cfm?ID=159&issue=v22n6




This is exactly what I am talking about! Not only was Tolkien a confirmed Luddite but he was a dogmatic Christian Luddite for years. Read his statements. Does he sound like a man with an open mind?

Hardly.

He was stuck in the Dark Ages and Middle Earth.

It actually embarrasses some people.


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Offlineenotake2
Stop Bush's war
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: ]
    #2144867 - 11/29/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What's not open about that quote. From that quote it sounds to me like he questions society in a time when others didn't. "My political opinions lean more and more to anarchy" .... sounds pretty open minded to me. Though maybe it is a matter of political opinion here where we disagree - you think he should be embracing industrialisation and etc, whereas I think he is open minded to question those things. Sounds like the people in this thread have read different material about tolkein.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: ]
    #2144877 - 11/29/03 06:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Mr Mushrooms, you are ignoring the most important aspect about literary interpretation; if the author is dead, his percieved intention is irrelevant. Literature has more depth than simple a = b communication. Tolkein is dead, god is dead, and its up to us to pick up the peices and interpret whatever we want. Forget his personal life, stick to the text.

If the text doesnt stand up to this type of analysis, then it is worthless.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: ]
    #2144881 - 11/29/03 06:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

LOTR has a LOT to do with Christianity Mr.M! I never disagreed with that, but to make the claim that Tolkien limited his entire underlying story to the parameters of Christianity is silly.

Please show me where Tolkien states that he constructed the story as a purely Christian allegory.

Trust me, he spent 14 years working on this story, using resources derived from the mythos of Europe and Western Asia, including, but DEFINITELY not limited to Christianity.

Personally, it seems quite clear that this is the case. Even a cursory study of European mythology and folklore will reveal an ocean of inspiration from which Tolkien took his many creations, plot devices, languages and stories.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR [Re: ]
    #2146132 - 11/30/03 08:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I know it rankles but the truth had to be told. The story was/is pure Christian allegory. And he wrote it for that reason.

The truth? I don't know where you get your information (can you please share?), but the Lord of the Rings is most definitely NOT a Christian allegory. he did not mean it as an allegory of any kind, he plainly stated this in the foreward to the version of Rings that I read. in fact, Tolkien hated allegory.

some quotes from him:

"There is no 'symbolism' or conscious allegory in my story"

"Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees."


this from his last interview:

In his last interview in 1971, Tolkien plainly stated that he did not intend The Lord of the Rings as a Christian allegory and that Christ is not depicted in his fantasy novels. When asked about the efforts of the trilogy?s hero, Frodo, to struggle on and destroy the ring, Tolkien said, "But that seems I suppose more like an allegory of the human race. I?ve always been impressed that we?re here surviving because of the indomitable courage of quite small people against impossible odds: jungles, volcanoes, wild beasts... they struggle on, almost blindly in a way" (Interview by Dennis Gerrolt; it was first broadcast in January 1971 on BBC Radio 4 program "Now Read On?"). That doesn?t sound like the gospel to me. When Gerrolt asked Tolkien, "Is the book to be considered as an allegory?" the author replied, "No. I dislike allegory whenever I smell it."

http://logosresourcepages.org/rings.htm


and here's the foreward to the book:

http://www.mi.uib.no/~respl/tolkien/lotr-foreword.html

where he clearly says:
"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical"




Edited by infidelGOD (11/30/03 08:41 AM)


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