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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: Phred]
    #1943815 - 09/23/03 10:32 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

it was the belief of every single intelligence agency in the world, as well as the UN Security Council.





This would be the same intelligence agencies whose information led to Colin Powell and Condoleeza rice claiming, in 2001, that Iraq was effectively disarmed and that Saddam posed no threat? Oh how the story changed...

So did the intelligence agencies really believe what Bush and Co told the world? Well it has become apparent in the UK at least that only "useful" intelligence was released/changed while that which didnt strengthen the cause for war was basically disregarded.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: GazzBut]
    #1943818 - 09/23/03 10:34 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Would you care to detail these ommissions?


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1943829 - 09/23/03 10:42 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

How about the Rice and Powell claims?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1943838 - 09/23/03 10:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Well here is a link from 2001 in which Powell mentions Iraq is pretty much contained.
link


The incident Im talking about however was shown in the John Pilger documentary on ITV last night. It was footage of Powell in a press conference where he made the statements regarding containment and lack of threat.
Contrast this with what Tony Blair told Parliament a year ago: "Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction programme is active, detailed and growing.

"The policy of containment is not working. The weapons of mass destruction programme is not shut down. It is up and running now."

WTF is going on??? These people are not fit to lead us or kill in our name.



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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1943839 - 09/23/03 10:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Well here is a link from 2001 in which Powell mentions Iraq is pretty much contained.
link


The incident Im talking about however was shown in the John Pilger documentary on ITV last night. It was footage of Powell in a press conference where he made the statements regarding containment and lack of threat.
Contrast this with what Tony Blair told Parliament a year ago: "Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction programme is active, detailed and growing.

"The policy of containment is not working. The weapons of mass destruction programme is not shut down. It is up and running now."

WTF is going on??? These people are not fit to lead us or kill in our name.



--------------------
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Offlineshakta
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: GazzBut]
    #1943847 - 09/23/03 10:50 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I see your point. Iraq was thought to be contained. After the events of 9-11 the threats were reassessed obviously.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: GazzBut]
    #1943856 - 09/23/03 10:53 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Unfortunately I missed the Pilger "documentary" im sure it would have been very entertaining....

As for what Blair stated he did so based on intelligence reports, the reliability of the intelligence services does not reflect the integrity of the PM


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1943860 - 09/23/03 10:56 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly. I think that the real questions should be directed to the intelligence agencies themselves. Forget about little details that were added or removed. How the hell did none of us know he didn't really have these things if he didn't? Did his maintaining of the appearance fool them all? Saddam was a smart guy. He did have a very intricate security infrastructure.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: shakta]
    #1943912 - 09/23/03 11:22 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

How the hell did none of us know he didn't really have these things if he didn't?

Because saying he had them served Bush's purpose. There were plenty of independent experts like Scott Ritter saying Iraq had no WMD.

Incidentally, this is why no-one but Bush has ever waged a war of aggression based solely on so-called "intelligence". Because everyone knows there's a high probability it will be complete bollocks.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: GazzBut]
    #1943917 - 09/23/03 11:25 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The incident Im talking about however was shown in the John Pilger documentary on ITV last night

I taped it Gazz, I'll watch it tonight!  :smile:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1944546 - 09/23/03 02:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Blair as ever is just part of the sideshow. How did the US intelligence agencies manage to change their evaluation of Iraq in just over 12 months?

As for Pilger being "entertaining" he was indeed. You should have seen him interviewing Feith, Bolton and Kristol. He made them look like fools. The interview with Feith was terminated by a Colnel off camera when Pilger touched the sensitive subject of civilian casualties.

Just because you think Pilger is a libbie do you instantly dismiss him? He wasnt lying about Powell's statement on Iraq in 2001. The evidence was recorded for prosperity. The words came from Powell himself.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: GazzBut]
    #1944552 - 09/23/03 02:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I already explained the reason for the change in attitude.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: shakta]
    #1944576 - 09/23/03 02:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Sept 11th was a ripe opportunity for Bush Inc. to launch the radical agenda set forth in the PNAC statement that was written a decade ago.



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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: shakta]
    #1944591 - 09/23/03 02:53 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I see your point. Iraq was thought to be contained. After the events of 9-11 the threats were reassessed obviously.




You keep implying some kind of a connection.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: Edame]
    #1944621 - 09/23/03 02:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I implied no such connection. I am just saying the level of acceptable risk after 9-11 to our country became much lower.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: shakta]
    #1944653 - 09/23/03 03:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I see your point. Iraq was thought to be contained. After the events of 9-11 the threats were reassessed obviously.




Powell actually said: ""He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."

Powell went further and said that Saddam Hussein had not been able to "build his military back up or to develop weapons of mass destruction" for "the last 10 years". America, he said, had been successful in keeping him "in a box".

Two months later, Condoleezza Rice also described a weak, divided and militarily defenceless Iraq. "Saddam does not control the northern part of the country," she said. "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."

Link

Now bearing these statements in mind please explain to me how 9/11 had any bearing on the legitamacy of attacking Iraq. How did the evaluation of Iraq change so dramatically? According to the US govt, Iraq went from a weak country with no active weapons program to a country on the verge of building a nuclear bomb, who possesed chemical weapons and posed a serious threat to world security.
In light of what we now know it seems the sober assesments of Powell and Rice made in 2001 are alot closer to the truth than the near hysterical hype we were presented with by the US and UK governments prior to this war. Your arguement that the threat was reassesed after 9/11 doesnt make much sense. The main thrust of the case for war was always the WMDs. Dont forget your own President has admitted they have never found any links between Iraq and Al-qaeda. So for 9/11 to have had any efect on the threat assesment of Iraq your government would have been going to war on a hunch. Its funny how you still bring this mythical link up. They sure got that idea into alot of peoples heads without actually saying it themselves. A piece of first rate propaganda.
The only link between 9/11 and Iraq is that 9/11 gave the US govt an opportunity to take control of Iraq.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: GazzBut]
    #1944679 - 09/23/03 03:10 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Gad Damnit. You need to read slowly I guess, since you just don't get it. OUR ACCEPTABLE RISK TOLERANCE WENT DOWN AFTER 9-11. This does not mean Saddam had anything to do with it. It just means that we became less comfortable with him being in power. The same thing happened with the Saudis. Before 9-11 we pressured them to leave a group of 'dissidents' alone because of human rights worries. Now it turns out these guys are more terrorist than dissident. Our outlook on the world changed after 9-11. That does not mean I am claiming there is a link.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: shakta]
    #1944689 - 09/23/03 03:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

So you are basically caricaturing your country as an uninformed, paranoid bully of the world? Why didnt you just say so I would have agreed immediately!


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: shakta]
    #1944703 - 09/23/03 03:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Why mention Iraq and 9/11 in the same comment if you're not implying some kind of connection? There's no proof that the two had anything to do with each other, so how would that relate to such an about-face from Powell?

"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."

to

"We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more."


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Blix: Iraq had no WMD since 1991 [Re: GazzBut]
    #1944718 - 09/23/03 03:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So you are basically caricaturing your country as an uninformed, paranoid bully of the world? Why didnt you just say so I would have agreed immediately!




LAME.


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