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Part of Saddam's WMD found!
    #2295972 -

In Washington DC at the Senate Mailroom! Without a doubt!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/02/03/senate.hazardous/index.html

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296032 -

Man, don't get me riled up like that.








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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Learyfan]
    #2296070 -

That's wrong, Bush takes out a dictator because he's a potential threat of US security and because he's worried about the safety of the American people, and then you make posts like this.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296091 -

You can't possibly be that brainwashed.  :ooo:





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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Learyfan]
    #2296096 -

Don't talk shit dude, this is susposed to be a debate, not a name calling contest.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296132 -

You're right, i'm sorry. That was wrong. I really didn't know weither you were being serious or not though.

I don't know man. It's late. I guess we just have different ways of looking at the situation.







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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296133 -

Is there ANY proof whatsoever that Saddam is behind this?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: silversoul7]
    #2296138 -

No, but the UN said that he did have a LOT of Rician in the country before the war, they just hadn't found it.

So the possibility is there, with the chaos and looting during the war i'm sure it could of gotten in anybodys hands by now, and doesn't take much to smuggle into the country.

I'm suprised they haven't tried to unleash some chem or bio weapons in this country yet, we've already caught terrorists in California(since 9/11) in possession of Bio and Chem agents!

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296257 -

Ricin can be extracted from beans. It's not exactly state of the art weapons technology. Anybody could make rather large quantities of Ricin.

So, yeah it's possible that Saddam is behind this. It's also possible that some twelve year old kid mailed them an envelope of his castor beans extract.


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"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."
Aldous Huxley

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296360 -

Old news, here is where they were first discovered......



:lol:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296551 -

You know it was the Soviets who were really big into Ricin. They even used it for at least one known assassination...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2296767 -

just like the anthrax scare, although didnt that turn out to be from American labs? Come to think of it the US should declare war on itself immediately for harbouring terrorist who produce WMD.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2297238 -

Snobrdr311 said:
That's wrong,  Bush takes out a dictator because he's a potential threat of US security and because he's worried about the safety of the American people,  and then you make posts like this.


ROFL! hahah...good one! :lol: :thumbup:

I nominate joke of the day! :laugh:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2297418 -

Remember last time in Iraq with the shells? Early tests showed it was blister gas, but a real test showed that it was NOTHING. Its still in the early tests. Its probably CoffeeMate.


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Beers that I have had.  Total listed:2,302

Make your own beer!
Homebrewing(Extract with Specialty Grains)
Homebrewing(All-Grain)
Home wine making
Make your own Wine!

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2298353 -

I agree, we have declared war on ourselves so to speak. The war on terror knows no one theater, it's a global war and is being fought every day on our own lands as well.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: trendal]
    #2298361 -

trendal said:
You know it was the Soviets who were really big into Ricin. They even used it for at least one known assassination...


Yeah they were big into that, and have admitted to selling a lot of WMD to Saddam after the Soviet Union fell in 1989.

It's also scary to think that a lot of their nukes are still unaccounted for, they have no idea what happened to a lot of them.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2298646 -

who/what/when/where did anyone in the soviet union admit to
selling 'a lot' of WMD to saddam after the soviet untion fell in 89?

but, come to think of it, we were selling saddam a lot of WMD
around that time too...

meh.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: afoaf]
    #2298722 -

but, come to think of it, we were selling saddam a lot of WMD
around that time too...

Bingo :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: trendal]
    #2298870 -

Making Ricin is easier than growing mushrooms. Hell if i wanted to i could.

Also that serb who was assassinated with the ricin ball and the umbrella was really intresting.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2299242 -


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2299290 -

Fiend said:
Jesus christ man, I thought you were fucking joking until halfway through the thread.  :nonono:


I thought the same thing. I swear.




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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: d33p]
    #2299712 -

Also that serb who was assassinated with the ricin ball and the umbrella was really intresting.

That's exactly the one I was referring to! Gotta give them points for originality :smirk:

For anyone who hasn't heard about it:
The Soviets assassinated a Serb with ricin once. They took a ball-bearing used in the tip of ball-point pens and hollowed it out, also drilling several holes in the surface. Then they placed three grains of ricin into the ball and coated the whole thing in sugar. It was placed on the tip of a needle that was installed in the tip of an umbrella. Poor dude was walking down the street one day when someone behind him "slipped" and poked the back of his leg with their umbrella.

Three days later the guy was dead. They almost didn't figure it out until they noticed a small red mark on his leg and dug out the ball bearing!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: afoaf]
    #2300034 -

afoaf writes:

but, come to think of it, we were selling saddam a lot of WMD
around that time too...

Incorrect. The US sold no WMD to Iraq. The closest one can come to saying about that claim is that Hussein did apparently obtain his initial Anthrax cultures from American sources. As one frequent poster here has pointed out, a petri dish is not a WMD. Besides, anthrax is (or was at the time, at least) readibly available from any medical school and veterinary college on the planet.

The US sold him no sarin, no tabun, no VX, no mustard gas, no nuclear components, no conventional weapons systems.

You'd be taken more seriously if you'd do at least a modicum of fact-checking before posting your assertions. All this has been covered countless times in this forum alone.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2300329 -

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/119547.php

yeah we didn't help Saddam with anything, keep spinning.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2301404 -

Quote:
Incorrect. The US sold no WMD to Iraq.



No they just gave him millions of dollars to buy what he needed...


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2301607 -

It's worse than that Gazz, Reagan and Bush sold Saddam tons of arms along with materials to make WMD, craftily funneling them through half a dozen middle east countries so they could lie their way out of it when they were caught. As detailed in the book "Spiders Web" by Alan Friedman.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2301819 -

Yep and they created the market by giving him the money to buy from US companies!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2302587 -

TrueBrode writes:

yeah we didn't help Saddam with anything, keep spinning.

I repeat -- the US sold no WMDs to Iraq. The article you linked proves that.

If you take the time to actually read the article you linked, and understand what you read, you will realize that.

Others have posted laundry lists here of companies that sold stuff to Iraq that had possible uses in nuke and bio and chem weaponry development. The list included companies from over sixty countries, including several from that bastion of Socialist neutrality, Sweden. Virtually every country in the world whose technology level was post-1950s was on that list.

The point I am making -- and it appears to zinged right over the heads of a few people in this thread -- the US sold no NBC weapons to Iraq. As a matter of fact, when all of Iraq's weaponry is looked at, less than 1% of even their conventional weaponry originated in the US.

I mean, give me a break -- that link of yours is frothing at the mouth because a US company supplied a plant to make ethylene. Freakin' ethylene fa cryin' out loud! I realize not all the readers here are chemists, but I'm sure everyone has heard of polyethylene -- only the commonest plastic in the world. Or ethylene glycol -- the coolant used by every gasoline engine in the world.

And the list of cultures -- again, give me a break! None of that stuff is hard to find in any medical university anywhere. Hell, I could get at least half the ones they mention right here in my crappy little third world banana republic with a few phone calls! Some of them I can get from the veteranarian that deworms my freakin' cat once a year.

Do I believe that past US administrations handled relations with Iraq flawlessly? Hell no! They did a lot of things wrong that came back to bite them on the ass, and they should have known better.

But to claim the US sold them WMDs is pure unvarnished bullshit.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2302596 -

GazzBut writes:

No they just gave him millions of dollars to buy what he needed...

As did every country who ever bought a barrel of oil from Iraq. Seeing as how Hussein had direct control over the hundreds of billions of dollars of oil revenue pouring into Iraq, the one thing he didn't lack was the cash required to arm himself.

Surely as a European you aware that the percentage of Iraqi oil sold to US (or any destination in the Western hemisphere for that matter) is trivial compared to that sold to European and Asian nations.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2302640 -

Even if he had them it?s a piss poor excuse get our country involved in it.





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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Learyfan]
    #2302728 -

Many people hold that opinion. But that's not what I was discussing..

I'm not arguing for the seven hundredth time in this forum whether it was right or wrong to depose Hussein. All I did was to point out that afoaf's statement is incorrect.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2303126 -

Just sayin' is all.





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Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


Edited by Learyfan (02/04/04 11:20 PM)

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2303857 -

Quote:
As did every country who ever bought a barrel of oil from Iraq.



No Pinky they gave him money for a barrel of oil. The US and the UK gave/loaned him money without condition knowing full well he would likely spend it on his military infrastructure. Did you read the report on Indymedia which shows that American companies sold the precursors for many chem/bio weapons to Iraq? Are you telling me that the companies who sold these precursors didnt realise he was going to use them to create WMD'S??? Your arguements just get weaker and weaker. Its actually quite amusing!

I think you might owe Afoaf an apology.


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Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (02/05/04 05:59 AM)

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2303858 -

Incidentally for somebody who is supposedly against the ever growing state you seem very keen to defend its actions.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2304223 -

I mean, give me a break -- that link of yours is frothing at the mouth because a US company supplied a plant to make ethylene. Freakin' ethylene fa cryin' out loud! I realize not all the readers here are chemists, but I'm sure everyone has heard of polyethylene -- only the commonest plastic in the world. Or ethylene glycol -- the coolant used by every gasoline engine in the world.

It was Ethylene oxide. Easily converted to thiodiglycol and used to make mustard gas.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2310861 -

GazzBut writes:

No Pinky they gave him money for a barrel of oil.

My point was that in any country where the oil industry is nationalized, each and every dollar from oil sales goes straight into government coffers, where the leader of the country gets to decide whether it gets spent on weapons or on hospitals. Please don't try to tell us the countries buying oil from Iraq were unaware of this reality.

The US and the UK gave/loaned him money without condition knowing full well he would likely spend it on his military infrastructure.

And France and Germany and Russia all loaned him substantially more than did the US. Surely you have been following the discussion on loan relief for Iraq. It can't have escaped your notice that the loans due to the US are smaller than to just about any other country -- this is why the Euros are squawking about forgiving loans -- "Sure, America, it's easy for you to say forgive the loans to Iraq. Iraq owes you almost nothing anyway!"

And -- as many, many people have pointed out in this forum -- foreign aid has a habit of being spent on things other than what it was ostensibly loaned for in the first place. The lender has no control over that. Once the money is in the hands of the borrower's government, good luck trying to enforce any loan conditions.

Did you read the report on Indymedia which shows that American companies sold the precursors for many chem/bio weapons to Iraq?

Obviously I did. Hence my comments re ethylene, for one.

Are you telling me that the companies who sold these precursors didnt realise he was going to use them to create WMD'S???

Sigh. If you go far enough down the chemical chain, anything can be described as a precursor for anything else. I seem to recall reading more than a few posts here from someone complaining bitterly that poor Hussein couldn't provide clean water to his people because he couldn't import chlorine, since it was a precursor for various chem weapons. Ignoring for the moment that of course he could and did in fact import chlorine, anyone with a basic knowledge of basic chemistry would laugh their heads off at that. Chlorine is an atomic element for heaven's sake. If you're gonna call chlorine a "precursor", than you might as well call phosphorus a precursor. You'd be a hell of a lot more accurate since organophosphates form the basis for many more nerve agents than does chlorine.

Surely you will remember the fuss near the beginning of the war when chemical plants were found and the initial reports were that they were possible WMD factories? It was later decided they had been used to make insecticides. The fact that many insecticides are chemically similar to many nerve agents -- and the fact that the same plant that makes one can readily make the other -- was derided as coincidence.

So it's okay to supply Iraq precursors if the Iraqis claim to be using them to make pesticides, but not if they use them to make Sarin or VX?

Your arguements just get weaker and weaker.

You would do well to actually read the articles you refer to, and to think a little bit about what you read before claiming anyone's arguments are weak.

Its actually quite amusing!

Not nearly as amusing as your lack of simple chemical knowledge.

I think you might owe Afoaf an apology.

When afoaf provides a link from an unimpeachable source showing the US sold Iraq WMDs I'll apologize. Even Indymedia doesn't claim they did. An ethylene factory is not WMD, nor is a brucellosis culture or an e. coli culture or even an anthrax culture.

Of course, France sold Hussein an entire nuke plant, but let's not talk about that for the moment. After all, France isn't the US.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2310879 -

GazzBut writes:

Incidentally for somebody who is supposedly against the ever growing state you seem very keen to defend its actions.

What state actions?

Private companies supplied perfectly legal stuff to a foreign customer. That has nothing to do with the US government.

I realize it may come as a surprise to a denizen of a Socialist country to realize there is such a thing as private industry on this side of the pond, but I assure you such is the case. They make their living selling stuff to people.

There are certain things the government forbids them to sell -- i.e. certain chemicals, certain computer technology, nuclear technology, and weapons technology. But -- surprise, surprise -- chlorine and ethylene are not on the restricted list. Nor are bacterial cultures.

pinky


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2311115 -

Ignoring for the moment that of course he could and did in fact import chlorine

One commodity Iraq was banned from importing was chlorine, a chemical used for both chemical weapons and water sanitization. The Defense Department knew a shortage of chlorine would kill - and has kept the ban in place for the past decade. "Unless the water is purified with chlorine, epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid could occur," the brief noted.

http://www.mike-warren.com/links/projectcensored-top-ten-underreported-stories-from-last-year.html

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2311362 -

Remember Gazz, these are the same people who stated with the same blind confidence that Iraq had "tonnes of VX gas, advanced programmes to stabilise chemical and biological weapons" etc etc.

Their knowledge of Iraq clearly counts for very, very little.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2311476 -

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the US has more WMD than any other country.

Oh... but we are good and noble and defending the Earth right so it's ok for us to have them?  :rolleyes:

Yeah...let's think back... why does Iraq hate us so much? Hmm... could it possibly have anything to do with us funding, supplying, and encouraging wars between two countries, telling both sides we are on their team, and then pulling out to watch and reap the benefits?

America IS the evil empire. If I was an Iraqi I would want to kill us too. Shit, I'm a fucking american, and I want to kill us.


^^^ Patriotism


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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Shroomism]
    #2311757 -

The neocons ain't gonna like that shroom!  :smile2:

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Shroomism]
    #2311796 -

the US has more WMD than any other country.

source?

us funding, supplying, and encouraging wars between two countries, telling both sides we are on their team, and then pulling out to watch and reap the benefits?

which war was that?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2311868 -

Well for a start mush, which country has more nuclear weapons than the US?

(That's before we even get to the stuff that most experts don't consider WMD like chemical and bio weapons)

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2311890 -

which country has more nuclear weapons than the US?

russia

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2311922 -

Source?

Not according to what it says here:

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2312003 -

the link says that the united states has a total of 10,455 nuclear weapons, 7,800 of which are actively deployed, and russia has 8,400 actively deployed, with 10,000-15,000 in reserve.

from the link:

US:

Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 8,855 (7,000 active, 1,855 inactive)

Non-strategic (tactical) Nuclear Weapons: 1,600 (800 active, 800 inactive)

Total Nuclear Weapons: 10,455 (7,800 active)


Russia:

Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 5,000 (active)

Non-strategic (tactical) Nuclear Weapons: ~3,400 (active)

Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)
Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)

Russia is currently estimated to have about 5,000 strategic nuclear warheads plus 3,400 tactical nuclear weapons. It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2313511 -

russia has 10,000-15,000,

Well not quite. Bit misleading of you mush (accidental I'm sure...). If only you'd just stuck to quoting the website rather than putting your own spin on things.

To clarify (as you finally quoted at the end of your post), it actually says "estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."

And of course you completly ignore that at the top of the page it lists nuclear weapons by country, the US heads the list with 10656 while Russia is at ~10,000.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2313684 -

Quote:
And France and Germany and Russia all loaned him substantially more than did the US.



Id like to see a source that confirms that France etc loaned more than the US, especially during the 80's. But even if they did, so what? The US was definitely the only country to tell lies to use as an excuse to attack Iraq.


Quote:
"Sure, America, it's easy for you to say forgive the loans to Iraq. Iraq owes you almost nothing anyway!"




You can try and rewrite history all you like but the simple facts remanin: The US loaned Iraq millions of dollars and sold Iraq the ingredients for WMDs. To be honest I find your posistion to be so far from the truth that it is actually offensive.

Quote:
Sigh. If you go far enough down the chemical chain, anything can be described as a precursor for anything else.



Grow a brain Pinky. What other uses, other than the production of WMDs would somebody have for Bacillus Anthracis and Clostridium Botulinum? Thats not going very far down the chemical chain at all.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2313685 -

Quote:
I realize it may come as a surprise to a denizen of a Socialist country to realize there is such a thing as private industry on this side of the pond, but I assure you such is the case. They make their living selling stuff to people.




Haha! Your ignorance knows no bounds.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2313722 -

COVER STORY: How the US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons

One of the more comprehensive and damning accounts of Iraqgate was written by Douglas Frantz and Murray Waas and published in the February 23, 1992, Los Angeles Times. Headlined, ?Bush secret effort helped Iraq build its war machine?, the article reported that ?classified documents obtained by the LA Times show ? a long-secret pattern of personal efforts by [George Bush senior] ? both as president and vice president ? to support and placate the Iraqi dictator.?

Even William Safire, the right-wing, war-mongering NYT columnist, on December 7, 1992, felt compelled to write that, ?Iraqgate is uniquely horrendous: a scandal about the systematic abuse of power by misguided leaders of three democratic nations [the US, Britain and Italy] to secretly finance the arms buildup of a dictator?.

At first, as Iraqi forces seemed headed for victory over Iran, official US policy was neutrality in the conflict. Not only was Hussein doing Washington's dirty work in the war with Iran, but the US rulers believed that Iraq could be lured away from its close economic and military relationship with the Soviet Union ? just as Egypt's President Anwar Sadat had done in the 1970s.

In March 1981, US Secretary of State Alexander Haig excitedly told the Senate foreign relations committee that Iraq was concerned by ?the behaviour of Soviet imperialism in the Middle Eastern region?. The Soviet government had refused to deliver arms to Iraq as long as Baghdad continued its military offensive against Iran. Moscow was also unhappy with the Hussein's vicious repression of the Iraqi Communist Party.

Using its allies in the Middle East, Washington funnelled huge supplies of arms to Iraq. Classified State Department cables uncovered by Frantz and Waas described covert transfers of howitzers, helicopters, bombs and other weapons to Baghdad in 1982-83 from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait.

Howard Teicher, who monitored Middle East policy at the US National Security Council during the Reagan administration, told the February 23, 1992, LA Times: ?There was a conscious effort to encourage third countries to ship US arms or acquiesce in shipments after the fact. It was a policy of nods and winks.?

According to Mark Phythian's 1997 book Arming Iraq: How the US and Britain Secretly Built Saddam's War Machine (Northeastern University Press), in 1983 Reagan asked Italy's Prime Minister Guilo Andreotti to channel arms to Iraq.

The January 1, 1984 Washington Post reported that the US had ?informed friendly Persian Gulf nations that the defeat of Iraq in the three-year-old war with Iran would be ?contrary to US interests' and has made several moves to prevent that result?.

There is no doubt that the US government knew Iraq was using chemical weapons. On March 5, 1984, the State Department had stated that ?available evidence indicates that Iraq has used lethal chemical weapons?. The March 30, 1984, NYT reported that US intelligence officials has ?what they believe to be incontrovertible evidence that Iraq has used nerve gas in its war with Iran and has almost finished extensive sites for mass producing the lethal chemical warfare agent?.

However, consistent with the pattern throughout the Iran-Iraq war and after, the use of these internationally outlawed weapons was not considered important enough by Rumsfeld and his political superiors to halt Washington's blossoming love affair with Hussein.

Conventional military sales resumed in December 1982. In 1983, the Reagan administration approved the sale of 60 Hughes helicopters to Iraq in 1983 ?for civilian use?. However, as Phythian pointed out, these aircraft could be ?weaponised? within hours of delivery. Then US Secretary of State George Schultz and commerce secretary George Baldridge also lobbied for the delivery of Bell helicopters equipped for ?crop spraying?. It is believed that US-supplied choppers were used in the 1988 chemical attack on the Kurdish village of Halabja, which killed 5000 people.

With the Reagan administration's connivance, Baghdad immediately embarked on a massive militarisation drive. This US-endorsed military spending spree began even before Iraq was delisted as a terrorist state, when the US commerce department approved the sale of Italian gas turbine engines for Iraq's naval frigates.

Soon after, the US agriculture department's Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC) guaranteed to repay loans ? in the event of defaults by Baghdad ? banks had made to Iraq to buy US-grown commodities such as wheat and rice. Under this scheme, Iraq had three years to repay the loans, and if it could not the US taxpayers would have to cough up.

Washington offered this aid initially to prevent Hussein's overthrow as the Iraqi people began to complain about the food shortages caused by the massive diversion of hard currency for the purchase of weapons and ammunition. The loan guarantees amounted to a massive US subsidy that allowed Hussein to launch his overt and covert arms buildup, one result being that the Iran-Iraq war entered a bloody five-year stalemate.

By the end of 1983, US$402 million in agriculture department loan guarantees for Iraq were approved. In 1984, this increased to $503 million and reached $1.1 billion in 1988. Between 1983 and 1990, CCC loan guarantees freed up more than $5 billion. Some $2 billion in bad loans, plus interest, ended up having to be covered by US taxpayers.

A similar taxpayer-funded, though smaller scale, scam operated under the auspices of the federal Export-Import Bank. In 1984, vice-president George Bush senior personally intervened to ensure that the bank guaranteed loans to Iraq of $500 million to build an oil pipeline. Export-Import Bank loan guarantees grew from $35 million in 1985 to $267 million by 1990.

According to William Blum, writing in the August 1998 issue of the Progressive, Sam Gejdenson, chairperson of a Congressional subcommittee investigating US exports to Iraq, disclosed that from 1985 until 1990 ?the US government approved 771 licenses [only 39 were rejected] for the export to Iraq of $1.5 billion worth of biological agents and high-tech equipment with military application ?

?The US spent virtually an entire decade making sure that Saddam Hussein had almost whatever he wanted? US export control policy was directed by US foreign policy as formulated by the State Department, and it was US foreign policy to assist the regime of Saddam Hussein.?

A 1994 US Senate report revealed that US companies were licenced by the commerce department to export a ?witch's brew? of biological and chemical materials, including bacillus anthracis (which causes anthrax) and clostridium botulinum (the source of botulism). The American Type Culture Collection made 70 shipments of the anthrax bug and other pathogenic agents.

The report also noted that US exports to Iraq included the precursors to chemical warfare agents, plans for chemical and biological warfare facilities and chemical warhead filling equipment. US firms supplied advanced and specialised computers, lasers, testing and analysing equipment. Among the better-known companies were Hewlett Packard, Unisys, Data General and Honeywell.

Billions of dollars worth of raw materials, machinery and equipment, missile technology and other ?dual-use? items were also supplied by West German, French, Italian, British, Swiss and Austrian corporations, with the approval of their governments (German firms even sold Iraq entire factories capable of mass-producing poison gas). Much of this was purchased with funds freed by the US CCC credits.

On March 16, 1988, Iraqi forces launched a poison gas attack on the Iraqi Kurdish village of Halabja, killing 5000 people. While that attack is today being touted by senior US officials as one of the main reasons why Hussein must now be ?taken out?, at the time Washington's response to the atrocity was much more relaxed.

Just four months later, Washington stood by as the US giant Bechtel corporation won the contract to build a huge petrochemical plant that would give the Hussein regime the capacity to generate chemical weapons.

On September 8, 1988, the US Senate passed the Prevention of Genocide Act, which would have imposed sanctions on the Hussein regime. Immediately, the Reagan administration announced its opposition to the bill, calling it ?premature?. The White House used its influence to stall the bill in the House of Representatives. When Congress did eventually pass the bill, the White House did not implement it.

Washington's political, military and economic sweetheart deals with the Iraqi dictator came under even more stress when, in August 1989, FBI agents raided the Atlanta branch of the Rome-based Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) and uncovered massive fraud involving the CCC loan guarantee scheme and billions of dollars worth of unauthorised ?off-the-books? loans to Iraq.

BNL Atlanta manager Chris Drougal had used the CCC program to underwrite programs that had nothing to do with agricultural exports. Using this covert set-up, Hussein's regime tried to buy the most hard-to-get components for its nuclear weapons and missile programs on the black market.

Russ Baker, writing in the March/April 1993 Columbia Journalism Review, noted: ?Elements of the US government almost certainly knew that Drougal was funnelling US-backed loans ? into dual-use technology and outright military technology. The British government was fully aware of the operations of Matrix-Churchill, a British firm with an Ohio branch, which was not only at the centre of the Iraqi procurement network but was also funded by BNL Atlanta... It would be later alleged by bank executives that the Italian government, long a close US ally as well as BNL's ultimate owner, had knowledge of BNL's loan diversions.?

Yet, even the public outrage generated by the Halabja massacre and the widening BNL scandal did not cool Washington's ardour towards Hussein's Iraq.

In November 1989, Bush senior approved $1 billion in loan guarantees for Iraq in 1990. In April 1990, more revelations about the BNL scandal had again pushed the department of agriculture to the verge of halting Iraq's CCC loan guarantees. On May 18, national security adviser Scowcroft personally intervened to ensure the delivery of the first $500 million tranche of the CCC subsidy for 1990.

According to Frantz and Waas' February 23, 1992, LA Times article, in July 1990 ?officials at the National Security Council and the State Department were pushing to deliver the second installment of the $1 billion in loan guarantees, despite the looming crisis in the region and evidence that Iraq had used the aid illegally to help finance a secret arms procurement network to obtain technology for its nuclear weapons and ballistic-missile program?.

From July 18 to August 1, 1990, Bush senior's administration approved $4.8 million in advanced technology sales to Iraq. The end-users included Saad 16 and the Iraqi ministry of industry and military industrialisation. On August 1, $695,000 worth of advanced data transmission devices were approved.

?Only on August 2, 1990, did the agriculture department officially suspend the [CCC loan] guarantees to Iraq ? the same day that Hussein's tanks and troops swept into Kuwait?, noted Frantz and Waas.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/506/506p12.htm

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314482 -

To clarify (as you finally quoted at the end of your post), it actually says "estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."

read carefully. that number refers to only their tactical arms. that is in addition to their strategic arms. the link says this about russia's nuclear weapons:

"Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 5,000 (active)

Non-strategic (tactical) Nuclear Weapons: ~3,400 (active)
Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)

Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)"

8,400 active weapons and 11,000 in reserve. that would mean almost 20,000.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314519 -

So why is the US listed as having more nuclear weapons that anyone else at the top of the page?

And if you had "read carefully" you would have explored the site and found where it states:

10,729: Total number of intact U.S. nuclear warheads (274 warheads are awaiting dismantlement)

7,000: Approximate number of operational strategic U.S. nuclear weapons

3,500: Approximate number of strategic U.S. nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.


8,400: Total number of operational nuclear warheads in Russian arsenal

5,000: Approximate number of Russian strategic nuclear weapons

3,000: Approximate number of strategic Russian nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.

128,000+: Estimated number of nuclear warheads built worldwide since 1945. All but 2 percent of these nuclear warheads have been built by the United States (55 percent or 70,000+) and Russia (43 percent or 55,000+).




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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314536 -

because the in the numbers at the top of the page, america's inactive arms are included in the count, while russia's are not. do the math.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314553 -

Have you pointed this out to the CDI?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314574 -

Have you pointed this out to the CDI?

i just sent them this email:

i'm trying to find a definitive answer to the question of which nation possesses
the most nuclear arms. the information at your website on this page:
http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia seems to
contradict itself.

it says in the summary at the top of the page that russia has a nuclear force of
~10,000 nuclear weapons, and the united states has 10,656. then in the details,
it says that russia has a total of approximately 8,400 active weapons and
11,000 inactive ones (for a total of about 19,400, correct?), while the united
states has 10,455 total nuclear weapons (both inactive and active). why the
discrepancy?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314577 -

i'll post their response when i get it.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314584 -

And what about this info from the site?

10,729: Total number of intact U.S. nuclear warheads (274 warheads are awaiting dismantlement)

7,000: Approximate number of operational strategic U.S. nuclear weapons

3,500: Approximate number of strategic U.S. nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.


8,400: Total number of operational nuclear warheads in Russian arsenal

5,000: Approximate number of Russian strategic nuclear weapons

3,000: Approximate number of strategic Russian nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.

128,000+: Estimated number of nuclear warheads built worldwide since 1945. All but 2 percent of these nuclear warheads have been built by the United States (55 percent or 70,000+) and Russia (43 percent or 55,000+).

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314638 -

because different terminology is used when referring to russia's total nuclear arms ("operational" vs. "intact"), i can't really make anything of that. what is "operational"? hopefully it can be clarified when i get a response from them.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314675 -

Well we've got another source here mush. Same result tho - US way in front.

Can you find any sources that say Russia has more than America?

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/mj03nukenote.html

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/ja03nukenote.html

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314711 -

Well we've got another source here mush.

those numbers at the bottom on the russian page only include strategic arms.

from the second link, referring to russian nuclear arms:

"Based on the best available information, we estimate that the total current arsenal of intact warheads is around 18,000. Of those, some 8,250 are considered active and operational; the rest occupy an indeterminate status."

according to the first link, the total number of US nuclear arms (including both strategic and non-strategic weapons) is ~7,650.

Same result tho - US way in front.

well... you're half right.

Can you find any sources that say Russia has more than America?

why should i do that when you're finding them for me?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314739 -

mushmaster said:
the link says that the united states has a total of 10,455 nuclear weapons, 7,800 of which are actively deployed, and russia has 8,400 actively deployed, with 10,000-15,000 in reserve.



do you really think the US will be honest about it's capabilities...not ever..


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #2314809 -

do you really think the Russians will be honest about it's capabilities...not ever..


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2315694 -

I hear the Martian rover is looking for the WMD and for Osama.

hehehehehe.

mjshroomer

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2316445 -

The way you're interpreting this information to your own ends is amazing mush. You should apply for a job in Bush's admin.

You honestly believe that those two sources support your position that Russia has more nuclear weapons than the US?  :rolleyes:

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2316450 -

I hear the Martian rover is looking for the WMD and for Osama.

Well luvdemlies needs it proved they arn't on mars before he'll accept George Bush isn't right. He has constantly played dodgeball when asked what evidence he would accept that WMD arn't there. I gave up after he refused to accept excavation to the earths core of the entire surface of the planet would not necessarily prove his hero George Bush was wrong.

Perhaps Saddam invented a time machine and hid the WMD in another time...no doubt luv would want it "proved" that he didn't.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2316508 -

Looks like the russians sold bin laden a few nukes. We used bin laden against them, now they use him against us. peace

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/392006.html

Last Update: 09/02/2004 05:06

Report: Al-Qaida has obtained tactical nuclear explosives

By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service



Al-Qaida have possessed tactical nuclear weapons for about six years, the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper reported Sunday

The Arabic daily reported that sources close to Al-Qaida said Osama bin Laden's group bought the nuclear weapons from Ukrainian scientists who were visiting Kandahar, Afghanistan, in 1998.

The report has not been confirmed.

However, the sources said Al-Qaida doesn't intend to use the weapons against American forces in Muslim countries, "due to the serious damage" it could cause. But that decision is subject to change, the sources said, if Al-Qaida "is dealt a serious blow that won't leave it any room to maneuver."

The possibility of detonating the nuclear devices on American soil was also raised in the report, although no details were given.

The sources were quoted as saying that Al-Qaida actvists have hidden the weapons - each of which is about the size of a suitcase - in "a safe place."

Kandahar was the stronghold of the Taliban, which kept Afghanistan under tight religious restrictions until the United States attacked it in retaliation for the September 2001 attacks.

In the years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, serious concern arose in the West over the possibility that nuclear technology and weapons could spread to other groups, in part due to the difficult economic situation in the former communist lands. Several reports of the nuclear arsenal in the former Soviet Union in the 1990s indicated that a few dozen nuclear explosive devices had disappeared. One of the theories was that the devices disappeared in Ukraine, which claims that it handed over all its nuclear weapons to Russia.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2316669 -

GazzBut writes:

Id like to see a source that confirms that France etc loaned more than the US, especially during the 80's.

Do a web search. There have been dozens of articles in the media in the last few months describing proposals for debt relief for Iraq. Most of them list the amounts owed to varying countries. Russia, France, and Germany will be the ones most affected by debt forgiveness. That's why they were resisting the proposals so strenuously. The US is the country least affected, which is why these countries claim the US is being unfair in pushing the proposals.

This isn't secret stuff, Gazz... it's been all over the media. I realize you may not find economic news articles as interesting as I do, which is why you probably missed them, but that's the beauty of Google. You can look stuff up.

But even if they did, so what? The US was definitely the only country to tell lies to use as an excuse to attack Iraq.

Try to make at least a half-hearted attempt to stay on topic. I'm not discussing whether or not it was correct to depose Hussein, I'm stating that afoaf's claim that the US sold Iraq WMDs is erroneous.

You can try and rewrite history all you like but the simple facts remanin: The US loaned Iraq millions of dollars ...

And the simple fact remains that other countries loaned Iraq billions. A heck of a lot more than the US ever did.

...and sold Iraq the ingredients for WMDs.

Which is not the same as selling him WMDs. What part of that concept are you having difficulty grasping?

Besides, dozens of other countries (including even Sweden) sold him "ingredients" for WMDs as well. Alex's cut and paste job in this very thread list just a few of the countries who did. Surprise, surprise -- France and Germany are on the list.

To be honest I find your posistion to be so far from the truth that it is actually offensive.

You of course have the right to be offended by facts. I have the right to be amused by your inability to grasp facts.

Grow a brain Pinky. What other uses, other than the production of WMDs would somebody have for Bacillus Anthracis and Clostridium Botulinum?

So every medical school and veterinary college in the world is producing WMDs? Have you notified Reuters of this earth-shattering news?

Thats not going very far down the chemical chain at all.

Try to grasp the difference between chemicals and bacteria. You may wish to review your notes from school.

pinky


--------------------

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Iraq's imports of chlorine under the sanction regulations [Re: Phred]
    #2316717 -

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/fallujah_2.htm Iraq chlorine imports

Of the 15 million kg of chlorine imported under the UN Oil-for-Food Program since 1997, Baghdad used only 10 million kg and has 5 million kg in stock, suggesting that some domestically produced chlorine has been diverted to such proscribed activities as CW agent production.

http://www.mideastfacts.com/schneider_sanction_03032001.html tracking of Iraqi chlorine imports

Under U.N. sanctions, UNICEF envoys must ensure that chlorine gas and other commodities arriving in Iraq are used for civilian purposes only. Critical to the supply of clean water but listed under sanctions rules as a "dual use" item with potential military applications, chlorine is tracked canister by canister by an agency more commonly identified with promoting vaccinations.

"We observe them all arrive; hard count every one; follow them to government warehouses, and then to end use," said Pierrette Vu Thi, the UNICEF program coordinator in Iraq. "We track every single cylinder."

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2001/msg00439.html still more on Iraqi chlorine imports

Hi Tim and others,

You ask:

Can anyone confirm [that chlorine imports have been
blocked by the Sanctions Committee] and refer me to
details?

I don't have evidence of this (in part perhaps due to
the secretive operation of the 661 Committee), so
don't know whether and to what extent chlorine imports
have been blocked.

What I do know is that, since the early stages of "oil
for food", provisions have been made to import
chlorine to Iraq. The 90 day report for Phase II of
in 180 day phases; the UN Secretary-General issues a
report every 90 days, therefore at the half way point
and end point of each phase) is available at:

http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/reports/1997/s1997685.htm

You will see that paragraphs 19 and 37 of this report
(dated 4 September 1997) mention expected arrival of
chlorine and protocols developed for tracking it in
Iraq. (A complete list of Secretary-General's report
can be found at

http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/info/un.html)

More recently, I have heard from a member of Unmovic,
the new UN weapons inspectors, that there has been
debate about removing chlorine gas from the "1051
lists" of potentially dual-use items. His explanation
was that there is so much chlorine being imported into
Iraq that (i) it takes up one and a half staff
people's time just to file the applications; (ii) most
of the sites receiving chlorine in Iraq (c. 900?) are
then never inspected; and (iii) the chlorine tracking
protocol has never worked anyhow.

This doesn't answer the question of whether there is
enough chlorine in Iraq, whether due to imports or
domestic production. I don't have an answer to that.
Conversations with UN and NGO staff that I had in
Baghdad in December did suggest that the main problem
with, say, delivering clean drinking water was NOT the
problem of purifying it in a plant: that was
reasonably easy. Problems arose because (i) the staff
couldn't afford to be at work to maintain and use the
plant properly; (ii) the distribution system was badly
damaged, etc. (I don't recall my clothes smelling of
diesel, but don't have enough experience to know
whether my experience is typical. I do know that our
hotel would clean its floors with some form of petrol
product.)

I hope that this is of some help.

Best,


Colin Rowat
274 Vanderbilt Ave., #2
Brooklyn NY 11205
USA

Clearly, multiple sources confirm my assertion that Iraq could and did import chlorine through the Oil for Food program.

Of course, they could make their own easily enough if they chose to. At least one of the above links mentions Iraq's domestic production of chlorine. It is simplicity itself to produce chlorine by passing an electrical current through salt water. I remember clearly doing that very thing in chemistry class in high school.

And yes, I realize that the fact that Iraq imported chlorine has nothing to do with the fact that the US provided no WMDs to Iraq. Not trying to derail the thread, just showing that when I said Iraq imported chlorine I could back up my statement.

pinky


--------------------

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2316761 -

Quote:
Well luvdemlies needs it proved they arn't on mars before he'll accept George Bush isn't right. He has constantly played dodgeball when asked what evidence he would accept that WMD arn't there.


Does your dishonesty never end?

I asked you to show me where I ever claimed or insisted they do exist. I'm still waiting.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2317204 -

The way you're interpreting this information to your own ends is amazing mush.

please alex. all i've done is directly quote the sources. please tell me why my interpretation of the information is faulty. be specific.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2317341 -

Because on each list it gives a number for nuclear weapons by country. The US heads the list on both sources.

Why do you think they have done this? Why havn't they followed your reasoning and put "18,000" under the Russian column? Are they really that stupid they don't know what they're doing while some kid on a shroom board does?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2317422 -

Because on each list it gives a number for nuclear weapons by country. The US heads the list on both sources.

the US heads the list on the summary at the CDI site. however, in the details, it says that russia actually has more. there is a discrepency, and i'm pretty sure it's because russia's "non-active" weapons are not included in the count at the top of the page, while those of the united states are. at least that's what is suggested by simple math. i've emailed them on the matter, and hopefully there will be a response soon.

the bulletin of the atomic scientists source does not support your claims at all. like i said (and you can verify this yourself), the list of american arms includes all nuclear weapons, while the russian index includes only strategic arms, and in the text, the writer, referring to russian arms, states that "Based on the best available information, we estimate that the total current arsenal of intact warheads is around 18,000.", which is far more nuclear weapons than the US possesses.

there is a discrepency in the first source (CDI) between the numbers in the summary and the numbers in the details. i've emailed them about it. as far as the bulletin of the atomic scientists... it in every way supports the idea that russia has more nuclear weapons than the united states.

Why do you think they have done this? Why havn't they followed your reasoning and put "18,000" under the Russian column? Are they really that stupid they don't know what they're doing while some kid on a shroom board does?

i've emailed them about it. we'll see what they say.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2318299 -

Still waiting PinocchiALPO.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2318355 -

Exclusive: Blix Backed Bush on WMD
Stewart Stogel, NewsMax.com
Tuesday, Feb. 10, 2004
Documents Show That U.N. Inspector Believed Saddam Was Hiding Secret Weapons
UNITED NATIONS ? U.N. chief Iraq arms inspector Dr. Hans Blix believed that Baghdad may have been hiding as much as 10,000 liters of deadly anthrax before the U.S.- and British-led coalition invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

According to experts, if properly weaponized, that amount of anthrax could neutralize a city the size of New York.

The admission by Blix was found in a private report sent to the UNMOVIC (U.N. Monitoring, Observation and Verification Commission) College of Commissioners just weeks before the invasion. The college is the U.N. body's executive board.

In his report Blix said that he had a "strong suspicion" that Iraq "is hiding" as much as 10,000 liters of the exotic poison.

The private proclamation went further than Blix's public statements where he insisted that weapons Baghdad could not account for was not proof they existed and were hidden.

A senior official at the French foreign ministry in Paris told NewsMax that he was aware of the assertion by Blix and believed it was made "under pressure from Washington."

On Thursday, CIA Director George Tenet told an audience at Georgetown University that his agency's assessment on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was shared by numerous intelligence agencies other than the CIA.

Blix's report would seem to corroborate the Tenet claim.

Former U.N. chief arms inspector Rolf Ekeus had explained that anthrax is one form of WMD that is easily hidden and stored.

"In a spore form you can hide it in a cool cellar and perhaps keep it for as long as 15 years," Ekeus proclaimed.

Ekeus went on to explain that in such a form, anthrax is fairly safe and would be difficult for arms inspectors to track down.

"You can store it in a person's home. How can we search every home in Iraq?" Ekeus once asked.

In his speech, Tenet took exception with the claim made by the United States' recently departed Iraq arms hunter David Kay that the Iraq Survey Group, which has not found WMD, had completed "85 percent" of its work.

Tenet told the Georgetown audience that the Iraq group "has nowhere even close to completing 85 percent of its work."

Kay's successor, former deputy chief U.N. Iraq arms inspector Charles Duelfer, is expected to take up his new duties in Baghdad this week.

Based on statements by Blix and his predecessor Rolf Ekeus, Tenet's claims may be accurate, in a strict technical sense.

Questioned by NewsMax, Blix explained from his home in Stockholm, Sweden:

"We [the U.N.] had strong suspicions that some anthrax was still hidden, but we did not find the evidence to assert its existence."

The U.N. and the International Atomic Energy Agency (the U.N.'s atomic watchdog) resumed Iraq inspections in December 2003 after a four-year hiatus.

Despite three months of intensive searches, no evidence of exotic weapons surfaced, other than the existence of modified al-Samoud missiles.

The al-Samoud's were found to have violated U.N. sanctions and were being destroyed by Iraq (under U.N. supervision) leading up to the coalition's invasion.

Blix pointed out that all U.N. inspections and arms control operations ceased when the coalition invaded Iraq.

Since then, intelligence from Washington and London to the U.N. has virtually ceased.

Blix retired from his post in July 2003 convinced that the U.N. would not be permitted to resume its inspections under a Security Council mandate.

The future of UNMOVIC has remained in limbo since Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The United States' U.N. ambassador, John Negroponte, told reporters that the future of UNMOVIC "will be revisited at a future date." The ambassador refused to give a time table for the "revisit."

Blix is expected to tell his side of the search for Iraq's secret weapons in a book due to be released next month.

Link


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2318749 -

that book will surely be interesting...

seems like everyone's writing one these days.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2320888 -

Ok mush, I can see there's no reasoning with you on this one.

btw, if Russia had headed the list in both of those sources instead of the US would you have argued it so vociferously?

Based on the best available information, we estimate that the total current arsenal of intact warheads is around 18,000.", which is far more nuclear weapons than the US possesses.

But only 8600 are operational.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2320999 -

Ok mush, I can see there's no reasoning with you on this one.

feel free to start any time.

btw, if Russia had headed the list in both of those sources instead of the US would you have argued it so vociferously?

huh?

the US only heads up the list in one of the sources and only in the top summary, which is contradicted in the details. as for the other source, it shows that russia is ahead by a large margin. have you sunken to outright lies, do you just have trouble reading?

i don't know what you're trying to say here, but i should make it clear that i really have no personal stock in russia having more nuclear arms than the US. i am not arguing this for my "own ends". personally, i really couldn't care less if the united states did indeed have the world's largest nuclear stockpile. it wouldn't matter to me. i have a feeling that before very long, russia will destroy more of its nuclear weapons and the US will have the largest nuclear weapons stockpile. when that day comes, it will be no problem for me to see that. my world view will not come crashing down around me. that day hasn't come yet, and until then, russia, not the US, has the world's largest nuclear weapons stockpile.

But only 8600 are operational.

yes, but the others still exist. they are stockpiled, mothballed, and many are awaiting dismantlement. they still exist and could still be rendered "operational" if the russians wanted...if you only want to talk about actively deployed weapons, you should have clarified that from the beginning, though even in that case, russia still leads, because the US has got only 7,800 of those.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2321587 -

Quote:
have you sunken to outright lies


You just now noticed that?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2323652 -

List of countries in order of number of deployed weapons:

United States - 10,450
Russia - 8,400
China - 400
France - 350
United Kingdom - 200
India - 60-90
Pakistan - 24-48

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2323752 -

"deployed"

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2323844 -

wikipedia sometimes isn't the greatest source either.

"Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia that is being written collaboratively by contributors from all around the world. The site is a WikiWiki, meaning that anyone, including you, can edit any article right now by clicking on the edit this page link that appears in every Wikipedia article except for a few protected pages."

anyone can submit entries to wikipedia or edit the content. for example, i've just now corrected the entry and it now says 7,800 for total number of nuclear weapons actively deployed by the US. it also now includes weapons deployed by israel.

"List of countries in order of number of deployed weapons

* United States - 7,800
* Russia - 8,400
* China - 400
* France - 350
* Israel - 100-200
* United Kingdom - 200
* India - 60-90
* Pakistan - 24-48 "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons

for the record, before i did this, i checked the original source used to get the numbers. the original number was derived from subtracting the number of US warheads awaiting dismantlement from the total inventory. just as with the russians however, not all of our weapons not awaiting dismantlement are actively deployed. some are on inactive status (2655 of them to be exact). i've cited the CDI site as a source for the info i've put in the wikipedia entry.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2324663 -

i've cited the CDI site as a source for the info i've put in the wikipedia entry.

The source that estimates the total suspected Russian arsenal at 10,000 with the US on 10656?  :smirk:

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2325031 -

the CDI says that the russians have 8,400 active nukes while the US has 7,800.

note that it says "deployed weapons" in the wikipedia entry.

i see that you've changed the entry and that it now contains a false number inconsistant with the source cited. have you no integrity at all?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2325105 -

Quote:
have you no integrity at all?


:lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2326223 -

the CDI says that the russians have 8,400 active nukes while the US has 7,800

The CDI says the total suspected nuclear arms of Russia is approx 10,000 while that of America is 10656.

Do you dispute that America has more strategic nuclear weapons than Russia?

i see that you've changed the entry and that it now contains a false number inconsistant with the source cited. have you no integrity at all?

Don't be fucking ludicrous mush. I've got better things to do than chase you around changing wiki entries for christssakes.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2326851 -

The CDI says the total suspected nuclear arms of Russia is approx 10,000 while that of America is 10656.

1. it says that in one place (the summary at the top of the page). in the details, it says that the russians have 15,000-20,000 nuclear weapons, and later in the details, it says they've got 19,400. what you have found is a single datum in support of your assertions. thought it is contradicted by every other source available, including the very source it appears in, you are adhering to it like gospel to the exclusion of all contradicting data.

"Russia is currently estimated to have about 5,000 strategic nuclear warheads plus 3,400 tactical nuclear weapons. It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement"

"Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)
Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)"

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia

2. the wikipedia entry specifically refers to "deployed weapons". nowhere in the source currently cited is data available for "deployed weapons". this data is actually available at the CDI source, which is the data i used and the source i cited when i editted the entry.

Do you dispute that America has more strategic nuclear weapons than Russia?

no alex, i don't. the US has got more strategic nuclear weapons than russia. that is what the sources say. we are talking about total nuclear weapons. not just strategic ones, and not just ones that aren't waiting to be scrapped. russia has got more total nuclear weapons than the US. that is what the sources say.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2327418 -

Quote:
what you have found is a single datum in support of your assertions.


S.O.P.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2329038 -

it says that in one place (the summary at the top of the page).

Pretty important place to put it isn't it? Why do you think they put it there? What figure would you use to put in the summary if you were putting together a summary table? The most accurate you had?

no alex, i don't. the US has got more strategic nuclear weapons than russia.

And you do know what the primary purpose of strategic nuclear weapons is as opposed to tactical? And how that relates to the definition of WMD?

As Robin Cook (ex-Foreign Office minister) stated: A weapon of mass destruction in normal speech is a device capable of being delivered over a long distance and exterminating a strategic target such as a capital city.

we are talking about total nuclear weapons.

Actually Shroomism's original premise was who had the most WMD.

i see that you've changed the entry and that it now contains a false number inconsistant with the source cited. have you no integrity at all?

Waste of time asking I know, but will there be any apology for this bullshit?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2329110 -

Pretty important place to put it isn't it. Why do you think they put it there? What figure would you use to put in the summary if you were putting together a summary table? The most accurate you had?

people make mistakes alex. something might be put in the site which is not true. when the information is contradicted by all other available sources, including information on the same page it appears in, a person with some intellectual honesty would question the viability of that information.

here's a good example (from the CDI website no less). if you click on this link:

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/rusnukes.html#tu95hbear

you are taken to a page which details each of the items in russia's nuclear arsenal. the description of the Tu-95 Bear bomber has this picture next to it:



check it out.

now... although the source says that this is a Tu-95, that doesn't make it a Tu-95. i can look to many other sources and see that a Tu-95 actually looks like this:



i wouldn't go on insisting that the first image was a Tu-95 just because the source said so. perhaps it was mistaken. in light of the fact that every other source contradicted it, that would certainly be a strong possibility. in fact, it turns out that the first image is indeed not a photo of a Tu-95, but an F-16.

And you do know what the primary purpose of strategic nuclear weapons is as opposed to tactical? And how that relates to the definition of WMD?

you asked me which countries had more nuclear weapons. my response was russia. if you only wanted to know about strategic weapons then you should have said so.

Actually Shroomism's original premise was who had the most WMD.

correct, and when i disputed that, i was asked which country had the most nuclear weapons, to which i replied "russia", because it does. if you want to concede that russia does have the most nuclear weapons, and continue the discussion from there, let's move on.

Waste of time I know, but will there be any apology for this bullshit?

i'm sorry for implying that you changed the entry. i thought that you did.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2329123 -

people make mistakes alex

Indeed. And who do you think is most likely to make a mistake on this? The CDI's conclusion or a kid on a shroom board who first started trying to grasp this topic when I posted the link a few days ago?

correct

So we can agree we've at least cleared up which country has the most WMD. At least that's settled.

i'm sorry for implying that you changed the entry. i thought that you did.

Cheers mush  :smile2:

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2329131 -

Indeed. And who do you think is most likely to make a mistake on this? The CDI's conclusion or a kid on a shroom board who first started trying to grasp this topic when I posted the link a few days ago?

appeal to authority. is the first image a Tu-95 or an F-16? i mean... i say it's an F-16, but i'm just a kid on a 'shroom board, so what do i know?

So we can agree we've at least cleared up which country has the most WMD. At least that's settled.

no, we've settled the fact that the US has the most strategic nuclear weapons.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2329206 -

i think all of this talk about nukes has been distracting. a while back, shroomism claimed that the united states had more weapons of mass destruction than any other country. i asked him for a source for that info, and then i was asked who i thought had the most nuclear weapons, and then all of this.

i do not know who has the most WMD's. i'm not trying to prove that we don't. i was just curious about a source. i would suspect that the russians probably have more WMD's. i do know that the soviets were pretty heavy producers of chemical weapons, but it wouldn't surprise me if the US had more either. i really don't know. i wouldn't even think that the data is available, which is why i was curious when someone claimed that the US had the most. so back to the original question:

source?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2330085 -

appeal to authority

I don't think the CDI are "authority". They're just experts in the field. There's not really much more to say until the CDI says "Actually instead of giving the 10,000 for the suspected Russian nuclear weapons total we meant 19,000" and changes the website accordingly.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2330166 -

the single peice of evidence you are relying on is contradicted by every other source available and is even contradicted (in more than one place) in the very source in which it appears. using it to conclude that the russians have less nuclear weapons than the US is about as prudent as using this photo:



to conclude that this is what a Tu-95 looks like.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2330209 -

and is even contradicted (in more than one place) in the very source in which it appears

No mush, IN YOUR OPINION, it's contradicted. Big difference. If the CDI thought the suspected Russian nuclear weapons total was 19,000 that is what they would have included in the summary. The fact that they had access to that number and still didn't include it in the summary makes it clear they don't believe the total is 19,000.

And what are these "other sources" you talk about? Do you mean the ones I've given you?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2330294 -


No mush, IN YOUR OPINION, it's contradicted.

russia cannot simultaneously have only 10,000 warheads and 15,000-20,000 or 19,400 warheads. it's a logical contradiction. it's not a matter of opinion. the 10,000 number is contradicted by the other numbers.

The fact that they had access to those numbers and didn't include them in the summary makes it clear they don't believe the total is 19,000.

then why would they include such statements as these?

"Russia is currently estimated to have about 5,000 strategic nuclear warheads plus 3,400 tactical nuclear weapons. It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."


"Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)

Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)"

note that these two are consistant with eachother, while the one you are fond of is not.

And what are these "other sources" you talk about?

18,000 from here: http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab10.asp

15,000-20,000 from here:
http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia

18,000 from here:
http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/ja03nukenote.html

13,000-20,000 from here:
http://www.wand.org/getfacts/index/nuke-weapons.html

and on and on. i imagine that there are more. as of yet, i haven't come across a single source in all of my searching that says that the russians have 10,000 or less total nuclear weapons. how many opposing sources would it take for you to reexamine your position?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2333357 -

it's not a matter of opinion. the 10,000 number is contradicted by the other numbers.

Can you explain precisely where on the page it explains how they arrived at the 10,000 figure? Or are you just making up your own version of how they *might* have reached it?

Are you seriously expecting me to accept that after carefully putting together a page of figures when they get to the conclusion on Russia they accidentally put 10,000? And it isn't just a few hundred out, it's the best part of 10,000 out? That no-one noticed?

Don't you think that's a little unlikely? And if they are that unreliable then why on earth are you quoting figures from them to *support* your position?

It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."

I'm not too confident about high "estimates" of WMD mush. Iraq was "estimated" to have hundreds of tons of VX gas, mustard gas, Ricin, anthrax, a nuclear weapons programme. In reality of course they had precisely fuck-all. You'll understand why I'm a little leery of taking high "estimates" in this area at face value.

18,000 from here

With the best part of 10,000 awaiting dismantlement..

18,000 from here:

Of those, some 8,250 are considered active and operational; the rest occupy an indeterminate status.

13,000-20,000 from here

Jeez mush, things must be getting desperate. I never thought you'd quote a site for "Women, power and peace". There's hope for you yet!  :laugh:

WAND Education Fund educates the public and opinion leaders about the need to reduce violence and militarism in society, and redirect excessive military spending to unmet human and environmental needs.

And once again you miss out the bit that says:

Estimated totals for US and Russia warheads include those in active, operational forces as well as retired, non-deployed warheads awaiting dismantlement and weapons in reserve

15,000-20,000 from here:

What are you talking about? You have just quoted the page where it says the suspected total nuclear weapons is 10,000.

i haven't come across a single source in all of my searching that says that the russians have 10,000 or less total nuclear weapons

Go back and read the very first source I posted for you. Go to the top of the page. It says that for Russia the "Total suspected nuclear weapons ~ 10,000"

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2333968 -


Can you explain precisely where on the page it explains how they arrived at the 10,000 figure? Or are you just making up your own version of how they *might* have reached it?

i haven't the slightest idea how they reached it but it's clear that it's wrong. how do you think they reached it?

Are you seriously expecting me to accept that after carefully putting together a page of figures when they get to the conclusion on Russia they accidentally put 10,000? And it isn't just a few hundred out, it's the best part of 10,000 out? That no-one noticed?

alex, let us be very clear about one thing. they did make at least one mistake. they either made a mistake at the top of the page or they made two at the bottom. in light of the fact that every other source available says that the russians have far more than 10,000 nukes, i think it's much more likely that the mistake is at the top, not the bottom. if the top number is correct, not only did the CDI make a mistake, but also the NRDC, the bulletin of atomic scientists, and every other source that says more than 10,000, of which there are many.

Don't you think that's a little unlikely?

not as unlikely as 10,000 being right and everyone else being wrong.

And if they are that unreliable then why on earth are you quoting figures from them to *support* your position?

i don't need to quote them. personally i think that the best source of information on this matter is probably the bulletin of atomic scientists. there are many others as well. i've cited them also. how many sources support your assertions?

I'm not too confident about high "estimates" of WMD mush.

use the low estimate then. if you read carefully, you'll see that the 10,000-15,000 is only for tactical weapons. add that to their strategic weapons and you will arrive at a number much higher than 10,000.

With the best part of 10,000 awaiting dismantlement..

i was asked who had the most nuclear weapons. i responded russia, which is true. had i been asked, "who has the most nuclear weapons not currently slated to be dismantled?" then i wouldn't have said russia.

Of those, some 8,250 are considered active and operational; the rest occupy an indeterminate status.

see response above. to be perfectly fair, only 7,800 of america's nukes are on active status.

Jeez mush, things must be getting desperate. I never thought you'd quote a site for "Women, power and peace". There's hope for you yet!

they didn't find the information themselves you know. they've cited a source and you can check that out yourself.

And once again you miss out the bit that says:

Estimated totals for US and Russia warheads include those in active, operational forces as well as retired, non-deployed warheads awaiting dismantlement and weapons in reserve

no, the part i must have missed was where someone asked me only about "active, operational" nukes. i could have sworn the question was in simpler terms. maybe you can point me to where i was asked only about active, operational weapons.

What are you talking about? You have just quoted the page where it says the suspected total nuclear weapons is 10,000.

it also says what i just cited. as we've already covered, the page contains conflicting information.


Go back and read the very first source I posted for you. Go to the top of the page. It says that for Russia the "Total suspected nuclear weapons ~ 10,000"

ok, there's one, and it contradicts itself twice.

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