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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection.
    #2225009 - 01/07/04 04:40 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

When i was considering the biological reactions that take place at a purely physical level when one consumes certain psychedelics - principly Psilocybin and to a lesser extent LSD/LSA - I stumbled upon an interesting argument.
Ill start by explaining hypoglycemic reactions.
Ok - everyone has a normal baseline level of blood suagr in their systems - some are as high as 6.2 others as low as 4.2 - if you've got diabetes you might get up to 12.2 - or if you suffer from reactive hypoglycemia it might get as low as 2.8. We all know what happens when it gets too high - diabetes, but lets discuss what happens when the opposite occurs.
There is a condition called reactive hypoglycemia suffered by some people - its cause is still unknown, but it may relate to genetic predisposition, naturally low levels of blood sugar, or adverse reactions to glucose.
What happens is that when these people eat sugar, their body produces enough insulin for that sugar to be metabolised out of the blood into cells at a certain rate. However, their reaction is for too long or is inappropriately high and it strips their blood of blood sugar. This causes coldness, dizzyness, mental confusion, weakness, paling of the skin, restlessness and that sick hungry feeling.
After a while the body goes into insulin shock and has to shoot off adrenaline into the blood stream to convert stored sugars in the liver back into glucose in the blood for the brain to feed on (the brain can only use glucose)
This causes severe tremors, anxiety, mental confusion, palpitations, breathlessness and a myriad of other nasty symtpoms - depending on the bodies ability to stabilise the blood sugar levels, this adrenal reaction can be short or be long lasting.
In reactive hypoglycemics this can elivated by eating foods without refined sugars and other dietary regulations and letting the body return to its balance.

NOW MY POINT:
I think that many bad trips are actually caused by a person having naturally low sugar levels. When anyone consumes Psilocybin as an example - in the first 40 minutes their blood sugar levels drop - often causing cold and weak feeling hands and feet, confusion and dizzyness, etc. Ive often noticed that everyone's faces become pale during the coming up phase.
For the average person this isnt a problem and their bodies can naturally regulate this.
But for someone with already low blood sugar, their body goes into insulin shock and shoots of adrenaline causing anxiety, restlessness, tremors, breathlessness and easily panicked states.
The brain will often try and rationalise a source for these feelings - hence a random thought will enter their mind that they react to with the adrenaline already pumping through their systems - if this is perputated by the sugar levels remaining low through the trip experience, the person may suffer severe anxiety through the entire experience.
The best way to combat this would be eat honey at the first sign of anxiety - or any other type of high sugar simple carb, or to eat large amounts of protein before the trip - to release a long and steady stream of glucose and amino acids into the blood stream throughout the entire event.


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Offlinestefan
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2225174 - 01/07/04 08:07 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

very interesting bm!

this may explain how some and not all people indeed benefit from eating sweet things when a trip starts to go bad. good thinking :thumbup:


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Offlinebluedolphin
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2225254 - 01/07/04 09:19 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

bluemeanie... excellent! This has more or less been my theory but you've put it into words so well.

Whether it be placebo or not, I've found eating sugar at the first signs of a "bad trip" (which for me is almost always caused by the symptoms of low blood sugar) always turns things around for the better rather quickly.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2225331 - 01/07/04 09:59 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have type 2 diabetes so fasting experiences are out of the equation for me.I have noticed the hypoglycemic effect also so had taken to having a beer or two during come up to balance my sugar level this worked quite well until I started getting alcohol arrythmia so now I eat and take a lil nausea as opposed to the hypoglycemic trips I have had which sucked(B/S level in the low 50s,should be 80-110,less than 50 and you could seize up)Interestingly I have monitored my B/S and B/P during a HIGH dose semillanceata trip and B/P was 80/58,pulse 38,B/S 63,ALL too low.No tachycardia at all in fact bradycardia was evident.So now I plan my trips and do not take the medications for B/P(atenolol) and B/S(glypizide) that day,have a light protein meal wait 30-45min then dose.This has kept my "numbers" near normal throughout.
I have theory that ones liver becomes "preoccupied" with the fungus and upsets the sugar/insulin feedback loop this can interfere with said system until the liver has dealt with the fungal load.At any rate I can say first hand that low B/S does not make for a relaxed enjoyable trip,it causes anxiety,muscle tremors,visual disturbances not related to the mushroom experience,and an uncomfortable physical load.
Very keen observation Bluemeanie! are you diabetic? or just insightful? either way good info for the diabetic tripper.
WR:rasta:


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OfflineGinseng
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2226382 - 01/07/04 05:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That is a very interesting and intelligent theory, however, I don't believe that bad trips are a cause of the lack of glucose going to the brain.

I think bad trips are a cause of frightning or extremely overwhelming thoughts and visions. When I was little, I got lost in the mall and at the beach. Both times, being a little old bugger, once i knew i was seperated from my parents, i felt lost and panic attacks would set it. I panicked at the thought of being lost forever and those were very scary moments for me. I sometimes experience anxiety before dosing on mushrooms or it looks as though i'll be having to get in a fight when i see certain people across the street (just the way shit is for me...).

Anxiety and panick attacks are natural reactions for humans to certain things. When you're about to die in a plane crash and your sitting in your seet, do you think you freak out because you know you're going to die and have no power over it, or because suddenly the sugar in your blood stream suddenly drops?

Loosing touch with reality and feeling confused is something that happens on shrooms, and negative thought loops can snowball out of control and prolong the anxiety and crazy feelings. Being in a different reality coupled with anxiety and a panick attack makes for a bad trip simply because of the way one perceives the situation.


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OfflineGinseng
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Ginseng]
    #2226388 - 01/07/04 05:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Also, if your theory was correct, wouldn't a person with low blood-sugar levels have a seizure or something of that nature if they ate too much and be considered an over dose?

This has never happened....

but hey, what do i know i'm just a guy that likes to trip out on shrooms!!


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OfflineGinseng
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Ginseng]
    #2226637 - 01/07/04 07:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Lol I don't think i really understood what you said about how hypoglycemic reactions work, but u kno what im saying rite?


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2226772 - 01/07/04 08:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think this a a very reasonable hypthesis. This would explain a recent experience of mine in which I had a "bad" trip in shrooms after taking them on an empty stomache. I could feel my blood sugar dropping, but I was too high to even consider fixing myself something to eat. I usually like to keep some fruit or something like that handy, but that time I didn't. Might also explain why mushroom chocolates sit better with me. They provide some of that needed sugar.


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Offlineneuro
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2226782 - 01/07/04 08:42 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Ok - everyone has a normal baseline level of blood suagr in their systems - some are as high as 6.2 others as low as 4.2 - if you've got diabetes you might get up to 12.2 - or if you suffer from reactive hypoglycemia it might get as low as 2.8. We all know what happens when it gets too high - diabetes




I was just wondering what your units are for your numbers. Because blood gluclose levels are measured in mg/dL and normal blood sugar levels range between 80 and 120 mg/dL though 130 is acceptable too.

Also there's some other stuff but my main concern is that skin pallor, sweating, coldness weakness is not only as a result of hypoglcycemic conditions.

It seems that you're trying to condense complex reactions between several systems into an easy to understand theory which, in my opinion i don't think quite describes the phenomena.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: neuro]
    #2230268 - 01/09/04 04:27 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ok - in Australia we meassure blood sugar in mm per litre. So 3.4mm/L is equivelant to 60mg/100mL.
Sure, skin pallor, sweating, coldness and weakness can be symptoms of a vast list of different conditions - as can all the symptoms of low blood sugar. Each person who suffers an attack of hypoglycema - insulin shock experiences quite different reactions.
The only way that one could compare these to the experiences had at the beginning of the mushroom trip - as our example - is if you as a person have experienced hypoglycemia and know what it feels like and then compare that to the coming up of a mushroom dose.
I measured the blood sugar levels of a friend the day after new-years while tripping on subaeruginosa and it confirmed the theory - his resting 5.9mm/L and during the period where he felt profound coldness, tingling and goose-bumps, he was measured at 4.8mm/L. I think there was also a marked decrease in his pulse and possibly blood-pressure, but of these three, only relative hypoglycemia in a person with already low blood sugar would provide singificant bodily problems.
Secondly, hypoglycemia does not cause seizures - it ccan cause a person to faint from glucose starvation of the brain and cause a myriad of other complications, but generally not seizures in the way that the above suggests.
If you do a search through this website - there is often questions about 'why did my friend passout on shrooms' or 'why does my muscles twitch during trips.'
Im not saying hypoglycemia is the be-all and end-all reason for this, but im sure that it contributes significantly.
If you have ever experienced hypoglycemia please compare your experience to the mushroom come-up - im sure you will see the similarities.

My point is that the feelings that a person feels when ther


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2230286 - 01/09/04 04:40 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think it's more likely to be purely mental. Some people have bad trips some don't. I've never had one.


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Offlinevalour
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2230338 - 01/09/04 05:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My impression is that bluemeanie is suggesting that the symptoms from the onset of hypoglycemia can push someone into having a bad trip because they're making them feel physically wrong, which messes with the way the person feels about the trip.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: valour]
    #2230506 - 01/09/04 09:06 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I catch your drift I'm just wondering how does this explain that if you say a few kind words to someone having a bad trip they'll usually improve? Kind words don't cure insulin shock.

And although certain symptoms of a trip may *sound* similar to insulin shock, they arn't really. Low blood sugar like you can experience after a prolonged hard bout of exercise is a completely different feeling to coming up on shrooms. It's a helluva lot more physically taxing.

And lots of alcohol can cause blood sugar to drop so do we know if the same people who have bad trips go into insulin shock when they drink?


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2231014 - 01/09/04 02:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This could partially explain the orange juice myth.  I've read on here many times that orange juice does NOT make your trip more positive/stronger, but in my experience, it does.  OJ is very calorically dense, and it tastes amazing, and is a cool color.  its fun to drink.  The culmination of all these things, especially the elevation of blood sugar levels after a trip-induced fast, could bring the scared tripper back to candyland :heart: :thumbup: :sun:


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OfflineMarshmallow
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2232346 - 01/10/04 12:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

thanks man its cool when u can expand your knowledge and its good to know how to know whats going on if this happens. definatley insighful and i hope this helps those who had bad trips to see if this could have been the cause. 5 mushies for u


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Marshmallow]
    #2232514 - 01/10/04 01:39 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Alex im not really trying to say that every bad trip is the result of hypoglycemia - but im sure some of them may be. The adrenal response that occurs with reactive hypoglycemia causes significant and irrational anxiety. If a person was not able to deal with this irrational anxiety, it may turns things quite nasty.
Ive certainly experienced what many might describe as irrational anxiety during the coming up on a large dosgae of mushrooms - and also more recently with my 2c-t-2 experience. I know how to deal with it, so its not a problem, but the cause could be related to the adrenal response to low blood sugar levels.
I for one have suffered significant hypoglycemic attacks - more significant than those that alcohol or exercise could induce (sustained blood sugar levels below 3.0 - 50mg for three days) and let me tell you the majority of the symptoms are mental - your brain goes into glucose starvation if there is a drop of more than 2.6 in an hour - or a drop below 3.8ish in males. The weakness, dizzyness, dissorientation, cognitive difficulties, which are all the hallmarks of the decent of blood sugar levels i have experienced were identical when consuming mushrooms - as was the sudden adrenal reaction - restlessness, irritability, tremors and breathlessness.
Since ive had the condition, i know how to quickly resolve these types of problems - and all im suggesting is that it might be interesting to test this hypothesis next time your having a nasty experience. And my nasty im typically talking about irrational anxiety - other bad trip experiences this will possibly be irrelevant too.
I would be keen to see what happened if someone else who did get irrational anxiety at the initial stages of a mushroom trip consummed three teaspoons or so of honey - the GI release enough to get them up within a minute or two.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2232727 - 01/10/04 04:58 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well you might be onto something meanie. I've very little experience with people having bad trips, if something sweet helps them it's worth a try!


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2232894 - 01/10/04 09:10 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

as always bulemeanie I have learned something :thumbup: very nice :smile:


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OfflineSJR
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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2235487 - 01/11/04 10:34 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I like the hypothesis. It seems extremely reasonable. Very possible. It's like a question in the back of my mind has been asnwered.


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Re: Bad Trips - the hypoglycemic connection. [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2238283 - 01/13/04 02:12 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That's a very interesting theory. I have a tendancy towards hypoglycemia although I don't suffer from it full out. If I don't eat enough, or leave out important food groups over an extended period of time I can get depressed, weak, shaky and twitchy. On very rare occassions I've had intense trip-outs from lack of food. At the same time I've never had a "bad" mushroom trip. This is probably because I take good care of myself before and during a trip, paying attention to my diet. I can see how shrooming would exaccerbate the unpleasant symptoms of extremely low bloodsugar, I'm lucky I have more leeway with it than full out hypoglycemics do. I can control it pretty well so long as I eat regularily, and in a balanced way.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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