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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD??
    #1394159 - 03/20/03 04:07 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

ok, to all of you out there who are opposed to this war, do you believe saddam when he says he has no WMD, or Bush when he says saddam does?
I ask this, because he obviously does, it's common sense when you look at the evindence. True, the US has not presented much new evidence of WMD, but are these stockpiles really that difficult to hide in a country where more than a third of the land is uninhabited?? Do you think it is really that difficult for saddam to delay, trick, and confuse inspectors enough to move these weapons to a different location?? NO. Not at all. That is why the call for the US to provide more evidence of WMD is stupid. According to inspectors saddam has not provided enough evidence that he has none. Who lost the last war?? So why doesn't the burden of proof fall on Saddam?? That's what the inspections were supposed to be about in the first place.
By the way if you really do believe Saddam has no WMD, please at least eductae yourself on the subject, the best, and perhaps scariest book i have read on the subject is:
Saddams Bombmaker: The Terrifying Inside Story of the Iraqi Nuclear and Biological Weapons Agenda
by: Dr.Khidhir Hamza
he was the head of the iraqi nuclear weapons development for two decades, and has arguably the most inside knowledge of saddam's weapons systems, as well as he method of rule. This book would give me nightmares if i lived in Kuwait, Israel, etc...

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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394171 - 03/20/03 04:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

To my knowledge Iraq has never possessed atomic weapons, which are the only weapons of mass destruction. WMD has become an over used term lately. Chemical weapons don't massivly destroy things, they leave structures and inanimate things intact.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394172 - 03/20/03 04:13 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Best not to believe either Saddam or Bush but the UN weapons inspectors on the ground. Who have stated Iraq is 90-95% disarmed. That's a higher percentage disarmament figure than any other country on earth.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 6 months, 16 days
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394177 - 03/20/03 04:15 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Saddam and George are both liars.

Iraq have WMD but nowhere near the amount the US claim.

Most of the nerve gas etc that gets talked about would be useless now even if the Iraqi's still had it.



--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1394180 - 03/20/03 04:17 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

To my knowledge Iraq has never possessed atomic weapons, which are the only weapons of mass destruction. WMD has become an over used term lately. Chemical weapons don't massivly destroy things, they leave structures and inanimate things intact.



You are correct. It seems that the Bush administration has borrowed a tactic from the liberal playbook of redefining terms to suite their agenda. Bush cannot be trusted, Sadam Hussein cannot be trusted.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394183 - 03/20/03 04:18 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Saddam has chemical and biological weapons, alright. But Bush conveniently expanded the definition of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" to include these, as opposed to the previous definition, which only included nuclear weapons. Since I hate Bush, and since chemical and biological weapons don't destroy on nearly the scale that nukes do, I will not accept his new definition, and will instead go with the previous definition. I have not seen the slightest bit of evidence that Saddam possesses nukes. So in other words, ya, I really believe Saddam has no WMD.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1394217 - 03/20/03 04:31 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Silversoul writes:

But Bush conveniently expanded the definition of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" to include these, as opposed to the previous definition, which only included nuclear weapons.

So sorry, but it wasn't Bush who "changed" the definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction to include bio and chemical. You are correct that originally the international community defined WMD as strictly nuclear devices, but as it became apparent that some nerve agents and especially biological weapons (i.e. a fatal contagious disease which could develop into a worldwide epidemic) were capable of at least as many deaths, that definition was expanded.

I don't know about you, but I first heard the phrase "WMD" decades ago. Why don't you go to the UN website and see what their definition of WMD includes?

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394219 - 03/20/03 04:32 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

i don't think he has nukes but i am pretty confident about the chemical and biological.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1394222 - 03/20/03 04:34 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Forgive me inny, but you being "pretty confident" doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.

You've heard Shrub tell you they have em - that's basically your entire basis for believing it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1394262 - 03/20/03 04:46 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Best not to believe either Saddam or Bush but the UN weapons inspectors on the ground



or Dr. Khidhir Hamza. The only reason to believe the weapons inspectors would be if you thought Saddam was giving full cooperation, which he wasnt.
Quote:

That's a higher percentage disarmament figure than any other country on earth.



hahahahahaha, i just love how you try to make points out of nothing

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1394266 - 03/20/03 04:47 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Forgive me inny, but you being "pretty confident" doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence



i'd believe Colin Powell over you anyday...or are you agreeing with the BBC?

Quote:

that's basically your entire basis for believing it.



do you actually think before you type?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1394271 - 03/20/03 04:49 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

To my knowledge Iraq has never possessed atomic weapons, which are the only weapons of mass destruction.



so we should wait til he gets one then??
as i have posted in another thread, there is proof that saddam has been trying to obtain the components necessary to build a nuke.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 6 months, 16 days
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394275 - 03/20/03 04:50 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a higher percentage disarmament figure than any other country on earth.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hahahahahaha, i just love how you try to make points out of nothing




What if its true? I doubt you would check. Your dogma might fall off.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,685
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394279 - 03/20/03 04:50 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I think WMDs are anything that kills or destroys..

Personaly I could kill thousands with one Liter of anthrax with a home made bomb from parts in my garage...

So yah, Im pretty sure Sadam has WMDs.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Phred]
    #1394281 - 03/20/03 04:51 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

A quick websearch reveals this, from http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorw.htm --

Weapons of Mass Destruction

This term for a nuclear, biological, or chemical weapon is older than you might think. It actually dates to 1937, before the existence of nuclear or biological weapons. It was first used by the London Times on 28 December of that year, "Who can think without horror of what another widespread war would mean, waged as it would be with all the new weapons of mass destruction?" The original reference is to aerial bombing of cities, which had become a reality that year in the Spanish Civil War, chemicals, and other modern weaponry.

In the 1960s, the term weapons of mass destruction became a jargon term of the arms control community. Throughout the rest of the 20th century, the term pretty much remained an arms control jargon term, until 2002 when events in Iraq brought the term into the public eye.


If you feel more comfortable using the older term "NBC" rather than "WMD", it doesn't change the fact that the 1991 conditional surrender specifically requires that Hussein provide convincing proof of the destruction of all his biological, chemical, and nuclear weaponry AND the destruction of all facilities used for their production.

Call it NBC, call it WMD, call it "nukes, germs, and gas" -- it doesn't alter the principle involved.

pinky


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1394325 - 03/20/03 05:04 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What if its true? I doubt you would check. Your dogma might fall off.



i have no doubt it's true, but i doubt it's verifiable. Also, what i meant was iraq was ordered by the UN to disarm. of course they are going to have a higher "percentage disarmament figure" than other countries in the world.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394495 - 03/20/03 05:57 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

To my knowledge Iraq has never possessed atomic weapons, which are the only weapons of mass destruction.



so we should wait til he gets one then??
as i have posted in another thread, there is proof that saddam has been trying to obtain the components necessary to build a nuke.



I don't care if Iraq has 50 a-bombs. He's on the other side of the world and he's never bothered me.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinegrib
 User Gallery

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394514 - 03/20/03 06:04 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ok, to all of you out there who are opposed to this war, do you believe saddam when he says he has no WMD, or Bush when he says saddam does?




I prefer evidence. People should not believe everything they hear or read regardless of source -- verify the facts. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: grib]
    #1394612 - 03/20/03 06:35 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Question: How do you tell when a politician is lying?
Answer: His lips move.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Evolving]
    #1394672 - 03/20/03 06:49 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

We'll find out soon enough.

If he has them, odds are overwhelming that he'll use them on US troops. Knowing his psychology, if he's going to die, he'll try to do it with a bang.

If no WMD are deployed against US forces, Saddam didn't have them. Period. Anything that US forces claim to "find" after hostilities are over is clearly suspect (at least for any thinking person).

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1394728 - 03/20/03 07:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I bet saddam has some WD left, it would be stupid to disable yourself with the neighbours they have and the US interest in that country. WMD? I seriously doubt he has enough for concern, but the US has them for sure, and will use them pre-emptively if this war doesn't go exactly as they plan...and there in lies the problem.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1395435 - 03/20/03 12:28 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

, do you believe saddam when he says he has no WMD, or Bush when he says saddam does?






I guess WMD is a relative term. A single machine gun with ammo could have won you the world back in the sword fighting days...

Sadddam shot a few SCUDS off, so I heard. The best he could hit was an uninhabited beach...these weapons were banned by 1441...so, it's hardly very scary.

No, Saddam don't have no WMD, I expect the worst he's got would be some short range chemical weapons, which he might use in last resort.

Glad not to be there...Thanx Chretien!


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1398018 - 03/21/03 08:57 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Thank him personnaly!  Thats what i did! :grin:

pm@pm.gc.ca


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1398231 - 03/21/03 10:46 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The reason the U.S. govt. is certain he has these weapons (whatever you want to call them) is because they have records of the amounts and types of these things that they provided him. Since he has not offered any proof that he has destroyed them, one could assume that the only reason he can't is that they were destroyed in the first war a decade ago.

Now, if these weapons are considered so terrible that we can justify waging a war to ensure that they don't come back to haunt us (as opposed to whomever we were fine with them haunting originally), then I believe those who made the decision to provide Hussein with them should answer for it. I'm reiterating what I said in the post call for justice

At the very least, legislation should be passed banning the same mistake from ever being made again--no WMD, or NBC, should ever be provided to an "ally", ever.

hongomon

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1398324 - 03/21/03 11:19 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

SCUDS may not be accurate, but they can do a LOT of damage.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Murex]
    #1399229 - 03/21/03 06:21 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

They arn't scuds.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: hongomon]
    #1399386 - 03/21/03 08:52 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Any chemical weapons he had 10 years ago would no longer be usable anyway.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1399762 - 03/22/03 04:33 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Any chemical weapons he had 10 years ago would no longer be usable anyway.




Yes, I've heard that said. I suppose I'd like to learn more about the shelf-life of these things. If true, it makes me wonder what the fuss is about a ten-year-old disarming treaty. Of course, if Hussein's been sitting on a pile of expired chemicals and wouldn't publically destroy them...???

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: hongomon]
    #1400127 - 03/22/03 07:46 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

hongomon writes:

I suppose I'd like to learn more about the shelf-life of these things.

The shelf-life argument doesn't wash, for several reasons. Some of the chemicals (mustard gas, for example) have an extremely long shelf-life. Others are stored as "binary" components and mixed just before loading. As I recall, tests have even been done on binary shells, where the mixing occurs at time of impact.

If true, it makes me wonder what the fuss is about a ten-year-old disarming treaty.

Nukes have a long shelf-life (not that I personally think he has any). Solid fuel missiles have a long shelf-life. Besides, though everyone focuses most strongly on the term calling for him to provide proof of destruction of his NBC inventory, there are several other unfulfilled terms (all of them actually) in that agreement. Return of Kuwaiti bodies and POWs, reparations, his promise to stop oppressing minorities and dissidents, to name the ones I can think of immediately.

Finally, who cares if it was one year or ten years? If it was one year, people scream "You're moving too fast!" If it is 10 years, people sigh, "Oh, let bygones be bygones." If it is 12 years, people scream "You're moving too fast! Give diplomacy some time to work!"

Do you think there should be a "Statute of Limitations" invoked here?

pinky



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Phred]
    #1400301 - 03/22/03 09:04 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The shelf-life argument doesn't wash, for several reasons

It does with anyone with basic chemical or biological knowledge. As a UN weapons inspector put it:

Well, look: As of December 1998 we had accounted for 90 to 95 percent of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capability -- "we" being the weapons inspectors. We destroyed all the factories, all of the means of production and we couldn't account for some of the weaponry, but chemical weapons have a shelf-life of five years. Biological weapons have a shelf-life of three years. To have weapons today, they would have had to rebuild the factories and start the process of producing these weapons since December 1998.





--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1400328 - 03/22/03 09:20 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

It does with anyone with basic chemical or biological knowledge.

Does your basic knowledge extend to the very well-known and hardly new development of binary chemical weapons?

pinky



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Phred]
    #1400348 - 03/22/03 09:31 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I presume you've just read about it. Otherwise you would have mentioned it earlier instead of just mentioning the one gas that is stable.

My advice is read a little more before you try and start a debate about it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1400384 - 03/22/03 09:54 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I presume you've just read about it.

No, Alex, I have known about it for decades. As I pointed out, the binary concept is neither new nor is it technologically challenging. As a matter of fact, many chem weapons are routinely stored in binary form, for reasons of both safety and shelf-life, as well as a form of (admittedly specious) "deniability".

Otherwise you would have mentioned it earlier instead of just mentioning the one gas that is stable.

Try actually reading my post, Alex.

My advice is read a little more...

My advice is to read a post before responding to it.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Phred]
    #1400388 - 03/22/03 09:56 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Remember that binary form does not give a chemical weapons an indefinate shelf-life. Even with it after 5-10 years they are useless.

And as the UN weapons inspectors pointed out, the binary precursors were destroyed too in 1996.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (03/22/03 09:59 AM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1400421 - 03/22/03 10:14 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Remember that binary form does not give a chemical weapons an indefinate shelf-life.

With some, yes it does. With others it doesn't. Depends entirely on the nature of the precursors required to create the compound in question.

Even with it after 5-10 years they are useless.

Source, please. I call you on that one.

And as the UN weapons inspectors pointed out, the binary precursors were destroyed too in 1996.

Some were. And of course it is impossible for Hussein to have produced more precursors in 1998 or 1999 or 2000 or 2001 or 2002 because... well, just because you believe it to be so, right?

pinky



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Phred]
    #1400425 - 03/22/03 10:18 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

All of this highlights the complexity of these issues. We clearly still have an unresolved VX issue in Iraq. But when you step away from the emotion of the lie and look at the evidence, you see a destroyed research and development plant, destroyed precursors, destroyed agent, destroyed weapons and a destroyed factory.

That is pretty darned good. Even if Iraq had held on to stabilised VX agent, it is likely it would have degraded by today. Real questions exist as to whether Iraq perfected the stabilisation process. Even a minor deviation in the formula creates proteins that destroy the VX within months. The real question is: is there a VX nerve agent factory in Iraq today? Not on your life.

-- UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1400437 - 03/22/03 10:28 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The real question is: is there a VX nerve agent factory in Iraq today? Not on your life.

This from a man who hasn't been in Iraq since 1997.

pinky


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #1400558 - 03/22/03 11:36 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

do you believe saddam when he says he has no WMD




What anyone or I believe is of no value if there is no substantive proof. I have none and I have seen none. If you have substantive proof please share. I so much want to have faith in the U.S., government. After all, I did vote for Mr. Bush.

Quote:

it's common sense when you look at the evindence




Again, please provide substantive evidence. Speculation and hearsay do not qualify.



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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: grib]
    #2283393 - 01/29/04 09:45 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Bump for old times sake. Funnily enough an awful lot of the pre-war posts by neocons confidently stating that Iraq had WMD seem to be "gone missing" themselves..rather like the WMD... :lol:

We were all wrong, says ex-weapons inspector

Simon Jeffery and agencies
Thursday January 29, 2004

The former head of the US weapons inspection teams in Iraq has said "we were almost all wrong" in believing before the war that Saddam Hussein had chemical or biological arms.
David Kay, who last week resigned from the Iraq Survey Group, told a Senate hearing yesterday that failures had become too apparent in the US's intelligence-gathering capabilities.

"Let me begin by saying, we were almost all wrong, and I certainly include myself here," he said.

"I believe that the effort that has been directed to this point has been sufficiently intense that it is highly unlikely that there were large stockpiles of deployed militarised chemical and biological weapons there."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1134290,00.html

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2284371 - 01/29/04 02:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I thought Saddam would of had or used something...he had nothing! It was all a huge lie!

I knew it was all overblown and that the States just wanted an excuse but holy shit! NOTHING! All those military satelites taking pictures...Colon Bowel showed up at the UN with some of those pictures, part of his 'proof', and still nothing. I think any credibility the USA had on this matter was from their extra-ordinary spy capacities...who could not believe someone who can actually see the ground of Iraq with high resolution?

And those weapons inspectors? Oh yeah, Saddam was playing them for fools. They couldn't get into the places they wanted to go...etc...

You just shouldn't believe liars. Another lesson I learned once again.

And what deos it matter to ol' Bushy now? Him and his buddies got what they wanted, and they are immune from any responsibilities of their "mistake".

In fact, they just get richer by providing their friends with weapons and/or rebuilding contracts, not to mention buying government bonds, T-bills, etc to finance the huge debt this is creating.

They did their job well. The hellbound bastards.


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Edited by carbonhoots (01/29/04 03:04 PM)

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #2284542 - 01/29/04 03:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

flow said:
ok, to all of you out there who are opposed to this war, do you believe saddam when he says he has no WMD, or Bush when he says saddam does?
I ask this, because he obviously does, it's common sense when you look at the evindence.  True, the US has not presented much new evidence of WMD, but are these stockpiles really that difficult to hide in a country where more than a third of the land is uninhabited?? Do you think it is really that difficult for saddam to delay, trick, and confuse inspectors enough to move these weapons to a different location?? NO.  Not at all.  That is why the call for the US to provide more evidence of WMD is stupid.  According to inspectors saddam has not provided enough evidence that he has none.  Who lost the last war?? So why doesn't the burden of proof fall on Saddam?? That's what the inspections were supposed to be about in the first place.
By the way if you really do believe Saddam has no WMD, please at least eductae yourself on the subject, the best, and perhaps scariest book i have read on the subject is:
Saddams Bombmaker: The Terrifying Inside Story of the Iraqi Nuclear and Biological Weapons Agenda
by: Dr.Khidhir Hamza
he was the head of the iraqi nuclear weapons development for two decades, and has arguably the most inside knowledge of saddam's weapons systems, as well as he method of rule.  This book would give me nightmares if i lived in Kuwait, Israel, etc...
   




:lol:





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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #2284568 - 01/29/04 03:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

We know he had chemical weapons, thats because the USA sold them to him. Why does it bother you if he had them anyways, when was he a threat.


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #2284902 - 01/29/04 06:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

saddam was never a threat. all those countries have is oil and power/influence that come with it. there will be no interest in "helping" the middle east once the resources are gone. they will get the same assistance african coutries get. all that will be left is a desire for water and the israel/arab conflict.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2286039 - 01/30/04 01:13 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I thought Saddam would of had or used something...he had nothing! It was all a huge lie!

Amazing isn't it. You'd think the neocons who swallowed this shit whole to the extent of parroting it for months would now be seriously questioning their beliefs.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2288519 - 01/30/04 10:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Bump for old times sake. Funnily enough an awful lot of the pre-war posts by neocons confidently stating that Iraq had WMD seem to be "gone missing" themselves..rather like the WMD... :lol:

We were all wrong, says ex-weapons inspector

Simon Jeffery and agencies
Thursday January 29, 2004

The former head of the US weapons inspection teams in Iraq has said "we were almost all wrong" in believing before the war that Saddam Hussein had chemical or biological arms.
David Kay, who last week resigned from the Iraq Survey Group, told a Senate hearing yesterday that failures had become too apparent in the US's intelligence-gathering capabilities.

"Let me begin by saying, we were almost all wrong, and I certainly include myself here," he said.

"I believe that the effort that has been directed to this point has been sufficiently intense that it is highly unlikely that there were large stockpiles of deployed militarised chemical and biological weapons there."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1134290,00.html




did you ever stop to consider the six months before the weapons inspectors went into iraq?? How do you know that he didnt move weapons into syria or elsewhere?


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2288545 - 01/30/04 11:02 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
Quote:

Alex123 said:
Bump for old times sake. Funnily enough an awful lot of the pre-war posts by neocons confidently stating that Iraq had WMD seem to be "gone missing" themselves..rather like the WMD... :lol:

We were all wrong, says ex-weapons inspector

Simon Jeffery and agencies
Thursday January 29, 2004

The former head of the US weapons inspection teams in Iraq has said "we were almost all wrong" in believing before the war that Saddam Hussein had chemical or biological arms.
David Kay, who last week resigned from the Iraq Survey Group, told a Senate hearing yesterday that failures had become too apparent in the US's intelligence-gathering capabilities.

"Let me begin by saying, we were almost all wrong, and I certainly include myself here," he said.

"I believe that the effort that has been directed to this point has been sufficiently intense that it is highly unlikely that there were large stockpiles of deployed militarised chemical and biological weapons there."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1134290,00.html




did you ever stop to consider the six months before the weapons inspectors went into iraq?? How do you know that he didnt move weapons into syria or elsewhere?



Because it would have been foolish of him to do so.  Why would you throw away your main means of defense when you've got a country coming to invade you?


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2288547 - 01/30/04 11:02 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

To perhaps avoid an invansion.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2288553 - 01/30/04 11:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

And to save many of you the response of Bush would have invaded them anyway Im posting it now. But I don't buy it


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2288558 - 01/30/04 11:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

If so, then he certainly didn't understand Bush and the neocons very well.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2288560 - 01/30/04 11:07 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
And to save many of you the response of Bush would have invaded them anyway Im posting it now. But I don't buy it



Go ahead. Don't buy it. It's still true. I mean, he DID invade anyway, didn't he?


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2288562 - 01/30/04 11:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps, Im just sick of people saying saddam had no WMD's. You can't prove it either way. He may or may not have. We may never even know. I don't think anyone has the right to say he did have them or he didn't plain and simple


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2288798 - 01/31/04 01:05 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So you don't think there's a single person who worked on WMD in the last 10 years who would come forward and say "Hey guys, give me 50 million and I'll lead you to where we made the WMD".

Not very likely is it.

It's a lot more likely the neocons needed an excuse and thought WMD fitted the bill isn't it.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2289325 - 01/31/04 09:14 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So you don't think there's a single person who worked on WMD in the last 10 years who would come forward and say "Hey guys, give me 50 million and I'll lead you to where we made the WMD".

Not very likely is it.

It's a lot more likely the neocons needed an excuse and thought WMD fitted the bill isn't it.




Once agains something that cant be proven either way


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2289434 - 01/31/04 10:55 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Nah if they existed someone who worked on them would've come forward and made themselves a multi-millionaire months ago.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2289480 - 01/31/04 11:44 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I can't prove that i'm sitting here typing this. By all evidence, I am.

BTW, wonder why Saddam didn't go hide with his WMD. He would have never been found.  :shocked:






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Edited by Learyfan (01/31/04 05:25 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2289667 - 01/31/04 01:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

To your credit you have a handle on the difference of "proof" and "evidence".

Would that all did.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #2290086 - 01/31/04 04:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Chemical and Bio weapons do a huge amount of damage over a vast area, and are considered weapons of mass destruction, yes. The UN says 90-95%, that's not 100% meaning Saddam still had WMD left. Remember it wasn't only US intelligence that said Saddam still had WMD left, it was Israilli, British, Saudi, Turkish, French... etc.. everyones intel said he had them. I believe he did have them weeks before the war started but sent them to either Iran or Syria who are both very deeply anti- US. Ariel intel showed significant traffic and multitudes of trucks and other equpiment entering into Syria in the weeks before the war.. on top of that several Iraqi scientists recently have stated on record that Saddam sent WMD to Syria.

The theroy is just to real, Saddam could of easily have done this and i'm sure did do this. Remember these key facts: Everyones Intel said he had WMD before the war, including the UN, Ariel intelligence showed movement and Iraqi's involved in Saddams programs said he sent them to Syria. That's just to much evidence, Saddam had them and Bush did the right thing by invading. Saddam was just to much of a risk to our national security, he could of easily given the weapons to a terrorist who could of used them against us on our own soil.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: flow]
    #2290202 - 01/31/04 05:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2290231 - 01/31/04 05:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
To your credit you have a handle on the difference of "proof" and "evidence".

Would that all did.




Hey thanks man.


Snobrdr311: So let me get this straight. Once Saddam realized that his country was going to be invaded for sure, he sent all of his weapons to another country.

His only means of defense. He got rid of them once he knew he was to be invaded.




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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2290514 - 01/31/04 07:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Absolutly.

And where do you get this nonsense that it's his only means of defense? He didn't have any soldiers who fought and died for him? Who killed our men along the way? He didn't have stockpiles of weapons caches that we found? Come on.. he moved them (WMD) to another country so we wouldn't find them after we had control. Even if he used WMD on us we still would have won and kicked him out of power anyway, he knew this.. he knew he was done for.. so he got rid of the WMD to try and make our reasoning for attacking him look empty, which is wasn't and isn't either way.. but all in all to hide and move the WMD was his only defense, and the only way he would of been able to try to fuck us in the end.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290582 - 01/31/04 08:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So why didn't he just turn them all in before the invasion? If we were invading him based on the fact that he had WMD's, why didn't he just give them all up to save his regime? You're telling me that a guy that did everything possible to stay in luxery and power let it all go over keeping some WMD's. NO FUCKING WAY

Why is it that all his scientists and high ranking Bathists say he never had any- if they revealed anything that would help us, they would probably get significantly shorter sentences or receive some kind of bargain.

And there have already been instances when supposed "intelligence" has been proven wrong, hasty or flat out bogus. What does intelligence even mean anyway? What is the exact context of this "intelligence?"

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2290727 - 01/31/04 09:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yes intelligence could be wrong, like anything in life you can always make mistakes, but it wasn't only us who's intel said he had it, even French intel, German intel.. two coutries who were against the effort from the start said they were convinced he had it.. with that amount of intel and the UN all saying he had WMD there's no way in hell it all could of been wrong.

Saddam giving into his enimies would make him look weak to to the rest of the world and tarnish the reputation he wanted, and the way he wanted to go down in history as a great arab babalonian leader, giving up and admitting he lied about WMD's would ruin him, embaress his regime and destroy any credibility his supporters ever gave him. He was going to go down no matter what, he knew that, that's why Tarq Aziz stated after he was captured that Saddam did little to prevent invasion and overthrow, cuz he knew he was fucked no matter what... his whole plan was to try and make our efforts look bad by not coming up with WMD's, the reason the administration gave for going to war to begin with.

Either Syria or Iran has them, without a doubt, and we're fucked because we can't go in there and find them. Saddam was awesome when he planned this part of the war, i'll give him credit for that.. eveything else points to him as being an incompitent military leader, but the WMD plan was a good one for sure.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2290728 - 01/31/04 09:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2290738 - 01/31/04 09:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Live and a hole and keep fighting with a chance of re-gaining power again someday if never caught, most definatly.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290771 - 01/31/04 10:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

His weapons of mass destruction have not been found. Why didn't he go to wherever they are?





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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2290787 - 01/31/04 10:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Because they didn't want the US against them and invading them, possibly declaring war against them for harboring their enimies... they didn't want Saddam staying there, but they gladly would of taken the weapons if he gave them to them. That in itself is a much more low profile task, take the weapons in trucks on a one time trip across the boarder, dump them there and let them sit... there ya go.

With bringing Saddam into the country and offering him refuge you are risking a hell of a lot more! You have to cover his idenity, hide him, make sure no one spills the truth or talks.. keep the secret.. you think that's easy? Syria didn't want him there but gladly would of taken his weapons for free if he offered. Come on guys, it makes total sense, anyone with an open mind can't possibly rule this out or think it's not totally logical.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2290797 - 01/31/04 10:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hey Learyfan, I like your quote, "think for yourself and question authority." I agree with that.

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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290891 - 01/31/04 11:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Snobrdr311 said:
Hey Learyfan, I like your quote, "think for yourself and question authority."  I agree with that.




Thanks. That's actually Timothy Leary's though.

:cool:


www.spiritualscience.org/leary.gif">


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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2290972 - 02/01/04 01:07 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Chemical and Bio weapons do a huge amount of damage over a vast area, and are considered weapons of mass destruction, yes

Actually they arn't very effective at all and most experts struggle to call them WMD.

First, developing materials in pure enough forms to allow for effective dissemination is extraordinarily complex, and second, distributing the materials in a wide enough area to effect large numbers of people remains dauntingly difficult. In more than a dozen attempts to release botulism and anthrax aum failed to kill anyone at all. Eventually, the cult managed to release the chemical agent sarin on the Tokyo underground and killed 12 people, not the tens of thousands they were hoping to kill.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1608377.stm

Since the media has decided to scare everyone with predictions of chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf, I have decided to write a paper to help keep things in their proper perspective. I am a retired military weapons, munitions, and training expert.

Lesson number one: In the mid 1990s there were a series of nerve gas attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations. Given perfect conditions for an attack, less than 10% of the people there were injured (the injured were better in a few hours) and only one percent of the injured died. 60 Minutes once had a fellow telling us that one drop of nerve gas could kill a thousand people. What he didn't tell us is that the thousand dead people per drop was theoretical. Drill Sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff is to keep the recruits awake in class (I know this because I was a Drill Sergeant too). Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff, it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!)! These weapons are about terror. If you remain calm, you probably will not die. This is far less scary than the media and their "experts," make it sound.

Chemical weapons are categorized as Nerve, Blood, Blister, and Incapacitating agents. Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians, they are not weapons of mass destruction. They are "Area Denial Weapons" and terror weapons that don't destroy anything. When you leave the area you almost always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk. Soldiers may have to stay put; that's why they need all that spiffy gear.

Nuclear bombs. These are the only weapons of mass destruction on earth.


http://www.conservativetruth.org/attack/therealdeal.shtml

Remember it wasn't only US intelligence that said Saddam still had WMD left

Not quite, if you read most of the intelligence carefully there is very little in the way of direct proof - mostly it's guesswork and supposition that Bush and the neocons talked up. That's why the UN wouldn't authorise military action and wanted the inspectors to have more time - the intelligence simply wasn't reliable enough to launch a pre-emptive war of aggression.

on top of that several Iraqi scientists recently have stated on record that Saddam sent WMD to Syria.

Do you have any reliable evidence of this? And if there are scientists talking about WMD why havn't they taken the americans to where they made the WMD?

That's just to much evidence

What evidence is this? Because David Kay has just spent months scouring Iraq and has concluded the WMD didn't exist.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2291297 - 02/01/04 06:46 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, Kay say's a lot of things.





Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief
By Con Coughlin
(Filed: 25/01/2004)


David Kay, the former head of the coalition's hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, yesterday claimed that part of Saddam Hussein's secret weapons programme was hidden in Syria.

In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Dr Kay, who last week resigned as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said that he had uncovered evidence that unspecified materials had been moved to Syria shortly before last year's war to overthrow Saddam.

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."
Rest of the article.





Kay: Bush Was Right to Attack Iraq

Critics of the Bush administration have seized on Iraq weapons hunter David Kay's pronouncement over the weekend that Baghdad didn't have any WMDs immediately before the U.S. attacked last March.

But Tuesday morning Kay gave President Bush a full-fledged endorsement on his decision to go to war.

In an interview with NBC's "Today Show," Kay told host Matt Lauer that the U.S. decision to attack was "absolutely prudent."

"In fact," said Kay, "I think at the end of the inspection process, we'll paint a picture of Iraq that was far more dangerous than even we thought it was before the war."

Kay described Iraq's government as "a system collapsing."

"It was a country that had the capability in weapons of mass destruction areas, and ... terrorists, like ants to honey, were going after it."

Meanwhile, Saddam Hussein "was putting more money into his nuclear program, he was pushing ahead his long-range missile program as hard as he could," Kay said.

Although Baghdad wasn't successful, Kay said Iraq "had the intent to acquire these weapons," adding that Saddam had "invested huge amounts of money" to do so.

The chief weapons hunter also debunked the notion that the White House pressured U.S. intelligence to exaggerate the Iraq threat.

"The tendency to say, well, it must have been pressure from the White House is absolutely wrong," he told "Today."
Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2291434 - 02/01/04 09:40 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So Mommar Quadafi is cooperating with the U.S. why then? Does he look completely weak now? Nope, he is cooperating because he wants to stay in power, and he knows the U.S. masses are so brain dead they will buy any reason for invasion, so he is trying to look as peaceful as possible. Sorry, but a homicidal madman that was addicted to power and luxury throwing it all away over martyrdom is simply your opinion of his psychology which means does not mean anything.

I agree with you on one issue though. He knew the United States was going to invade his country no matter what, he even said it on many occasions, but that has nothing to do with what he did with his weapons. You make all these claims that sound like they came right out of David Frum's or Karl Rove's mouths. There has been no evidence that he gave any WMD's to anybody, so you're still not saying anything based on any proof.

And I'll ask yet again- what is the context of this intelligence? How can you say for sure he gave/sold all his weapons to Iran or Syria? Don't use White House war-mongering logic either for your answer. What intelligence do they have? Intelligence doesn't mean: "we think he has them." This is why the people in Great Britain dont buy the Hutton outcome, because the evidence speaks otherwise- that the intelligence report is based on doctored up fluff.

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OfflineSnobrdr311
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2296115 - 02/03/04 12:23 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Rather than try to argue with someone who can't accept logical theroys as a possibility, i'll stick to what luvdemshrooms said as my responce, it's a decent one.. I could offer excellent logical insight, again.. but why? All you're going to do is find another way to argue with me, it's not worth the time.

I will look through google again though so I can find the non partisan based websties that offered sources of the international intel that said Saddam had WMD. There's many differnt nations, trust me.

I'll get back to that

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296879 - 02/03/04 09:16 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yeah? I think you will find 90% of the intel came from UK and US sources.

Perhaps you'd also be so kind as to offer your opinion on how the intel changed so dramaticaly in the space of a mere 12 months? In 2001 Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell both made statements that made it clear Iraq was no longer considered a threat, had been effectively contained by the use of sanctions and had no active weapons programs.
However by 2002 this had been completely replaced with the "Saddam is the biggest threat to world peace" hysteria that Bush and Blair used to whip up support for the war. Now it appears that the original 2001 intel was in fact correct. So how did this little period of stupidity manifest itself?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2297039 - 02/03/04 10:42 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I will look through google again though so I can find the non partisan based websties that offered sources of the international intel that said Saddam had WMD. There's many differnt nations, trust me.

One intelligence source referred to this the other day as "the dangers of group-think". When the intelligence is so poor, vague and based mainly on intercepted communications and satellites rather than humans on the ground "group-think" can take over. Where one group blindly accepts the conclusion of another group.

In any case as Gazz points out everyone knew it was all bullshit years ago:

The truth is that the Blair government has known, almost from the day it came to office in 1997, that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were almost certainly destroyed following the 1991 Gulf War - just as Bush's weapons expert, David Kay, has now confirmed.

What else did Blair know?

In February last year, a transcript of a leaked United Nations debriefing of Iraqi general Hussein Kamel, revealed that both the US and British governments must have known that Saddam Hussein no longer had weapons of mass destruction. General Kamel was no ordinary defector; he was Bush and Blair's star witness in their governments' case against Saddam. A son-in-law of the dictator, he had overall authority for Iraq's weapons' programmes, and defected with crates of documents.

When Secretary of State Colin Powell made the Anglo-American case for an attack on Iraq before the UN Security Council, he relied on and paid tribute to the reliability of General Kamel's evidence. What he did not reveal, as the transcript of the general's debriefing reveals, was this categorical statement by Kamel: "I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons -biological, chemical, missile, nuclear - were destroyed."

The CIA and Britain's MI6 of course knew about this; and it beggars belief that Bush and Blair were not told. But neither of them let on - just as Colin Powell suppressed his informant's most sensational information, which would have contradicted all his spurious claims. General Kamel (who was later murdered by Saddam Hussein) corroborated Scott Ritter's statement that Iraq had been disarmed "90 to 95 per cent".

Iraq was attacked so that the United States and Britain could claim its oil and its assets. Only Mary Poppins would believe otherwise.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/con...-name_page.html

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2297042 - 02/03/04 10:45 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

On the summer solstice, 200miles south of baghdad, the rising sun, will create a mist which will form a rainbow leading to the hidden cache of wmd buried under the sand and guarded by leprechuans.

:lol:.

but don't tell, its secret!


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Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2297045 - 02/03/04 10:47 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well, as luvdemlies would say,  "You can't prove it won't" :smile2:

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2297243 - 02/03/04 12:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

touche!.... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2297802 - 02/03/04 03:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Well, as luvdemlies would say,  "You can't prove it won't" :smile2:



Pretty bitter over losing all those arguements, aren't you?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2297827 - 02/03/04 03:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

you can't prove he is... :smirk: :lol: :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineSnobrdr311
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2298306 - 02/03/04 05:12 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

No, way more than 10% came from Israel, also Turkey.

Either way, if the intelligence is flawed then it's flawed, Bill Clinton cut our defense and intel by more than half during the 1990's, it's nowhere near as good as it was at the end of the cold war. It wouldn't suprise me if we did have some flaws in intel, but I don't think so this time.. Saddam had WMD and shipped them to Syria, no doubt in my mind and a lot of others.

Bush isn't wrong either way we look at it, he did what his daddy and Klintoon should of done a long time ago, get rid of Saddam. If the intel was wrong then it was reported wrong to him, it's not his fault, his intensions are trying to protect the American people in a global war against terror.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2299615 - 02/04/04 03:53 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

What a surprise! Just like every other pro war person on this board you choose to ignore the question! Open your eyes man.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Do you actually believe Saddam has no WMD?? [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2299661 - 02/04/04 04:42 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It wouldn't suprise me if we did have some flaws in intel, but I don't think so this time.. Saddam had WMD and shipped them to Syria, no doubt in my mind and a lot of others.




...and the evidence again? you have very little to offer but faith.

Quote:

If the intel was wrong then it was reported wrong to him, it's not his fault, his intensions are trying to protect the American people in a global war against terror.




Yes, Bush is indeed a moron that'll believe whatever he is told by "experts". Glad we agree :smile:


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon

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