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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2299290 -

Fiend said:
Jesus christ man, I thought you were fucking joking until halfway through the thread.  :nonono:


I thought the same thing. I swear.




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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: d33p]
    #2299712 -

Also that serb who was assassinated with the ricin ball and the umbrella was really intresting.

That's exactly the one I was referring to! Gotta give them points for originality :smirk:

For anyone who hasn't heard about it:
The Soviets assassinated a Serb with ricin once. They took a ball-bearing used in the tip of ball-point pens and hollowed it out, also drilling several holes in the surface. Then they placed three grains of ricin into the ball and coated the whole thing in sugar. It was placed on the tip of a needle that was installed in the tip of an umbrella. Poor dude was walking down the street one day when someone behind him "slipped" and poked the back of his leg with their umbrella.

Three days later the guy was dead. They almost didn't figure it out until they noticed a small red mark on his leg and dug out the ball bearing!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: afoaf]
    #2300034 -

afoaf writes:

but, come to think of it, we were selling saddam a lot of WMD
around that time too...

Incorrect. The US sold no WMD to Iraq. The closest one can come to saying about that claim is that Hussein did apparently obtain his initial Anthrax cultures from American sources. As one frequent poster here has pointed out, a petri dish is not a WMD. Besides, anthrax is (or was at the time, at least) readibly available from any medical school and veterinary college on the planet.

The US sold him no sarin, no tabun, no VX, no mustard gas, no nuclear components, no conventional weapons systems.

You'd be taken more seriously if you'd do at least a modicum of fact-checking before posting your assertions. All this has been covered countless times in this forum alone.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2300329 -

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/119547.php

yeah we didn't help Saddam with anything, keep spinning.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2301404 -

Quote:
Incorrect. The US sold no WMD to Iraq.



No they just gave him millions of dollars to buy what he needed...


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2301607 -

It's worse than that Gazz, Reagan and Bush sold Saddam tons of arms along with materials to make WMD, craftily funneling them through half a dozen middle east countries so they could lie their way out of it when they were caught. As detailed in the book "Spiders Web" by Alan Friedman.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2301819 -

Yep and they created the market by giving him the money to buy from US companies!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2302587 -

TrueBrode writes:

yeah we didn't help Saddam with anything, keep spinning.

I repeat -- the US sold no WMDs to Iraq. The article you linked proves that.

If you take the time to actually read the article you linked, and understand what you read, you will realize that.

Others have posted laundry lists here of companies that sold stuff to Iraq that had possible uses in nuke and bio and chem weaponry development. The list included companies from over sixty countries, including several from that bastion of Socialist neutrality, Sweden. Virtually every country in the world whose technology level was post-1950s was on that list.

The point I am making -- and it appears to zinged right over the heads of a few people in this thread -- the US sold no NBC weapons to Iraq. As a matter of fact, when all of Iraq's weaponry is looked at, less than 1% of even their conventional weaponry originated in the US.

I mean, give me a break -- that link of yours is frothing at the mouth because a US company supplied a plant to make ethylene. Freakin' ethylene fa cryin' out loud! I realize not all the readers here are chemists, but I'm sure everyone has heard of polyethylene -- only the commonest plastic in the world. Or ethylene glycol -- the coolant used by every gasoline engine in the world.

And the list of cultures -- again, give me a break! None of that stuff is hard to find in any medical university anywhere. Hell, I could get at least half the ones they mention right here in my crappy little third world banana republic with a few phone calls! Some of them I can get from the veteranarian that deworms my freakin' cat once a year.

Do I believe that past US administrations handled relations with Iraq flawlessly? Hell no! They did a lot of things wrong that came back to bite them on the ass, and they should have known better.

But to claim the US sold them WMDs is pure unvarnished bullshit.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2302596 -

GazzBut writes:

No they just gave him millions of dollars to buy what he needed...

As did every country who ever bought a barrel of oil from Iraq. Seeing as how Hussein had direct control over the hundreds of billions of dollars of oil revenue pouring into Iraq, the one thing he didn't lack was the cash required to arm himself.

Surely as a European you aware that the percentage of Iraqi oil sold to US (or any destination in the Western hemisphere for that matter) is trivial compared to that sold to European and Asian nations.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2302640 -

Even if he had them it?s a piss poor excuse get our country involved in it.





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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Learyfan]
    #2302728 -

Many people hold that opinion. But that's not what I was discussing..

I'm not arguing for the seven hundredth time in this forum whether it was right or wrong to depose Hussein. All I did was to point out that afoaf's statement is incorrect.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2303126 -

Just sayin' is all.





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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


Edited by Learyfan (02/04/04 11:20 PM)

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2303857 -

Quote:
As did every country who ever bought a barrel of oil from Iraq.



No Pinky they gave him money for a barrel of oil. The US and the UK gave/loaned him money without condition knowing full well he would likely spend it on his military infrastructure. Did you read the report on Indymedia which shows that American companies sold the precursors for many chem/bio weapons to Iraq? Are you telling me that the companies who sold these precursors didnt realise he was going to use them to create WMD'S??? Your arguements just get weaker and weaker. Its actually quite amusing!

I think you might owe Afoaf an apology.


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Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (02/05/04 05:59 AM)

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2303858 -

Incidentally for somebody who is supposedly against the ever growing state you seem very keen to defend its actions.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2304223 -

I mean, give me a break -- that link of yours is frothing at the mouth because a US company supplied a plant to make ethylene. Freakin' ethylene fa cryin' out loud! I realize not all the readers here are chemists, but I'm sure everyone has heard of polyethylene -- only the commonest plastic in the world. Or ethylene glycol -- the coolant used by every gasoline engine in the world.

It was Ethylene oxide. Easily converted to thiodiglycol and used to make mustard gas.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2310861 -

GazzBut writes:

No Pinky they gave him money for a barrel of oil.

My point was that in any country where the oil industry is nationalized, each and every dollar from oil sales goes straight into government coffers, where the leader of the country gets to decide whether it gets spent on weapons or on hospitals. Please don't try to tell us the countries buying oil from Iraq were unaware of this reality.

The US and the UK gave/loaned him money without condition knowing full well he would likely spend it on his military infrastructure.

And France and Germany and Russia all loaned him substantially more than did the US. Surely you have been following the discussion on loan relief for Iraq. It can't have escaped your notice that the loans due to the US are smaller than to just about any other country -- this is why the Euros are squawking about forgiving loans -- "Sure, America, it's easy for you to say forgive the loans to Iraq. Iraq owes you almost nothing anyway!"

And -- as many, many people have pointed out in this forum -- foreign aid has a habit of being spent on things other than what it was ostensibly loaned for in the first place. The lender has no control over that. Once the money is in the hands of the borrower's government, good luck trying to enforce any loan conditions.

Did you read the report on Indymedia which shows that American companies sold the precursors for many chem/bio weapons to Iraq?

Obviously I did. Hence my comments re ethylene, for one.

Are you telling me that the companies who sold these precursors didnt realise he was going to use them to create WMD'S???

Sigh. If you go far enough down the chemical chain, anything can be described as a precursor for anything else. I seem to recall reading more than a few posts here from someone complaining bitterly that poor Hussein couldn't provide clean water to his people because he couldn't import chlorine, since it was a precursor for various chem weapons. Ignoring for the moment that of course he could and did in fact import chlorine, anyone with a basic knowledge of basic chemistry would laugh their heads off at that. Chlorine is an atomic element for heaven's sake. If you're gonna call chlorine a "precursor", than you might as well call phosphorus a precursor. You'd be a hell of a lot more accurate since organophosphates form the basis for many more nerve agents than does chlorine.

Surely you will remember the fuss near the beginning of the war when chemical plants were found and the initial reports were that they were possible WMD factories? It was later decided they had been used to make insecticides. The fact that many insecticides are chemically similar to many nerve agents -- and the fact that the same plant that makes one can readily make the other -- was derided as coincidence.

So it's okay to supply Iraq precursors if the Iraqis claim to be using them to make pesticides, but not if they use them to make Sarin or VX?

Your arguements just get weaker and weaker.

You would do well to actually read the articles you refer to, and to think a little bit about what you read before claiming anyone's arguments are weak.

Its actually quite amusing!

Not nearly as amusing as your lack of simple chemical knowledge.

I think you might owe Afoaf an apology.

When afoaf provides a link from an unimpeachable source showing the US sold Iraq WMDs I'll apologize. Even Indymedia doesn't claim they did. An ethylene factory is not WMD, nor is a brucellosis culture or an e. coli culture or even an anthrax culture.

Of course, France sold Hussein an entire nuke plant, but let's not talk about that for the moment. After all, France isn't the US.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2310879 -

GazzBut writes:

Incidentally for somebody who is supposedly against the ever growing state you seem very keen to defend its actions.

What state actions?

Private companies supplied perfectly legal stuff to a foreign customer. That has nothing to do with the US government.

I realize it may come as a surprise to a denizen of a Socialist country to realize there is such a thing as private industry on this side of the pond, but I assure you such is the case. They make their living selling stuff to people.

There are certain things the government forbids them to sell -- i.e. certain chemicals, certain computer technology, nuclear technology, and weapons technology. But -- surprise, surprise -- chlorine and ethylene are not on the restricted list. Nor are bacterial cultures.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2311115 -

Ignoring for the moment that of course he could and did in fact import chlorine

One commodity Iraq was banned from importing was chlorine, a chemical used for both chemical weapons and water sanitization. The Defense Department knew a shortage of chlorine would kill - and has kept the ban in place for the past decade. "Unless the water is purified with chlorine, epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid could occur," the brief noted.

http://www.mike-warren.com/links/projectcensored-top-ten-underreported-stories-from-last-year.html

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2311362 -

Remember Gazz, these are the same people who stated with the same blind confidence that Iraq had "tonnes of VX gas, advanced programmes to stabilise chemical and biological weapons" etc etc.

Their knowledge of Iraq clearly counts for very, very little.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2311476 -

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the US has more WMD than any other country.

Oh... but we are good and noble and defending the Earth right so it's ok for us to have them?  :rolleyes:

Yeah...let's think back... why does Iraq hate us so much? Hmm... could it possibly have anything to do with us funding, supplying, and encouraging wars between two countries, telling both sides we are on their team, and then pulling out to watch and reap the benefits?

America IS the evil empire. If I was an Iraqi I would want to kill us too. Shit, I'm a fucking american, and I want to kill us.


^^^ Patriotism


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