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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290582 -

So why didn't he just turn them all in before the invasion? If we were invading him based on the fact that he had WMD's, why didn't he just give them all up to save his regime? You're telling me that a guy that did everything possible to stay in luxery and power let it all go over keeping some WMD's. NO FUCKING WAY

Why is it that all his scientists and high ranking Bathists say he never had any- if they revealed anything that would help us, they would probably get significantly shorter sentences or receive some kind of bargain.

And there have already been instances when supposed "intelligence" has been proven wrong, hasty or flat out bogus. What does intelligence even mean anyway? What is the exact context of this "intelligence?"

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2290727 -

Yes intelligence could be wrong, like anything in life you can always make mistakes, but it wasn't only us who's intel said he had it, even French intel, German intel.. two coutries who were against the effort from the start said they were convinced he had it.. with that amount of intel and the UN all saying he had WMD there's no way in hell it all could of been wrong.

Saddam giving into his enimies would make him look weak to to the rest of the world and tarnish the reputation he wanted, and the way he wanted to go down in history as a great arab babalonian leader, giving up and admitting he lied about WMD's would ruin him, embaress his regime and destroy any credibility his supporters ever gave him. He was going to go down no matter what, he knew that, that's why Tarq Aziz stated after he was captured that Saddam did little to prevent invasion and overthrow, cuz he knew he was fucked no matter what... his whole plan was to try and make our efforts look bad by not coming up with WMD's, the reason the administration gave for going to war to begin with.

Either Syria or Iran has them, without a doubt, and we're fucked because we can't go in there and find them. Saddam was awesome when he planned this part of the war, i'll give him credit for that.. eveything else points to him as being an incompitent military leader, but the WMD plan was a good one for sure.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2290728 -



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Mp3 of the month: Things To Come - Come Alive


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2290738 -

Live and a hole and keep fighting with a chance of re-gaining power again someday if never caught, most definatly.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290771 -

His weapons of mass destruction have not been found. Why didn't he go to wherever they are?





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Mp3 of the month: Things To Come - Come Alive


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2290787 -

Because they didn't want the US against them and invading them, possibly declaring war against them for harboring their enimies... they didn't want Saddam staying there, but they gladly would of taken the weapons if he gave them to them. That in itself is a much more low profile task, take the weapons in trucks on a one time trip across the boarder, dump them there and let them sit... there ya go.

With bringing Saddam into the country and offering him refuge you are risking a hell of a lot more! You have to cover his idenity, hide him, make sure no one spills the truth or talks.. keep the secret.. you think that's easy? Syria didn't want him there but gladly would of taken his weapons for free if he offered. Come on guys, it makes total sense, anyone with an open mind can't possibly rule this out or think it's not totally logical.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2290797 -

Hey Learyfan, I like your quote, "think for yourself and question authority." I agree with that.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290891 -

Quote:

Snobrdr311 said:
Hey Learyfan, I like your quote, "think for yourself and question authority."  I agree with that.



Thanks. That's actually Timothy Leary's though.

:cool:


www.spiritualscience.org/leary.gif">


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Mp3 of the month: Things To Come - Come Alive


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290972 -

Chemical and Bio weapons do a huge amount of damage over a vast area, and are considered weapons of mass destruction, yes

Actually they arn't very effective at all and most experts struggle to call them WMD.

First, developing materials in pure enough forms to allow for effective dissemination is extraordinarily complex, and second, distributing the materials in a wide enough area to effect large numbers of people remains dauntingly difficult. In more than a dozen attempts to release botulism and anthrax aum failed to kill anyone at all. Eventually, the cult managed to release the chemical agent sarin on the Tokyo underground and killed 12 people, not the tens of thousands they were hoping to kill.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1608377.stm

Since the media has decided to scare everyone with predictions of chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf, I have decided to write a paper to help keep things in their proper perspective. I am a retired military weapons, munitions, and training expert.

Lesson number one: In the mid 1990s there were a series of nerve gas attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations. Given perfect conditions for an attack, less than 10% of the people there were injured (the injured were better in a few hours) and only one percent of the injured died. 60 Minutes once had a fellow telling us that one drop of nerve gas could kill a thousand people. What he didn't tell us is that the thousand dead people per drop was theoretical. Drill Sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff is to keep the recruits awake in class (I know this because I was a Drill Sergeant too). Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff, it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!)! These weapons are about terror. If you remain calm, you probably will not die. This is far less scary than the media and their "experts," make it sound.

Chemical weapons are categorized as Nerve, Blood, Blister, and Incapacitating agents. Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians, they are not weapons of mass destruction. They are "Area Denial Weapons" and terror weapons that don't destroy anything. When you leave the area you almost always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk. Soldiers may have to stay put; that's why they need all that spiffy gear.

Nuclear bombs. These are the only weapons of mass destruction on earth.


http://www.conservativetruth.org/attack/therealdeal.shtml

Remember it wasn't only US intelligence that said Saddam still had WMD left

Not quite, if you read most of the intelligence carefully there is very little in the way of direct proof - mostly it's guesswork and supposition that Bush and the neocons talked up. That's why the UN wouldn't authorise military action and wanted the inspectors to have more time - the intelligence simply wasn't reliable enough to launch a pre-emptive war of aggression.

on top of that several Iraqi scientists recently have stated on record that Saddam sent WMD to Syria.

Do you have any reliable evidence of this? And if there are scientists talking about WMD why havn't they taken the americans to where they made the WMD?

That's just to much evidence

What evidence is this? Because David Kay has just spent months scouring Iraq and has concluded the WMD didn't exist.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2291297 -

Actually, Kay say's a lot of things.




Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief
By Con Coughlin
(Filed: 25/01/2004)


David Kay, the former head of the coalition's hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, yesterday claimed that part of Saddam Hussein's secret weapons programme was hidden in Syria.

In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Dr Kay, who last week resigned as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said that he had uncovered evidence that unspecified materials had been moved to Syria shortly before last year's war to overthrow Saddam.

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."
Rest of the article.




Kay: Bush Was Right to Attack Iraq

Critics of the Bush administration have seized on Iraq weapons hunter David Kay's pronouncement over the weekend that Baghdad didn't have any WMDs immediately before the U.S. attacked last March.

But Tuesday morning Kay gave President Bush a full-fledged endorsement on his decision to go to war.

In an interview with NBC's "Today Show," Kay told host Matt Lauer that the U.S. decision to attack was "absolutely prudent."

"In fact," said Kay, "I think at the end of the inspection process, we'll paint a picture of Iraq that was far more dangerous than even we thought it was before the war."

Kay described Iraq's government as "a system collapsing."

"It was a country that had the capability in weapons of mass destruction areas, and ... terrorists, like ants to honey, were going after it."

Meanwhile, Saddam Hussein "was putting more money into his nuclear program, he was pushing ahead his long-range missile program as hard as he could," Kay said.

Although Baghdad wasn't successful, Kay said Iraq "had the intent to acquire these weapons," adding that Saddam had "invested huge amounts of money" to do so.

The chief weapons hunter also debunked the notion that the White House pressured U.S. intelligence to exaggerate the Iraq threat.

"The tendency to say, well, it must have been pressure from the White House is absolutely wrong," he told "Today."
Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2291434 -

So Mommar Quadafi is cooperating with the U.S. why then? Does he look completely weak now? Nope, he is cooperating because he wants to stay in power, and he knows the U.S. masses are so brain dead they will buy any reason for invasion, so he is trying to look as peaceful as possible. Sorry, but a homicidal madman that was addicted to power and luxury throwing it all away over martyrdom is simply your opinion of his psychology which means does not mean anything.

I agree with you on one issue though. He knew the United States was going to invade his country no matter what, he even said it on many occasions, but that has nothing to do with what he did with his weapons. You make all these claims that sound like they came right out of David Frum's or Karl Rove's mouths. There has been no evidence that he gave any WMD's to anybody, so you're still not saying anything based on any proof.

And I'll ask yet again- what is the context of this intelligence? How can you say for sure he gave/sold all his weapons to Iran or Syria? Don't use White House war-mongering logic either for your answer. What intelligence do they have? Intelligence doesn't mean: "we think he has them." This is why the people in Great Britain dont buy the Hutton outcome, because the evidence speaks otherwise- that the intelligence report is based on doctored up fluff.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2296115 -

Rather than try to argue with someone who can't accept logical theroys as a possibility, i'll stick to what luvdemshrooms said as my responce, it's a decent one.. I could offer excellent logical insight, again.. but why? All you're going to do is find another way to argue with me, it's not worth the time.

I will look through google again though so I can find the non partisan based websties that offered sources of the international intel that said Saddam had WMD. There's many differnt nations, trust me.

I'll get back to that

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296879 -

Oh yeah? I think you will find 90% of the intel came from UK and US sources.

Perhaps you'd also be so kind as to offer your opinion on how the intel changed so dramaticaly in the space of a mere 12 months? In 2001 Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell both made statements that made it clear Iraq was no longer considered a threat, had been effectively contained by the use of sanctions and had no active weapons programs.
However by 2002 this had been completely replaced with the "Saddam is the biggest threat to world peace" hysteria that Bush and Blair used to whip up support for the war. Now it appears that the original 2001 intel was in fact correct. So how did this little period of stupidity manifest itself?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2297039 -

I will look through google again though so I can find the non partisan based websties that offered sources of the international intel that said Saddam had WMD. There's many differnt nations, trust me.

One intelligence source referred to this the other day as "the dangers of group-think". When the intelligence is so poor, vague and based mainly on intercepted communications and satellites rather than humans on the ground "group-think" can take over. Where one group blindly accepts the conclusion of another group.

In any case as Gazz points out everyone knew it was all bullshit years ago:

The truth is that the Blair government has known, almost from the day it came to office in 1997, that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were almost certainly destroyed following the 1991 Gulf War - just as Bush's weapons expert, David Kay, has now confirmed.

What else did Blair know?

In February last year, a transcript of a leaked United Nations debriefing of Iraqi general Hussein Kamel, revealed that both the US and British governments must have known that Saddam Hussein no longer had weapons of mass destruction. General Kamel was no ordinary defector; he was Bush and Blair's star witness in their governments' case against Saddam. A son-in-law of the dictator, he had overall authority for Iraq's weapons' programmes, and defected with crates of documents.

When Secretary of State Colin Powell made the Anglo-American case for an attack on Iraq before the UN Security Council, he relied on and paid tribute to the reliability of General Kamel's evidence. What he did not reveal, as the transcript of the general's debriefing reveals, was this categorical statement by Kamel: "I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons -biological, chemical, missile, nuclear - were destroyed."

The CIA and Britain's MI6 of course knew about this; and it beggars belief that Bush and Blair were not told. But neither of them let on - just as Colin Powell suppressed his informant's most sensational information, which would have contradicted all his spurious claims. General Kamel (who was later murdered by Saddam Hussein) corroborated Scott Ritter's statement that Iraq had been disarmed "90 to 95 per cent".

Iraq was attacked so that the United States and Britain could claim its oil and its assets. Only Mary Poppins would believe otherwise.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/con...-name_page.html

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2297042 -

On the summer solstice, 200miles south of baghdad, the rising sun, will create a mist which will form a rainbow leading to the hidden cache of wmd buried under the sand and guarded by leprechuans.

:lol:.

but don't tell, its secret!


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2297045 -

Well, as luvdemlies would say,  "You can't prove it won't" :smile2:

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2297243 -

touche!.... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2297802 -

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Well, as luvdemlies would say,  "You can't prove it won't" :smile2:


Pretty bitter over losing all those arguements, aren't you?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2297827 -

you can't prove he is... :smirk: :lol: :wink:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2298306 -

No, way more than 10% came from Israel, also Turkey.

Either way, if the intelligence is flawed then it's flawed, Bill Clinton cut our defense and intel by more than half during the 1990's, it's nowhere near as good as it was at the end of the cold war. It wouldn't suprise me if we did have some flaws in intel, but I don't think so this time.. Saddam had WMD and shipped them to Syria, no doubt in my mind and a lot of others.

Bush isn't wrong either way we look at it, he did what his daddy and Klintoon should of done a long time ago, get rid of Saddam. If the intel was wrong then it was reported wrong to him, it's not his fault, his intensions are trying to protect the American people in a global war against terror.

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