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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265456 -

Enlil said:
They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.


Assumes facts not in evidence - that the resumption of hostilities in Iraq meets the criteria for qualifying as an "unjust" war. Or were you speaking of Afghanistan?


Phred


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265476 -

Both were unjust wars in my opinion...that's the only opinion that matters to me.  If these soldiers have different opinions, and are willing to participate in the wars because they find them to be just, that's fine for them...It still gives me a valid reason to judge them based on their participation, though.

The bottom line is that anyone who is in the military today is a willing participant in what I deem to be an unjust war.  That participation alone is enough for me to respect them somewhat less than I would otherwise.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265484 -

myc_check1212 said:
No. The duty of a soldier is to follow all lawful orders. Since those orders come from an outside civilian authority take it up with the top. The only times when a soldier is wrong is when he disobeys lawful orders or behaves in a way that violated UCMJ,Geneva convention et.al.



So if a soldier gets an order to murder a village of innocent children and does it, he has done nothing wrong?


you have a warped sense of morality sir.  In that case the right thing to do would be to disobey orders and try to bring that commander to justice.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265508 -

myc_check1212 said:
They only participated in a war they were sent too. Again, the military has no say except when it comes down how to do "x". If your opinion is the wars are unjust you have to take it up with who sent them. If it wasn't for congress/president the military would just be on training missions and stand by. We sign up in good faith and give up a significant amount of voice and liberty. We hand it over to the elected and then follow.

there are two ways I know to "fight" an order. One is to file for CO, conscience objector status. You can file on religious grounds, like a Quaker or political grounds I.e. "unjust war".

the other is through UCMJ, akin to taking a case to the Supreme Court with the same high stakes and pressure. The last case I know of was in 03 when reservists refused to leave the wire until they had the same hardware as their active duty counterparts. They lost I think. Point is none of it would have happened, including the war without the ok from the rest of you who had a say.

the military is a Republic in the rawest form, everybody in uniform gives up a piece of themselves to form something bigger. That creature is then at the behest of others. We sign up, regardless of motive with a blank slate. Its up to the rest of you to make the cause just.



"Just following orders"  is by no means an excuse for carrying out orders that are wrong.

You are not a programmed robot.  You can and should disobey orders that are wrong.

The individual actions you choose to make orders or not are 100% all o  you.  Trying to skirt the blame up the chain of commsnd is cowardly and a weasels way of trying to excuse his own guilt and immorality.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265510 -

Enlil said:
Both were unjust wars in my opinion...that's the only opinion that matters to me.


Unnecessary, perhaps. Unjust? Hardly.


Phred


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265514 -

Phred said:
Enlil said:
They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.


Assumes facts not in evidence - that the resumption of hostilities in Iraq meets the criteria for qualifying as an "unjust" war. Or were you speaking of Afghanistan?


Phred


You're even more deluded than the other guy.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265520 -

So there you have it.  Your opinion and my opinion differ.  That's certainly not uncommon.  I can see no argument wherein invading Iraq and/or Afghanistan meets anything close to a rational definition of justice.  YMMV and obviously does, however.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19265522 -

Dude that argument is flaccid, that order would be UNLAWFUL, no body should follow that because of the rules I already stated. UCMJ, Geneva Convention et.al. Shit that was lame. Try again

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19265526 -


Enlil said:
Both were unjust wars in my opinion...that's the only opinion that matters to me.


Unnecessary, perhaps. Unjust? Hardly.


Phred


what's the difference?  War could only possibly be deemed just if it is absolutely necessary.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19265530 -


"just following orders" what a load of shit.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265535 -

All LAWFUL ORDERS. LAWFUL BEING THE OPERATIVE WORD.  LAWFUL

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265545 -

myc_check1212 said:
Dude that argument is flaccid, that order would be UNLAWFUL, no body should follow that because of the rules I already stated. UCMJ, Geneva Convention et.al. Shit that was lame. Try again



Who's law?  What if you were told it was lawful or in your country it was?

you're seriously deluded if you think this government even follows its own laws.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265553 -

myc_check1212 said:
All LAWFUL ORDERS. LAWFUL BEING THE OPERATIVE WORD.  LAWFUL



Are you trying to say that lawful orders are always just and moral?  Hitler made it the law to round up jews.... I guess you would have been a Nazi if you were born 70 years ago in germany.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19265595 -

I'm talking about now, in 2013. Most first world powers signed onto and operate by a code of rules. The deployment was lawful, destroy Saddams army is lawful, engagement of active military targets is lawful.

directly shooting unarmed populace is UNLAWFUL.

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265596 -

myc_check1212 said:
I'm talking about now, in 2013.


Right now, in 2013, everyone in the military joined or re-upped KNOWING that they would be ordered to do immoral things.  They joined anyway.  That makes them immoral.


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265602 -

Rounding up jews in germany was lawful too.

I can't believe you don't see the gaping flaw in your logic.

law does not equal morality or justice.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265622 -

Immoral is subjective to the beholder. So yes I agree it could be argued immoral. But not unlawful. In regards to Iraq,Afghanistan.

stay in 2013 and on topic regarding U.S. Personnel and policy

Edited by myc_check1212 (12/12/13 02:46 PM)

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265638 -

So, you agree that it's perfectly fair for me, and others like me, to judge soldiers as being immoral based on their participation in immoral acts, whether or not they were just following lawful orders?


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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265707 -

Morality is not subjective.  It is based on natural law (physics)


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19265743 -

I think we took the long way but yes. Its well within your first amendment rights. We probably could have got here quicker if I hadn't ripped some cherry kush.

with that being said I got the answer to my question. The stuff I see is not hate, but judgment based upon the grounds of mortality

Edited by myc_check1212 (12/12/13 03:14 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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