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OfflineFrog
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Liar, Liar
    #2186734 - 12/18/03 01:04 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I posted in another thread about how I lied to someone earlier this year. I was talking to someone else about how an ethical attorney I know taught me how to lie without lying.

When do you lie? Is it always wrong to lie? What is a lie?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186792 - 12/18/03 01:55 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I generally don't lie, bit I will tiptoe around the facts sometimes if the direct truth will get me in a bad situation. I'd like to be brutally honest, but my conditioned response is diplomacy. I think there are occassions in which it isn't *wrong* to lie per se, but its iffy ground.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186841 - 12/18/03 02:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Lying means one does not have faith in the truth and is ashamed of some action or position. Only the ego needs to distort, inflate, hide or exaggerate the facts. Lying is cowardly and not indicative of a strong sense of self nor a position of integrity. It also points to a mistaken and highly arrogant belief that the liar sees "the bigger picture" and that the one being lied to is incapable of dealing with the way things are.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186858 - 12/18/03 02:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Swami, I agree with what you say, however, most people aren't comfortable with "the truth". The truth is often uncomfortable. I never used to lie, mostly, until I became an attorney. This is not to say I lie now, which is why I said above that another attorney taught me how to lie without lying.

There was this attorney I worked with that said he used to cringe when I opened my mouth. He said that God must have injected me with truth syrum before I was born because I said things that most people wouldn't say, and that I made people feel uncomfortable.

The truth is the truth, in my opinion.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186869 - 12/18/03 02:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

...that another attorney taught me how to lie without lying.

Pardon, but that sounds like a weak rationalization for being dishonest. Being truthful does not mean running off at the mouth and saying to one's spouse, "Geez, you look hideous in that dress." Being truthful is maintaining a posture of internal integrity.

Lying is not really about sparing another's feelings; this is a grand illusion! It is about being fearful how one will look to another.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186876 - 12/18/03 02:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Here's what's funny about "lying without lying":

When I first learned it, I was about to go to trial on a case, and the other side wanted to depose my expert witness. (Sorry to sound like an attorney, but I are one.)

I didn't want the other side to depose my expert, so the attorney with whom I was associated told me to tell my expert that he was to go on vacation for the next two weeks, which was the time during which the attorneys wanted to take the deposition. My expert did what I told him to do.

Then, I called the other side and said my expert was going to be out of town.

See?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186880 - 12/18/03 02:50 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

See?

I DO see. As I ALREADY said, "It is about being fearful ..."


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186881 - 12/18/03 02:51 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Swami, while I agree with you, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and argue from the Utilitarian position. The truth sometimes hurts, and from the Utilitarian position, something which causes more pain than pleasure is bad. Therefore, from this position, if you can make someone happy or prevent them from being unhappy by lying to them, then it's good. If you cheat on your partner and you lie about it, and they never find out about it, this would be good from the Utilitarian perspective, as it increases the happiness of all parties involved.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186882 - 12/18/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

truth is absolute....peoples perceptions of it are not. Manipulating perceptions/limiting aquisition of the information they would need to see past their misconception isn't lying, it's sneaky.
But what a lie is depends on the person with whom you're conversing...i've been told that not telling someone a fact is a lie.
Don't know how it can be, seeing as i said nothing at all..


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"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2186883 - 12/18/03 02:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Randolph, I absolutely agree with you.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: silversoul7]
    #2186899 - 12/18/03 03:01 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If you cheat on your partner and you lie about it, and they never find out about it, this would be good from the Utilitarian perspective, as it increases the happiness of all parties involved.

This is perfect example of the illusion that I am talking about. Living in fear does not make the cheater happy. And the partner already senses the rift on some level. The sharp pain of betrayal is only being delayed.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2186902 - 12/18/03 03:04 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I will restate one final time (OK I am lying as I will go on endlessly  :lol:) that being deceitful means that one has no faith in one's position. This is a stumbling block to being a mature and happy spiritual being.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186903 - 12/18/03 03:04 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If I cheat on my partner, and it's a one-time thing, and it is something that I promise to myself that will never happen again, why would I want to hurt my partner with that information?

Now, on the other hand, if I am a habitual cheater, I most definitely should tell my partner, so that my partner can have the option of staying with me or leaving, in light of my infidelities.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186918 - 12/18/03 03:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Some people can cheat, look directly into their partner's eyes, and lie without feeling the slightest bit of guilt or fear, and in many cases, the partner never does find out about it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186919 - 12/18/03 03:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You don't have to be decietful....just allow misconceptions to flourish. Refusing to correct someone's perception of an event based on preconcieved notions is not decietful. it's just taking a course of least action.
When you say position, i think debate...and misconceptions are something to be used with relish in a debate...played out until the person can be told the truth (or at least partially corrected) in a manner that proves to be most effective in proving your point, whatever that may be.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186922 - 12/18/03 03:17 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If I cheat on my partner...
It is OK if you do it with a Swami.

...and it is something that I promise to myself that will never happen again
I see. Piling another illusion on top of the previous illusion. Is it any wonder no one can disentagle themselves from the web of maya. You have already broken promises and shown dishonesty, now miraculously you are making another pathetic promise FOR ALL YOUR FUTURE FEELINGS and ACTIONS sp that you may temporarily assuage your guilt.

One cannot be dishonest to another and honest to themselves. The inner and the outer are the SAME.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: silversoul7]
    #2186928 - 12/18/03 03:25 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Some people can cheat, look directly into their partner's eyes, and lie without feeling the slightest bit of guilt or fear

*Coughs "bullshit!*

You are confusing masking fear with being fearful.

There certainly is fear. Fear of loss of intimacy, marriage, routine, fear of reprisal, conflict, confrontation, anger, divorce; etc. No fear = no lie. Very simple.


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Offlineceephax
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186930 - 12/18/03 03:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The "truth" is a value just for utilitarian purposes, it can be applied to achieve something that we desire. Values are not worthwhile for their own sake.

"There's worse things in life than being duped"


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What am I saying? I'm not even Chinese!


Edited by ceephax (12/18/03 03:26 AM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186940 - 12/18/03 03:32 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe they just lie and then forget about it. The point is that not everyone who does things like that lets it eat them up inside, and the pleasure they get from cheating COULD outweigh the pain of covering it up.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186957 - 12/18/03 03:48 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I will restate one final time that being deceitful means that one has no faith in one's position. This is a stumbling block to being a mature and happy spiritual being.


I agree with you, however it may not always be symptomatic of lack of faith in ones position, but rather lack of faith in ones ability to DEFEND their position, or the assumption (valid or otherwise) that the person being lied to will refuse to hear them out or respect thier differences.

I hate it, but I avoid admitting certain things to certain people out of this fear. I don't respect myself for it and I don't like it but I still can't admit to my parents that I do any drugs beyond pot. And they only know about the pot coz my mom caught me really stoned one night. They know I find drugs interesting since I talk about them fairly regularily, listen to psychedelic music and watch movies about drugs in front of them, but since they've never asked a question to which the answer was yes I havn't said anything. I want to get it out in the open since it's something important to me, but knowing the way my mom argues against drugs already, I'd hate to have the fight that would arise if I was totally dead honest. I intend to tell them once they realize I'm not an irresponsible child, once I've proved that sufficiently enough that I'm no longer treated like one and can actually have a difference in opinion without being spoken down to.


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