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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2187892 -

Quote:
See, here's the thing. If you never wanted to know about the first time he had an affair, when you find out about this other affair, you never would know if it was his first or not, so how would you be able to tell?


In my perfect world, he would now have to come clean that he has been cheating on me, and this is not the first time.

Quote:
The thing about entering relationships like that, the thing about getting married is that you are now One. It is suspossed to be about sharing two people's lives as ONE. How could you seriously not mind if someone that you love so deeply and that is suspossed to be your other half slept with someone else, and prefer that they didn't tell you about it?


I agree about being "one". I didn't say I wouldn't mind. I think it is that I feel things so deeply (I know, I'm not the only one who feels deeply), that if my spouse cheated, it would hurt so terribly that it would end the marriage for me. Divorce is a horrible thing. It is extremely painful.

So assuming it's a one-time deal, let's don't end the marriage over it. But don't tell me, so I don't have to feel the pain.

Quote:
God, I'd think it would hurt more to never know if they had or not. I don't know, I guess I am just the type that likes to have a firm grasp on reality and not be tricked by illusions...
Peace.


I agree that I am then not going to be experiencing "reality", but it is the "reality" that I am choosing.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2187895 -

I think Swami is dead on here, people.

People always complain about how the world sucks, how there can be so much wrong in the world and how we can't all just be happy and peaceful...

People treat each other as seperate. I mean, there is obviously some seperateness, maybe the fact that we are in different bodies.... but the trouble is, we create all these barriers and illusions and make this game so fucking difficult to play that of course there are so many fucking problems...

Ever hear of the book "The Truth Machine"? It is the book about this genius who creates one... really fucking good read, by the way. I must find it again. It basically gives a walk through of the future, and anyways, he creates a device that can accurately tell with 100% accuracy whether or not someone is telling the truth.

There is a lot of tension at first, but eventually Earth becomes a highly evolved utopia. Of course, he had a shady business partner that had some old shit that needed covered up, and he tricked the guy into using stolen code from another company for the device. Then he tried blackmailing him, to put in a code that would allow him to effectively lie sucessfully... he ended up having to kill the guy and then program it so that he could lie about it...

Of course, after their exclusive contract with the government ran out, and the other companies sold theirs, he was fucked. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187902 -

Frog said:
So assuming it's a one-time deal, let's don't end the marriage over it. But don't tell me, so I don't have to feel the pain.


I can fully understand why you would want to do this, as it would be a lot of pain to have to put up with. Its still purposely remaining ignorant, and is your choice. But I think that it would be better to keep the connection and have to deal with the pain and work your way through it, and then eventually and slowly heal, instead of blowing off the very idea of oneness in order to avoid pain...

Quote:
I agree that I am then not going to be experiencing "reality", but it is the "reality" that I am choosing.


But it isn't the true reality. It is an illusion. This is why we have so many problems in the world. Too many people making their own seperate, contradicting realities... if we are ever going to find peace and coexist properly, it is going to require opening oneself fully... if you have a bad connection on your cell phone, the conversation is staticy and not very clear, is it?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2187905 -

Quote:
But it isn't the true reality. It is an illusion. This is why we have so many problems in the world. Too many people making their own seperate, contradicting realities... if we are ever going to find peace and coexist properly, it is going to require opening oneself fully... if you have a bad connection on your cell phone, the conversation is staticy and not very clear, is it?


I think I understand what you are saying. I like the analogy to the bad connection on the cell phone. If one of the parties has an affair, and the other doesn't know about it, it is an interference in the "one-ness" of the marriage. It interrupts the clear communication and harmony that should be there. Am I understanding this correctly?

Well, then, if I ever get married again, the bastard better not cheat!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187925 -

Frog said:
I think I understand what you are saying.  I like the analogy to the bad connection on the cell phone.  If one of the parties has an affair, and the other doesn't know about it, it is an interference in the "one-ness" of the marriage.  It interrupts the clear communication and harmony that should be there.  Am I understanding this correctly?

Well, then, if I ever get married again, the bastard better not cheat!


Ja, I believe you are understanding. hehe. This also applies to all relationships with everyone, as well. I mean, consider how you get along with your friends... what if everyone treated everyone with that sort of familiarity and understanding, and kept a peaceful and caring stance to all interactions?

The way to bring about change is within yourself.. your actions are changed and people pick up on this... humans are awfully influenceable, you understand. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2188057 -

In my case, if it was to be a one-time event, I would want to remain in ignorance. In fact, when I was married, I used to tell my ex that if he had an affair, and it was a one-time deal, please don't tell me. I'm pretty sure he never had an affair, but at least if he did, I'm not all fucked up over it, since I don't know about it anyways.

I bet if you were Neo, you would take the blue pill.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: chodamunky]
    #2188069 -

I remember that movie, but I don't remember what the blue pill was.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2188087 -

Frog said:
I remember that movie, but I don't remember what the blue pill was.


The choice to forget everything and live your normal life, I believe. Well, I don't remember the pill, but since it is the one he didn't take....  :nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2188104 -

Oh, well, then no, I wouldn't have taken the blue pill. Funny.

No, I just have this thing about relationships and pain. Out in the world, I can take a lot of schitt. I give a lot of schitt. I do a lot of things that most people probably wouldn't do. My life is kind of unpredictable in many ways.

However, in my personal life, I need order and stability. I don't like to fight. I like structure, and peace, and people doing the right thing.

I would hope that I would choose to marry someone who wouldn't 'accidentally' have an affair, ever. But if he did, I would just prefer not to know.

Well, of course, now I guess I have to know, since fireworks_god said so, but I would prefer not to.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2188105 -

Morpheus offered Neo two pills, one blue, one red. The red pill lead Neo to the truth that the world he lives in is a lie, in the beginning, this seemed to be a bad choice because he lost everything, but if u watched the rest of the trilogy, you see his choice was the best thing that he could have ever done. If he took the blue pill, he would never be told what the truth is and he would continue to live in ignorance. I am saying that you are choosing ignorance over truth because you want to remain secure in your relationships for whatever reason, it seems to be working out for you and you wanna keep it that way.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: chodamunky]
    #2188112 -

Quote:
I am saying that you are choosing ignorance over truth because you want to remain secure in your relationships for whatever reason, it seems to be working out for you and you wanna keep it that way.


I think you might be over-generalizing. I don't choose ignorance over truth except in one area: Having affairs. And not "affairs", but just one single affair.

Did you not read any of my other posts? Or did you not understand what I was talking about in those posts?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2188139 -

Frog said:
Well, of course, now I guess I have to know, since fireworks_god said so, but I would prefer not to.


:thumbup: :grin:

"Prefer" is a valuable word, my friend. Preferences are the way to a sucessful and fufilling life. It definitely beats those addictions... hehe.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2188193 -

Frog said:
However, in my personal life, I need order and stability. I don't like to fight. I like structure, and peace, and people doing the right thing.



I agree that you are a blue pill, here's why:

Neo took the red pill. down the rabbit hole he goes. He wakes up with cybernetic implants and a mechanical inspector eyeing him. He has lost his ordered life with rules, structure, ignorant bliss, and all the other blue pills "doing the right thing."

He is trained in a world where all he can do is fight against the establishment.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2188194 -

I think you might be over-generalizing. I don't choose ignorance over truth except in one area: Having affairs. And not "affairs", but just one single affair.

My analogy to the Matrix is quite fitting to your situation, you choose ignorance when it comes to your man cheating on you, because the truth would radically alter your reality (ie your relationship to him, your feelings, your actions, etc) Ok, imagine this scenario (I will keep this going with the matrix theme for shits and giggles  :smile:)

You come home one day and see your man sitting in a red leather chair wearing sun glasses. Confused, you sit on the chair opposite of him and notice a glass of water on the little table between you. He says "Honey, I have cheated on you with the woman in the red dress. You can take the red pill: we have a big fight, we argue, we may or may not come to an agreement, the future of our relationship is uncertain. OR: you take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and our blissful life continues though you know I may have cheated on you because you gave me permission. (by not wanting to know that he cheated you are actually giving him more reason to cheat that one time because there will be no consequences). But hey, it's your life, do what you like right?

Which pill do you choose, red or blue??? 

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: chodamunky]
    #2188614 -

Quote:
Recalcitrant: I agree that you are a blue pill,


LOL!!! Yes, I am a blue pill, but for other reasons.

Quote:
Chodamunky: My analogy to the Matrix is quite fitting to your situation, you choose ignorance when it comes to your man cheating on you, because the truth would radically alter your reality (ie your relationship to him, your feelings, your actions, etc


But just for that one time!!! Okay, look, fireworks_god has already jumped on me for my way of thinking, and I understand now why it's better to know.

But assuming for a sec that I am still maintaining my position, I'm talking about one indiscretion! Not a series of affairs!

Quote:
Which pill do you choose, red or blue???


Red, of course. You guys aren't getting my point. Hmmm.

If I already know something, of course I want to continue to know it. But if it is one affair, and he was never going to do it again, why do I need to know?

Fireworks showed my why it's important to know. If it weren't for his reasoning, I would still maintain my position.

You two haven't shown me anything in your statements, except that I'm a blue pill. (hehe)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2188683 -

ooo good questions wish I had visited this post before heh

"When do you lie?"

a lie is a lie. can't really say now you have to ask youself, do you ever feel the NEED to lie???  if you do then you need to evaluate yourself because that goes along the lines of saying that lying is ok.  you need to be impeccable with your word.

this means without sin to you or the other person.  why be impeccable with your word?  well how powerful is it??  we express our will, our intent, our love and our faith and many more things through our word.  we use our word to describe ourselves and to define ourselves.  it real deal makes us who we are.

for example, if you are playing the guitar :smile: and you are being taught by someone, and they say that you suck at it.  you may believe this person. when you describe yourself to others you may say that you aren't a guitar player.  you may never even try as hard as you may beforehand.  why?? because a person was lying to you.  they said you suck, when in fact you really don't know until you try for a while.  it's all about the effect the lie has on you. 

we communicate this way so much.  it's how we feel close to each other sometimes.  gossip for example!!!! msot gossip is opinions and this comes from your ego. we have joy at seeing others suffer. when you don't lie, you say what you actually mean.  you further truth and love. 

and besides when you lie you only hurt yourself and the other person, but mostly yourself at first. because when you lie, the other person is going to hate you for it.  and when you lie to yourself you make false agreements that aren't true.  this is where assumption comes into play!


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2189294 -

I lie everyday. George Castanza is my hero.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: ]
    #2189554 -

Ok, where to start.  Wish I had started reading this thread earlier.

Swami says: "Contrary to popular opinion, guilt is not the product of moral consciousness, but is a trick to stay stuck in self-defeating behaviors. Does guilt work as a mechanism for change? Never! Only awareness works."

Guilt is in fact a very productive and necessary mechanism for change.  It's biologically essential for our survival and evolution.  It prevents us from betraying and destroying those with whom we have a close tie.  Imagine the effect of a guilt free brain in a band of primative humans who had only each other to depend on.  They'd wipe each other out with a fucking quickness.

Also, this constantly dealing in absolutes really irritates me.  I refuse to accpet that it is ALWAYS wrong to lie, as I refuse also that it is always wrong to kill or steal.  Here's an example.  Let's say one night I'm walking down the street and I hear gunfire in a nearby building.  Then a man stumbles out the front door bleeding and running like a bastard.  As he ducks down an alley, another man runs out of the building, holding a pistol and also running like a bastard.  He sees me and asks "Where did he go?" At this point, the proper, right and indisputably MORAL thing to do is lie through my fucking teeth.  By using my fear and guilt, which are so detested by Swami, :wink: namely the fear for another's life and my implicit guilt in his death if I tell the thruth, I will point down the wrong alley, telling a baldfaced lie in the process and doing a truly good deed.

This is an extreme example, but I use it simply to show how silly it is to say that there can be any such thing as a moral absolute.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Shizpow]
    #2189569 -

Shizpow said:
Let's say one night I'm walking down the street and I hear gunfire in a nearby building.  Then a man stumbles out the front door bleeding and running like a bastard.  As he ducks down an alley, another man runs out of the building, holding a pistol and also running like a bastard.  He sees me and asks "Where did he go?" At this point, the proper, right and indisputably MORAL thing to do is lie through my fucking teeth.  By using my fear and guilt, which are so detested by Swami, :wink: namely the fear for another's life and my implicit guilt in his death if I tell the thruth, I will point down the wrong alley, telling a baldfaced lie in the process and doing a truly good deed.


And thusly, the most wanted child rapist and grandma beater with strong Mob ties in the history of the nation evades the undercover FBI agent who had been following him for months, whose cover was now blown and would soon be executed by the Mafia... we will assume that the man who was shot soon repays you by starting fire to your house and raping your children.

:devil:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2189586 -

Ok...your mom runs out of the building bleeding, and John Ashcroft is chasing after her with a gun accompanied by the spirits of Hitler and Pol Pot. Happy? Or would you show them exactly where your wounded mom had run off to, in the holy name of absolute truth and good morals?

But yeah, good point...you can never fuckin tell. Which is why I say all you can do is rely on your observations and interpreation of events as an admittedly falible human being and hope you're doing the right thing, which sometimes entails fear, guilt and lies.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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