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Offlineexclusive58
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Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq"
    #4310423 - 06/18/05 11:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Former Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey, a 12-year Marine veteran, lives in Waynesville, North Carolina, a small town in the Smoky Mountains just outside of Ashville. He is one of a growing number of American soldiers returning from Iraq who have become outspoken opponents of the war.

Massey entered Iraq as part of the initial US invasion in March 2003. He witnessed?and in some cases participated in?the killing of innocent civilians. During a single 48-hour period, he says, he saw as many as 30 civilians killed by US gunfire at highway checkpoints.

The brutality of the US military?s retaliation against the growing resistance of the Iraqi people transformed his view of the occupation and changed him for life. Massey, horrified and unable to reconcile himself to what was taking place, began to speak out to his superiors. He was eventually medi-vaced out of Iraq and diagnosed with depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. Labeled as a conscientious objector by his commanders, Massey sought legal counsel and won his honorable discharge in December 2003.

In Iraq, Massey was brought face to face with this involvement. The initial invasion took on the character of a one-sided slaughter, with the world?s strongest military power armed with the most technologically advanced weapons, on the one hand, and a disarmed and virtually defenseless military of a country already devastated by a decade of sanctions, on the other.

?You have to look at what was the overall goal of the mission. That was pretty evident when, eight months before we even left to go to Kuwait, the Marines were training to shut down and take over the Ar Rumaylah oil fields. We had detailed schematics and terrain models of all of the oil fields outside of Basra, and once we took care of those, all that was left was the ride into Baghdad.

?We were like a bunch of cowboys who rode into town shooting up the place. I saw charred bodies in vehicles that were clearly not military vehicles. I saw people dead on the side of the road in civilian clothes. As a matter of fact, I only remember seeing a couple of bodies in military uniform the whole time.

?There wasn?t a whole lot of direct fighting to speak of. There were some firefights?I mean I had bullet holes in the side of my Humvee?but it wasn?t like major combat action. We took the highway the whole way up to Baghdad. They had no artillery; they had no air support. They were so weakened by all the sanctions. All of their equipment was in very bad shape. Most of their hardware was left over from the war against Iran. The first Gulf War just devastated them. I don?t think they had the will or the opportunity to fight.?

?As far as I?m concerned, the real war did not begin until they saw us murdering innocent civilians,? he said. ?I mean, they were witnessing their loved ones being murdered by US Marines. It?s kind of hard to tell someone that they are being liberated when they just saw their child shot or lost their husband or grandmother.?

Massey manned a number of US military checkpoints on Iraqi highways in the months following the invasion. He described how, when cars failed to stop, out of confusion or otherwise, the order was to ?light them up? or open fire. It was at one of the checkpoints that Massey?s attitude toward the war reached its turning point.

?We signaled a car to stop and when it didn?t we opened fire. They were innocent civilians. We found no weapons, no explosives?nothing. Somehow, and I have no idea how he could have done it, but one guy got out of the car and he wasn?t badly wounded. He was the brother of one of the men bleeding to death in the car. He looked at me and asked, ?Why did you kill my brother. What did he do to you?? There were 30-plus civilians killed over two days at these checkpoints.?

Massey described the chaotic and reckless character of the roadside checkpoints and the indifference of the military leadership to the culture of the people that they were there supposedly to help.

?When you put your hand up in the air with a closed fist, in the Marines it means you want them to stop,? he said. ?But, as we later learned, it?s actually the international sign of solidarity. It has a totally different meaning for the Iraqis?to them it was a sign like hello. And that was just one example of how we were not trained properly to understand the cultural differences between us and them.

?The bottom line is they [the military command] don?t see the need to teach culture and humanity to men whose singular purpose is to kill. And that was just one of the cultural miscues. I blame the top of the chain of command, from the President down to Tommy Franks [the former commander-in-chief of US occupation forces] to General [James] Mattis [commander of the First Marine Division]. They all knew that the military was not trained properly when it comes to dealing with Muslim culture and a foreign land. But that was not our purpose for being there.?

In the midst of the widespread killing of civilians, Massey was struck by the callousness of the military command and the lack of humanitarian assistance they were offering the Iraqi people. This further deepened his doubts about the true purpose of the war.

?We actually left all of the humanitarian MRE?s [Meals Ready to Eat] in Kuwait,? he recalled. ?We were supposed to give these out for relief, and we left them in Kuwait. They were just for show when the film crews came into the camps. We also had this big show with the medical supplies that we were prepping for Iraqi casualties. We were supposed to get in there and take care of them.

?But I?ll give you an example of what we actually did. After we shot up this car with civilians, I called in the corpsmen to bring in stretchers. They came in and put two men on stretchers. Five minutes later, they brought them back and dumped their bodies on the side of the road. They were still alive. They were riddled with bullets?one guy was just rolling in agony on the side of the road.?

At the time, intelligence reports were streaming in describing insurgents and rebels driving ambulances and civilian cars. In a growing atmosphere of fear within US military ranks, the entire Iraqi population was now viewed as the enemy.

?We?re thinking everyone is a terrorist,? Massey recalled. ?Here we are on no sleep, and there are intelligence reports coming in right and left about suicide attacks and the Republican Guard and so on?attacks being mounted against American forces. So cars come driving through our checkpoints, and our orders are to light them up. The amazing thing about it is that we were telling the Iraqis the exact opposite. We were telling them to keep their schools open, keep the hospitals open, to go about their normal routine??we?re not here to hurt you, we?re just here to overthrow Saddam.? So these people were just doing their normal routines, and they were getting frickin? blasted for it.?

A recent study estimated the number of Iraqi deaths since the start of the war in March 2003 at around 100,000. When asked if this number seemed accurate, Massey responded:

?Yes, but that of course does not include the thousands more who will be dying from disease because of a lack of medical supplies, clean water, or proper sanitation. It does not include the hundreds of thousands that died in Iraq before the war even began from the sanctions. We are committing genocide in Iraq, and that is the intention.?

It is now well established that all of the pretexts for launching the unprovoked war in Iraq were based on manipulated intelligence and lies. In its drive toward war, the Bush administration fraudulently exploited the September 11 attacks to spread fear and panic throughout the country, and this, as Massey notes, was very effective in the South, where he is from.




?What do you tell a kid that just came back from war with the economy the way it is and the lack of jobs, who?s just got finished murdering innocent civilians because his government has violated every law in the Geneva Conventions?? Massey asked. ?You expect him to come back to the US and be a productive citizen? What do you do? For me, I keep hanging on to one thing that my grandfather used to say: ?The truth shall set you free.? I?ll keep talking as long as people listen.?


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/vet-n11.shtml


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4310604 - 06/18/05 12:43 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

World Socialist Web Site? Do you have a more respectable source?


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4311210 - 06/18/05 05:34 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Who cares what the source is? Doesn't change the facts.

oh, and i tried to see if Fox had anything concerning this, but to my great surprise they didn't...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4311223 - 06/18/05 05:39 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Who cares what the source is? Doesn't change the facts.




I don't trust uber-Lefty sources like the "World Socialist Web".

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
oh, and i tried to see if Fox had anything concerning this, but to my great surprise they didn't...




I don't trust Fox either.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4311365 - 06/18/05 06:31 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

What? So the source doesn't share your political point of views and you're disregarding the information they might have because of that? This isn't a left-wing or right-wing biased article. Its just stating what the ex-sergeant has to say.

sheesh.

who do you trust anyway?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4311956 - 06/18/05 10:14 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

well, as long as that's a real soldier talking it speaks volumes. i can easilly fabricate an interview and give a point, though.


honestly, i'm not saying it's false.. but if it's true, it speaks a hell of alot. quite a bit of the filler(aka the shit the soldier's not saying) seems so biased it's almost unpleasent to read imo


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4311986 - 06/18/05 10:24 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I think people misunderstand what genocide entails. Just because a lot of people die doesn't mean it is a genocide. A Genocide is defined as:

""any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:"

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "

I don't believe we are trying to destroy the Iraqi people. It would have to be a war intended to destroy their people to be considered a genocide. Though I think the killing of innocent people is wrong, it was not intended so it is not a genocide.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4312134 - 06/18/05 11:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
What? So the source doesn't share your political point of views and you're disregarding the information they might have because of that?





I don't disregard it...I merely question it.  I tend not to trust biased sources.  A socialist website is invariably going to be super anti-war.  I question the motivations of the veteran and I question anything from sources like that.


Quote:

exclusive58 said:
who do you trust anyway?




Only really hardcore Right-Wing publications.  They speak the truth! 

:rotfl:

But seriously...I don't trust many news organizations.  But, I especially don't trust news from ideologues (whether on the Right or the Left).  Socialists tend to be ideologues.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4312685 - 06/19/05 02:18 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/24/148212

http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/Staff_Sergeant_Jimmy.html

pick one, there's much more there too...

edit: i don't know whether these people are left-winged or right-winged but google came up with plenty more...
I do think this isn't bullshit...


Edited by Paderas (06/19/05 02:20 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Kamek]
    #4312741 - 06/19/05 02:35 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

What is occurring in Iraq is not genocide. Don't just go spouting off words just because you read them.

If you read up on genocide, you'll clearly see that it is not going on in Iraq.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4312750 - 06/19/05 02:39 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

He's clearly quoting.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Kamek]
    #4312753 - 06/19/05 02:39 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4313554 - 06/19/05 01:22 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I tend not to trust biased sources.

Show me an unbiased source and I'll show you a lime green pig who can fly to the moon.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: trendal]
    #4313560 - 06/19/05 01:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

We're all totally missing the point here.

It doesn't matter how unbiased the source is, it is absolutely obvious that no genocide is occurring there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4313568 - 06/19/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

True enough. Also true is that in any group of over 100,000 people you can find someone to support just about any point of view you want.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: trendal]
    #4313583 - 06/19/05 01:41 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I tend not to trust biased sources.

Show me an unbiased source and I'll show you a lime green pig who can fly to the moon.






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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4313586 - 06/19/05 01:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Shit :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4313672 - 06/19/05 02:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

i wonder if you even read the post?

Sgt. Massey is coming out with a book about his military time in Iraq, its called "Cowboys from hell". You'll have more details if you buy it.

but then again, you'll still have every right not to trust this guy and say that he's just doing it for the money.

i especially liked the end of the article:
"What do you tell a kid that just came back from war with the economy the way it is and the lack of jobs, who?s just got finished murdering innocent civilians because his government has violated every law in the Geneva Conventions?" Massey asked. "You expect him to come back to the US and be a productive citizen? What do you do? For me, I keep hanging on to one thing that my grandfather used to say: ?The truth shall set you free.? I?ll keep talking as long as people listen."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313690 - 06/19/05 02:41 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Do you know what genocide means?


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4313698 - 06/19/05 02:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I'm thinking media organizations aren't playing their role, they're not bringing the news to the people. The reason for this is another debate.
IF you're searching for real info on the Iraq war, you're not going to find it on CNN, Fox or NBC or whatever.

This was on the CNN Website yesterday:

"Is the Iraqi insurgency taking a toll on U.S. troops? Is there a withdrawal plan? Donald Rumsfeld joins Wolf Blitzer."

Who is the last person with any interest in telling the truth about Washingtons objectives and the military's conduct in Iraq? Why Donald Rumsfeld, of course. That's who was on CNN. Is anyone suprised?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313710 - 06/19/05 02:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The problem is, it doesn't take a news organization to decide whether it is a genocide or not.

One just has to judge the intentions of the government to do that.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4313713 - 06/19/05 02:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Do you know what genocide means?




Do you know that civilians have been voluntarily killed by US soldiers? What? You don't think that what happened in Vietnam can't happen in Iraq can you?

The point that YOU are missing is that its not just anybody that talks about a genocide. Its a friggin sergeant, who's been in Irag for two years or something. I think that outweighs anything that you or I have to say...


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313737 - 06/19/05 03:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I think that Sergent was trying to "sensationalize" his story by using the word "genocide".


Are there bad things happening in Iraq....yes

Are civilians being killed.....yes.

Are civilians being singled out for murder.....no

Is there "genocide" going on.....no.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313751 - 06/19/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Do you know what genocide means?




Do you know that civilians have been voluntarily killed by US soldiers? What? You don't think that what happened in Vietnam can't happen in Iraq can you?

The point that YOU are missing is that its not just anybody that talks about a genocide. Its a friggin sergeant, who's been in Irag for two years or something. I think that outweighs anything that you or I have to say...




It doesn't matter who says that genocide is going on. My statments outweigh his b/c mine are based on the Genocide Convention and criteria that must be met for it to be considered genocide. His are based on a misunderstanding of the meaning of genocide, which coincidentally, you share.

Do a little reading on the word genocide, and you'll find yourself mistaken. Look up the author of the word "genocide" (Raphael Lemkin) and his thoughts on the matter.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4313850 - 06/19/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

fine, "genocide" is probably too strong of a word.

but i think that if i saw with my own eyes what Massey said he has done and seen, i couldn't help but to think of that word. even if it doesn't coincide with the true definition of "genocide", it sure brings up an idea of what's going on.


and i don't think its use is to "sensationalize" his story, because that's the word he used when he spoke to one of his commanders about the atrocities happening.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313919 - 06/19/05 04:14 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So his reason for publishing a book arent to make money.....but to spread the "truth" about whats going on in Iraq :rolleyes:


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4313964 - 06/19/05 04:23 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

is that so unconceivable?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4314699 - 06/19/05 08:21 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

What, publishing a book, or lying to get it published?

Anyone can see that the U.S. is clearly not committing genocide in Iraq. This soldier is just trying to cash in on his experience in Iraq, by fluffing up his story, so someone will publish it.

Do you honestly believe that the U.S. is committing genocide in Iraq?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4314714 - 06/19/05 08:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Oy vey, you had to ask?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4316102 - 06/20/05 04:52 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

no, its not a genocide, its a massive murder...funny how these two notions soud so similar no?

I don't think this guy is going to lie to get his book published. how long does it usually take for such information to get out to the public? 10, 20 years? and here we are today with internet, the fastest and most performant information and communication tool ever, and we don't want to find out NOW what we usually get to find out in a long time. sad if you ask me.

go find out for yourself! there's plenty of soldiers coming back with such witnesses, but since big medias don't want to hear them, they use the internet to share what they know. i could post many other articles from the web like this one, but people would just get tired to hear the same shit after awhile.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4316543 - 06/20/05 12:01 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Whatever you want to call it: a million+ children + civillian adults killed by US driven UN sanctions, followed by 100,000+ civilians killed by the US military and the ongoing daily killing of many civillians; plus a society reduced to lawlessness and wanton killing all around by the USA's actions, plus the carving up of Iraq's oilfields (resources) for foreign investors and rebuilding contracts pretty much all for Halliburton (non-Iraq)

....plus a puppet government, plus leveling entire cities like Falluja, plus targeting mosques and the people's cultural identity with missiles and this forced 'freedom'....

Sounds like attempted destruction of local culture if only for the black gold's purpose. But hey when you've got a guy who speaks to God leading a war against people who speak to Allah.....maybe it really is some moral crusade for GWB in which case it is attempted destruction of a religious and cultural group with the offensive at the place which it is most vital to secure.

Anyway whats in the use of words? The US has been waging a so called 'War on Terror' for years now (of which the entire Iraq debacle is a chapter). 'War on Terror' is an oxymoron and the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed since its inception cannot be described as 'Terror', lets remember we are consistently told by Rummy and co. that the insurgency is a tiny proportion of the population funded usually by foreign interests....well if there are so few of them, how come so many are being killed? And how come none of those killed are insurgents? Well this is the perfect way to up the numbers of insurgents, keep the war going, heighten the cultural divide and head for the big Allah vs God Showdown. Rummy and co. are desperately trying to galvanise the US people and insert a moral backbone, for that they need an opposite to draw lines against - boy are they glad they've found a situation to manipulate that gives them this.

Soon all will be pure.

ps - oh yeh they did maybe kill a couple of insurgents..but just a couple...or were they freedom fighters (real freedom fighters fighting for their freedom to hold their own cultural identity, fighting against foreign invaders and occupiers)..about every 6 months we hear a bogus rumour...so and so, leader of the insurgents has been injured (halleluja!).......never get em do they tho? Never got bin Laden tho......just hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians. That brings me to another oxymoron 'military intelligence'....or to worse thoughts, like bin Laden and the insurgency are not the targets. War itself is the target, but a managable war on foreign soil that means wartime practice can be enforced and the US people bound to their patriotism, religion and culture. Or at least Rummy and co's vision of it.


Edited by CJay (06/20/05 12:13 PM)


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4316587 - 06/20/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

no, its not genocide,

We're committing terroristocide.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316595 - 06/20/05 12:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey
By Scott McLeod


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Former Marine Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey was honorably discharged from the Corps in December 2003 after 12 years of active duty. Diagnosed with depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, he came home to live in Waynesville. His military tours included training infantry soldiers at boot camp in Parris Island, S.C., acting as a Marine recruiter in Waynesville and Sylva, and participating in the invasion of Baghdad during April and May of 2003.

Massey?s discharge proceedings began when he questioned the killing of civilians in Iraq. During the U.S.-led invasion in the spring of 2003 Massey suddenly came to doubt his mission. He says the killing of innocent civilians in which he took part changed him. He also believes America?s ability to complete its mission in Iraq has been compromised from the beginning ? since those first days when troops rolled into Baghdad more than a year ago? because of faulty intelligence that led to civilian deaths, said Massey.

Now he?s telling his story to reporters around the world. He estimates he?s given 35 interviews over the last few months, both in the local newspapers, papers like the Sacramento Bee in California, and to international media outlets such as the BBC. He?s currently working on a book with a French journalist from New York. We interviewed him in Waynesville at the public library.



Q: Tell me about the story of the civilian deaths that is recounted in the Sacramento Bee article.

A: I had actually forgotten about this. I had it repressed in my mind. I am writing a book. A French journalist is helping me with the structure of it. She drove down here after the story in The Mountaineer. She investigated and found out it was true. ...

I am waiting to get into VA so I can start my therapy, but process takes a long time with the VA and everything. That was an incident I remembered, the shooting of the civilians. It?s been a healing process for me, trying to heal myself talking about it and putting it in a memoir text.

The straw that broke the camel?s back was an incident right outside of Baghdad. We had just taken a security position, we had actually just taken out some bad guys, so the platoon was in high morale because we had shot some bad guys. In doing that, we saved a battalion from an RPG (rocket-propelled grenade) attack. The men were pretty stoked and were trying to forget about yesterday?s scenario with the civilian casualties and everything.

... This red Kia came into our area, and we fired a warning shot. They didn?t stop. I won?t say the Marine Corps did not take adequate steps. We did all within our power. I don?t fault the Marine Corps. It?s the intelligence reports that led to the kind of mass hysteria that led to the genocidal type of atmosphere that was prevalent. And that?s what it felt like, like we were just mass exterminating Iraqis.

The Kia came into our area, and they went past our signs in Arabic saying ?stop, halt.? We fired warning shots, they didn?t stop. We opened up on them with 50-caliber and M-16s and 240s.

There were four people in the car, and the vehicle came to a stop about 50 meters in front of my Humvee. Somehow the driver managed to escape the bullets, to this day I don?t know how, whether Allah, or Buddah or God was looking after him. We went up and started pulling bodies out, they were shot up pretty bad, still alive but expiring pretty fast.

The one gentleman who survived came out, wailing and flailing his arms, sitting on the curb covering his face and crying. He got up, by that time the corpsmen was there doing CPR, and he looked up at me. ?Why did you kill my brother? He did not do anything to you.?

It just hit me like a ton of bricks. What in the hell are we doing, what are we doing, what are we accomplishing? Not more than five minutes ago we were taking out bad guys, and we?re now killing civilians.



Q: So from the time the U.S. military started going into Baghdad, you immediately saw some actions that turned a lot of Iraqi people against us?

A: Yes, I hate to say it, but it was like turning a bunch of pit bulls loose on a cage full of rabbits. You got Marines hyped up by 9-11 propaganda, by Saddam saying he was going to use chemical weapons against us, that the streets were gonna run red. You know, there?s no match for a squad of Marines. A squad of Marines are devastating with the amount of firepower and destructions that?s available.

You know, Marines are dehumanized from boot camp, desensitized to the killing. The Marine Corps says their job is to instill intangible traits into their recruits, such as self-discipline, self-confidence, honor, courage and commitment. What they fail to realize is that once you train a person with a warrior mentality, once you desensitize them to death, violence and destruction, and then place them in an environment such as Iraq, it also becomes a Jekyl and Hyde mentality. One minute you?re passing out candy to a little kid, 10 minutes later you?re opening fire on a vehicle with women and children. And the Iraqis saw that, they saw the evil side to Americans. And we set ourselves up for failure from the beginning.


Q: Were there any gratifying aspects to what you did while over there?

A: Oh yeah, there were. We killed lots of bad guys.

Once, and I still have the note, there was this little girl in Baghdad, near the university. We pulled into what looked like a women?s homeless shelter. We parked our Humvee and got out, and these people were so loving. They were giving us flowers. This little girl kept staring at me, and she was waving and smiling. She picked up a piece of paper and she came running downstairs and wrote, ?Hi, I love you, God bless America.? It was so powerful.

And then, after reading something like that, we were probably killing some of her innocent relatives. Maybe that?s why she?s in a shelter.



Q: With Memorial Day coming up, how do you feel about the holiday, our country, the soldiers still there and this war?

A: I fear for their lives and for my life. America is in a dark time. The country is divided. I do keep in contact with one Marine who is in Iraq right now, but I don?t tell him anything about what is going on here. I don?t tell him about the mindset. His job while he?s over there is to support the president of the United States. The men and women who are over there need all the mental and physical courage they can muster, to do the job they have to do.

I used to tell my Marines our job is not to be over here playing politician, our job is to secure Iraq for a free market democracy, and that?s what we?ll do. However, I felt what I saw, I didn?t see any way for America to accomplish that. When I became vocal about that, the Marine Corps did not like what I had to say.


Q: How?d you get out of the Marines after these incidents?

A: I went to regimental sergeant major. He?s in charge of about 3,500 marines, and he called me into his office. He said, ?I understand the situation and your feelings about Iraq, but we?re going to go ahead and move you into a different job. We?re going to give you a cushy job. You?ve only got seven more years to retire and you?ve got a lot built up in your career.?

... I told him, ?Thank you sergeant major, I don?t want your money anymore. I don?t want your benefits. You killed some civilians, and you?re gonna have to live with it partner, and I?m gonna tell the truth.? He didn?t like that. He said, ?Well, there might be some judicial proceedings that follow.? I said I accept that, and he didn?t need me for anything else I?d like to be dismissed.

I went straight down to the PX and bought copy a of the Marine Corps Times, and in the back they have advertisements for military lawyers. I put my finger on the name of Mr. Gary Myers in Washington, D.C. ... I gave him the number to the sergeant major and to the psychiatrist I was seeing. He called me and said ?I think they see crystal clear what you are trying to achieve, and I don?t think there will be any problem.? If I didn?t hire a lawyer, I wouldn?t be sitting here talking to you. I?d be in a brig.



Q: As time has gone on, more questions are being raised about whether the Iraqis will ever support what Americans are trying to do. How difficult is that going to be?

A: I mean, well, I?m not a politician, I?m just a good-old boy. But you?re asking an Iraqi that probably just lost an innocent loved one to the American military, and now you?re asking them to submit to this democracy that is being imposed on them, and a lot of them are resentful. They are bitter about their loved ones being killed. They had makeshift morgues over there, and bodies were piled upon bodies on the truck beds, just packed, and the civilians in the area said it was from the airstrikes. It was so bad that the body tissue was just oozing out of the crevices of the truck.

I understand there are loopholes in the Geneva Conventions and loopholes in the rules of engagement. However, I?m not going to kill innocent civilians for no government. If you want to go head to head in battle with men in uniform, I?m all for it. I would still be in the Marines. However, I was taught and raised by parents and relatives that there are certain moral things you don?t do, and killing innocent civilians is one of them.



Q: Will we be able to succeed in Iraq?

A: I?m not going to sit here and play armchair quarterback. I don?t have all the answers. I spent 12 years in an organization and I feel I did my best. I have different ways of looking at things because of my worldly travels. I?m not going to play armchair quarterback to the government. I?m just saying how I feel. People can take it with grain of salt, or hear it, or apply it to themselves and make them a better person. There was no need for what we did over there, there was no need.

As I?ve been telling this story, I?ve gotten lots of positive response. I?ve also gotten hate mail, people telling me ?You?re destroying America, violating the code of silence.? People like that need to turn off the idiot box.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316671 - 06/20/05 12:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

From the man himself:
Q: Tell me about the story of the civilian deaths that is recounted in the Sacramento Bee article.

A: I had actually forgotten about this. I had it repressed in my mind. I am writing a book. A French journalist is helping me with the structure of it. She drove down here after the story in The Mountaineer. She investigated and found out it was true. ...

this dude is a joke.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316692 - 06/20/05 12:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

this dude is a joke

:thumbup:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316696 - 06/20/05 12:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
no, its not genocide,

We're committing terroristocide.




Yet the number and frequency of terrorist attacks on this planet has steadily increased since this 'terroristocide' began.....go figure.

Sounds like you are committing 'absolute failure' if terroristocide is the object.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4317005 - 06/20/05 02:39 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

if this dude is a joke, you guys will be laughing your ass off in a few years when the "law of silence" will be broken by hundreds of other soldiers.

this is just the beggining. you guys can close your minds off to this for now, but soon you will be forced to come face to face with the fact that the american military has become the biggest terrorist in the world.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317073 - 06/20/05 02:57 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Regardless, no genocide is occurring


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317128 - 06/20/05 03:14 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

genocide, slaughter...same thing if you ask me.

but if it makes you happy, semantically you are correct.  :handth: :penis:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317268 - 06/20/05 04:11 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, no one here is saying that bad things aren't happening in Iraq.

Just that using the term "genocide" is wrong. It gives the wrong impression of what is really going on over there.

Are there civilians being killed, of course, it's a war, civilians have been killed in every war in history. This is no different.

I have yet to hear of a situation where civilians were targeted for murder.

From what I have heard so far from this guy, the civilians that were killed didn't follow the rules of the check point.
Had they stopped like the sign said they would NOT have been shot at.
The military did nothing wrong.

Are the military supposed to just let cars run thru the checkpoints?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317316 - 06/20/05 04:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Slaughter does not equal genocide. Like I said earlier, look it up. There is plenty of info on the web.

There is no intent to kill civilians. Even if there were, there is no intent to wipe out the entire Iraqi population.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317421 - 06/20/05 04:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Hella lot seem to be dyin tho eh?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317435 - 06/20/05 04:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, but civilian casualties occur in every war. This one is no different.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317480 - 06/20/05 05:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The war ended a 2 years ago, this is an occupation.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317525 - 06/20/05 05:22 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

If we want to be literal, the war never started.

This is off-topic, though. I think we can all step back and realize this is not genocide.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317554 - 06/20/05 05:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So what is going on if there isn't and never was a war? Just hundreds of thousands of people from a particular nation being killed?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317592 - 06/20/05 05:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well, if you're going to be literal about it, then no, it never was. It was a conflict. I'm ready to admit it was a war if you're ready to admit it still is.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317634 - 06/20/05 06:02 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Cjay said

"Just hundreds of thousands of people from a particular nation being killed? "

i keep hearing this hundreds of thousands number. source?


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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4317671 - 06/20/05 06:14 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3962969.stm

various reports put the death toll at figures of 14 - 100,000 plus. Judging by the heavy handed and extremely clumsy methods of the US military and the current post war death toll in this lawless land I am inclined to go with the higher estimates. When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317690 - 06/20/05 06:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That's the type of think that will happen when the enemy doesn't wear uniforms.

I'm not denying lots of people died. I'm just saying this guy should work on his vocabulary b/c he obviously doesn't understand the word "genocide".


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317705 - 06/20/05 06:24 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die.




What war are you referring to with this statement? Can't be WWII since there were no helicopter gunships or cluster bombs then. Fill us in, please.



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4317712 - 06/20/05 06:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I'm pretty sure he means the conflict in Iraq.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317724 - 06/20/05 06:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

He can't possibly be referring to the war in Iraq, since what he describes hasn't taken place there. I thought at first he might have meant Viet Nam, but I'm pretty sure cluster bombs weren't used in the bombing of North Viet Nam either. I am certain they weren't used in South Viet Nam or Cambodia.

No point speculating. I'll wait for CJay's answer.



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317727 - 06/20/05 06:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

100,000 civilian deaths since april 2003?

so thats like 50,000 a year?

4000 a month?

150 a day?

150 per day. BBC actually wants us to belive that 150 civilians have been killed every single day, day in and day out, week after week for 24 straight months? We're expected to believe that dozen or so people killed by homicide bombers once every few weeks is enough to make world wide news, but 150 people killed every day can only be detected by a study reported by the BBC.

sorry i think the numbers are cooked.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Edited by lonestar2004 (06/20/05 06:30 PM)


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4317740 - 06/20/05 06:31 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

More than that. look at the date of the Lancet article, then remember that the "data" used to produce that number was gathered months before the report was published.


Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317747 - 06/20/05 06:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

If it was a conflict, and is now an occupation - then the USA is not at war. The USA is a colonising force.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317760 - 06/20/05 06:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Were we colonizing Europe after WWII during the Marshall plan and the fixing of Europe's infrastructure?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4317764 - 06/20/05 06:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Dude, no one here is saying that bad things aren't happening in Iraq.
Just that using the term "genocide" is wrong. It gives the wrong impression of what is really going on over there.




Ya maybe, but i think it gives a better representation than what you hear on TV.
and this is just what he said to his commander to tell him what he felt on the war. its to be used as an image and not litteraly.
if he was going to title his book "genocide in Iraq", then that would be a problem.
so if what's really bothering you is that i put "genocide" in the title of my post, if you want i can change it, but i'd be changing another preson's words, and that's not real nice.

Quote:

Are there civilians being killed, of course, it's a war, civilians have been killed in every war in history. This is no different.




like Cjay said, it's not a war since 2 years ago. its an occupatoin.

Quote:

I have yet to hear of a situation where civilians were targeted for murder.




oh you were waiting to hear it on the shroomery huh? well then, why didn't you say it earlier? i'll make sure to remember that my next post in PA&L will be dedicated to you  :wink:

Quote:

From what I have heard so far from this guy, the civilians that were killed didn't follow the rules of the check point.
Had they stopped like the sign said they would NOT have been shot at.
The military did nothing wrong.




*sigh* its kind of downing to see that practically noone actually read my post. its like, whats the use for posting then?

"?When you put your hand up in the air with a closed fist, in the Marines it means you want them to stop,? he said. ?But, as we later learned, it?s actually the international sign of solidarity. It has a totally different meaning for the Iraqis ? to them it was a sign like hello. And that was just one example of how we were not trained properly to understand the cultural differences between us and them."


oh, and while i'm at it...
Quote:

it's a war



...here's another pertinent remark you might have missed from the article:

?As far as I?m concerned, the real war did not begin until they saw us murdering innocent civilians,? he said. ?I mean, they were witnessing their loved ones being murdered by US Marines. It?s kind of hard to tell someone that they are being liberated when they just saw their child shot or lost their husband or grandmother.?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4317771 - 06/20/05 06:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I use the word war loosely when addressing the invasion part of this episode. The conflict between two governments waged through their militaries. The bit that was like a war and not an occupation, the bit Bush happily sealed off with his 'Mission Accomplished' paegentry.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317779 - 06/20/05 06:39 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Were we colonizing Europe after WWII during the Marshall plan and the fixing of Europe's infrastructure?




Were the local Europeans trying to drive you out?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317788 - 06/20/05 06:41 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Nope, but only b/c they were reasonable enough to relize that we were helping them.

I dare say that nowhere near a majority of the Iraqi population care enough about us being there to take actions against us.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317845 - 06/20/05 06:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Go ahead, actually check CJay's link. It doesn't just say what he says it does. Random quotes, "the Lancet admits the research is based on a small sample-1ooo homes" & "independant estimate of civilian deaths was around 15,000" & "a respected database run by a group of academics and peace activists has put the number of reported civilian deaths at 14,000 to 16,000". Beware CJays bullshit. This whole bit of jive was fisked relentlessly earlier but CJay just keeps putting out the same shit once he thinks people have forgotten.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317853 - 06/20/05 06:55 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well I hope it works out, but I have my doubts because I think at this rate unhappiness and unrest will only grow.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4317868 - 06/20/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

did you know that general Tommy Franks promised at the outset of the war that the U.S. government would not conduct a body count of the Iraqi civilians killed by coalition forces?

i think that makes an accurate death count very improbable. and i think that's how the government wants it.

but you're right when you're thinking in your head that estimates should be treated with caution.

personally, knowing the fact that these estimates are a year old, i'm tempted to think that the correct death toll is over 100,000.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4317876 - 06/20/05 06:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I said the estimates are between 14,000 - 100,000+

When I look at one episode alone, such as Falluja, I see terrible devestation, when I see that many places are razed to the ground like this I know the death toll will be high, and I am inclined to go with the higher end of the estimate myself.

I certainly believe it to be much higher than the low end estimates, which include that of the US government, if not as high as the highest.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317877 - 06/20/05 07:00 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

With more than half due to the insurgents directly.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4317902 - 06/20/05 07:06 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My mistake, there is no official US govt estimate


Quote:

There is no official estimate of the number of Iraqi civilians who have died since the outbreak of the war in Iraq.

However, the Pentagon spokesman said "there is no accurate way to validate the estimates of civilian casualties by this or any other organisation".




....must be a lot though judging by that.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317924 - 06/20/05 07:13 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die.




Is it your contention that the above events happened somewhere in Iraq after March 19, 2003?

If so, I would like to see some links to credible sources, please, since I've been following all the news out of Iraq incredibly closely since that date and haven't seen anything even close to what you describe reported in any of the roughly two dozen sources I check daily.

Thank you.


Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4318094 - 06/20/05 07:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if you've seen Iraq lately but its populated areas are in large part rubble, pre March 19 2003 they were mostly buildings. In between a bunch of people called the US military went in there with the kind of weaponry I mentioned and funnily enough used that equipment to enact that destruction. Of course the insurgency that has risen up adds to the overall devestation, more and more now since the American military's major campaign was in the invasion episode apart from that time they all but destroyed falluja to get to those apparent insugents there.

The general method of attack is airstrikes followed by ground troops and artillery - both use clusterbombs and machine guns and missiles.

A couple of links but I am sure you will denounce them - check out any tv screen for visuals on Iraq and you might work out why Halliburton have such a big rebuilding contract.

On 14th October 2004 sensing that the city of 300,000 was to be singled out for destruction as it had become a symbol of Resistance against the Occupation ; the people of Fallujah through several organizations of Teachers, Tribal Leaders, the Shura Council , the Bar Association, through the President of the Study Centre of Human Rights and Democracy forwarded an urgent appeal to the Secretary General of the United Nations in these words:

" Your Excellency, It is obvious that the American forces are committing crimes of genocide every day in Iraq .Now while we are writing to Your Excellency , the American warplanes are dropping their most powerful bombs on the civilians in the city , killing and injuring hundreds of innocent people . At the same time their tanks are attacking the city with their heavy artillery?"

"On the night of 13th October alone American bombardment demolished 50 houses on top of their residents. Is this a genocidal crime or a lesson about democracy? It is obvious that the Americans are committing acts of terror against the people of Fallujah for one reason only : their refusal to accept the Occupation."

"Your Excellency and the whole world knows that the Americans and their allies devastated our country under the pretext of the threat of the Weapons of Mass Destruction .Now after the destruction and the killing of thousands of civilians , they have admitted that there were no weapons found .But they say nothing about all the crimes they have committed .Unfortunately everyone is now silent and will not dignify the murdered Iraqi civilians with words of condemnation .Are the Americans going to pay compensation as Iraq has been forced to do after the Gulf War??."

" We know we are living in a world of double standards .In Fallujah , they have created a new vague target: AL ZARQAWI. This is a new pretext to justify their crimes, killing and daily bombardment of civilians. Almost a year has passed since they created this new pretext and whenever they destroy houses ?.they said ?We have launched a successful operation against AL Zarqawi. hey will never say that they have killed him because there is no such person. And that means the daily killings of civilians and the daily genocide will continue."

"At the same time the representatives of Fallujah , our tribal leader has denounced on many occasions the kidnapping and killing of civilians , and we have no links to any group committing such inhuman behaviour."

" Excellency , we appeal to you and to all the world leaders to exert the greatest pressure on the American administration to stop the crimes in Fallujah and withdraw their army?.the city was quiet and peaceful when its people ran it ?.We simply did not welcome the Occupation. This is our right according to the UN Charter , International Law and the laws of humanity. If the Americans believe in the opposite they should first withdraw from the UN and all its agencies before acting in a way contrary to the Charter they have signed"

" It is very urgent that your Excellency along with the world leaders, intervenes in a speedy manner to prevent a new massacre?."

This was the voice of the people of Fallujah appealing to the UN and to world leaders and what was the response? After the administration of the United States had taken care of the African-American voters and others through the Diebold electronic voting machines on the 8th November commenced the destruction of Fallujah which to the United States was a symbol of Iraqi resistance throughout the world. There is hardly a home intact in the city of Fallujah. The first attack by US forces with the Black Watch Regiments poised on the highways , was on the Fallujah hospitals and medical personnel who report the casualty figures and treat the wounded the messengers of the devastation and loss of lives .Dr Khamis al-Muhammadi of the Fallujan General Hospital has informed the media that she was seized and taken away by Occupation forces even as she was about to cut an unbilical cord during child birth; several doctors have been reported to have been killed and all hospitals and clinics destroyed. AL ZARQAWI like BIN LADEN was never captured despite the destruction of the entire city. Yet who can destroy the spirit of Fallujah which has survived many attempts of a whole century to crush it.

Even as use of Depleted Uranium , of napalm, of banned chemicals spread throughout the world , Mr . Kofi Anan reacted to the appeal of Fallujah and pronounced what had already been known to millions that :

"The Occupation of Iraq is illegal?" with the Japan Times subsequently reporting that the Secretary General of the United Nations would pay the price for this statement with calls for his resignation despite past services rendered and though the real price for the fraudulently conceived ?FOOD FOR OIL? program vests with the Security Council and the entire policy and its implementation was illegal as it sought to impose control over the resources of anther sovereign country to regulate production and distribution of Oil.

With the war declared categorically illegal even by the Secretary General of the United Nations , on what basis does the US administration plan to increase troop levels .Why has it concealed from the world that it has already created four military bases in Iraq with the objective of permanent occupation . And what is the nature of the liberation of Iraq. Dahr Jamail reports that Baghdad after 19 months remains in shambles bombed out buildings sit as insulting reminders of unbroken promises of reconstruction 70 % of Iraqis at the very minimum are unemployed and there is a five mile petrol lines in an oil rich country.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BHA412A.html

(below from USA today article)

The Pentagon presented a misleading picture during the war of the extent to which cluster weapons were being used and of the civilian casualties they were causing. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters on April 25, six days before President Bush declared major combat operations over, that the United States had used 1,500 cluster weapons and caused one civilian casualty. It turns out he was referring only to cluster weapons dropped from the air, not those fired by U.S. ground forces.

In fact, the United States used 10,782 cluster weapons, according to the declassified executive summary of a report compiled by U.S. Central Command, which oversaw military operations in Iraq. Centcom sent the figures to the Joint Chiefs in response to queries from USA TODAY and others, but details of the report remain secret.

U.S. forces fired hundreds of cluster weapons into urban areas. These strikes, from late March to early April, killed dozens and possibly hundreds of Iraqi civilians. Forty civilians were killed in one neighborhood in Hillah, 60 miles south of Baghdad, say residents and Saad Khazal al-Faluji, a surgeon at Hillah General Hospital who tracked casualties.

http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/iraqc.htm#clusterbombs


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4318125 - 06/20/05 07:58 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die.




Please provide links to credible sources describing a whole town or a whole village or a whole city which was levelled to the ground in Iraq post March 19, 2003.

Thank you.



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4323846 - 06/22/05 08:28 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The thing is Pinky that no sources you deem 'credible' will not say this, just like they won't say the Bush camp rigged the 2000 elections....but we all know he did. Your faith in officaldom is noble, but often blind.

As I say maybe you are right and I'd love to believe that, but from the primary datum I recieve through my senses, the images coming out of Iraq, the eye witness reports, knowing what kind of arsenal is being used to pound the population centres of the nation. Knowing that there is a rebuilding fund of $18 billion (that seems to denote a lot of urban areas need rebuilding - yet so little of it has been accessed, about $1bn so far, and so few projects started except for arming the Iraqi army and securing the oilfields for the big winners the favoured corporations)

Knowing the leaders of this onslaught, the US government, project false information (as they did to ensure the onslaught could go ahead) - I'm afraid I am past believing anything they say. A series of lies, rigged elections, phoney trumped up terrorist connections and a mission accomplished that will never be, make me realise these people are pathological liars. Occasionally something gets exposed as fraud such as the 45 min claim, but who pays for the exposure? The people who reveal the truth, not the fraudsters. Heads of news corporations and journalists loose their careers, while the falsehood ploughs on unabated and undented. 'Credible' sources cannot go beyond the realm of the governmentally deemed 'credible' without fear of shutdown -personal or companywide, and so they will not go there.

Obviously my links before weren't enough for you, but if you go to Google you will find a lot of sources you do not deem to be 'credible' relaying this information as far as possible. Of course a lot of these ares no one can get near, no reporters no one realy except the locals and the extremely intrepid, being a warzone and territory under US control kind of stops any legal 'credible' information getting out from these parts. Of course you would not listen to anything that does come out, since you will deem it to be uncredible. I'm not sure how far destruction as to go for you to deem it 'levelling' of a population centre, obviously pretty far - and in many places it has certainly gone very far.

So Pinky - I hope you are right and aside from insugent hideouts only a tiny fraction of civillian homes have been destroyed in this 'war' where civillians are more safe than in any previous war. I really hope the numbers of civillian deaths are down near the lowest estimates...or less. However I deem this 'credible' information to be 'uncredible'. Perhaps you are right, but it seems unlikely. In most modern wars there is never any wholesale civillian destruction, there are never so called 'war-crimes'.....nothing credible. Not until a long time after, when there is no where left to 'officially' hide from what really happened and it begins to come out wholesale. (Oh of course during a war the enemy are ALWAYS massacring, war-crime committing evil doers)

I am willing to conceed I cannot supply you with what you want, in which case you are undoubtably right.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4324185 - 06/22/05 12:05 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Though I believe it is nonsense that he won, I refuse to accept that the elections were fixed. That is absurd.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4324434 - 06/22/05 01:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Reading this thread has angered me...I mean, wow!

Did you ever stop to think that calling it genocide was perhaps a figure of speech or something? Sure it isn't really "genocide" as the dictionary defines it, but what else is he supposed to call it? Seriously, what single word can sum it up more appropriately?

100,000 civilians dead some say, and the military is still killing them at a steady relentless pace. What shall we call this...hmmm. It's not genocide i guess. It's more like a slow steady squeeze on Iraqis resulting in their gradual population decline....there is that summary a little more PC for you?

I just don't see how anyone can get caught up on the tiniest little technicality involving semantics and miss the over all point so badly, as you have.

A 12 year army veteran (sergeant) comes forth and tells us about the horrible injustices taking place. About the murders taking place. About the things that happen in war where everyone always says "we'll never let that happen again" right after they watch the latest tragic war film....and you ignore all of that and create 20 posts about the meaning of the word genocide as if you getting everyone to admit it's not technically genocide will some how completely discredit this man and erase all the things he has said :lol:


Anyways, It seems appropriate to ask this question again.  :rolleyes: Where is this on the nightly news? This guy seems like someone the liberal media would love, so why isn't he being interviewed by Ted Koppel. Why is the only outlet for his story the "world socialist web" when there are so many loony leftist media networks that could report it? Is it because he has no credibility, if so why doesn't he have any? He was in the marines for 12 years, Iraq for 2, was promoted to the rank of sergeant, and was honorably discharged. So someone please explain to me when his credibility evaporated. It must have been when he decided to put his story into a book right? Well why not, i'd want to do the same if the MSM was ignoring my story. I'm just a bit confused here..if this guy was saying everything was fine and dandy then he'd probably be just as credible as the next guy, right? Does anyone here really believe things in Iraq are "fine and dandy"? Stories like this do not surprise me at all, because i've heard them from a friend of mine that is in Iraq.

I know I know..."that's war" civilians die...it just irritates me that the people who always say that are usually sitting behind a computer somewhere and then when someone who has actually been in the war talks about it in depth and talks about how it makes them feel, then these same people, sitting behind their computers, laugh and say..no that's not how it is at all, this guy is full of shit!


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324490 - 06/22/05 01:18 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Former Sergeant (claims to have shot children) Criticizes Iraq War (at Cornell, Ithaca event)
Copyright ? 2005 The Cornell Daily Sun. All rights reserved. ^ | 3/14/05 | by Nessia Sloane


Posted on 03/14/2005 5:50:57 AM PST by Behind Liberal Lines


ITHACA NY--"I lied, I cheated, and I deceived," Iraq War Veteran and former staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey said Friday in Anabel Taylor Hall.

His lecture was part of his mission to reveal his own experiences as a recruitment counselor and a sergeant on the front lines of Iraq. Massey is currently touring upstate New York as a pacifist, commenting on American manipulation and treachery in the Marine Corps and in the War in Iraq.

Massey was brought to Cornell by an Ithaca organization called Conscious Alternative to Militarism (CAM), which is currently working on a movement of counter-recruitment. Its goal is "to make people informed consumers," said Grace Ritter, a member of CAM and organizer of this event.

Massey's discussion unveiled his participation in the Marine Corps' manipulation as a recruitment counselor.

"I was able to plant seeds in their minds," Massey said.

The recruitment process, Massey said, works under the assumption that it can convince young recruits that it is necessary and beneficial to join the Marines.

Assigned a list of hundreds of young men, each recruitment counselor gathers detailed information on the young men's personal lives, from their SAT scores to their eyesight. According to Massey, once a counselor convinces a person to sign up, he encourages the recruit to lie in order to pass the drug, medical and police tests.

"It's just a manipulation of the English language," Massey said.

Massey himself recruited 75 young men, one of whom even had a serious neurological disorder. Massey explained that he understood what he was doing was wrong but continued to recruit out of fear of losing his job in the Marine Corps.

As a reward for his accomplishments as a recruitment counselor, Massey was sent to the front lines of Iraq where according to Massey "the Rules of the Geneva Convention, were out the windows." He admitted to killing innocent civilians and cited a specific example in which he stormed a car of four young Iraqi men, killing three of them.

"We created the enemy," Massey said.

Massey added that a young man whose brother was just murdered will inevitably fight back. Nathan Newman, an Ithaca resident in the audience, expressed his desire for his brother, a lieutenant in the Marines, to speak out like Jimmy Massey.

"I don't know what could be more important than a person speaking out to a community about finding or re-finding their humanity," said Luke Cannon, another Ithaca resident.

Upon his discharge on Dec. 31 2003, Massey has been speaking out under the assumption that the public has the right to know the truth about military conscription and the War in Iraq.

"I will take back everything I said if [The Marine Corps] could answer one question. How is a six-year-old child with a bullet in his head a terrorist, because that is the youngest I killed," Massey said.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4324501 - 06/22/05 01:20 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"I will take back everything I said if [The Marine Corps] could answer one question. How is a six-year-old child with a bullet in his head a terrorist, because that is the youngest I killed," Massey said.

shouldn't this guy be in jail???? or the officer that gave him the order???


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4324521 - 06/22/05 01:26 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

--"I lied, I cheated, and I deceived,"

just like he is doing now!

this guy is a JACK ASS


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4324553 - 06/22/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, I trust this source that someone actually said this. My question is, so what? With as many people going to Iraq as there are, there's bound to be a wide diversity of opinions. Now, to say that we shouldn't be in Iraq is one thing, and I'd tend to agree with such a statement. But to say that it's genocide is utter stupidity. What race or ethnicity are we systematically killing off? We're killing insurgents, but are they a different ethnicity than the members of the Iraqi government? Are we killing them for the color of our skin? No. We're killing them because they're trying to kill us.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4324556 - 06/22/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Lying, cheating, and decieving is in the marine recruitment job description, that's what they do.

Let me ask you this...Why would someone lie to make himself look like a cold blooded murderer? He might not be the best guy on the planet, but would it really shock you if this stuff was going on? It's not like he layed out some massive conspiracy or anything. He just basically said "we're killing alot of civilians, and i can't do it anymore" that's his whole story basically. It's not all that far-fetched.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4324563 - 06/22/05 01:34 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
genocide, slaughter...same thing if you ask me.



Most ignorant statement of the day.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Silversoul]
    #4324581 - 06/22/05 01:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think anyone has a problem with killing inurgents. The problem is the thousands upon thousands of totally innocent civilians that are also killed


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324598 - 06/22/05 01:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vex said:
I don't think anyone has a problem with killing inurgents. The problem is the thousands upon thousands of totally innocent civilians that are also killed



That sort of thing tends to happen when the enemy doesn't have uniforms, so you don't know who's out to kill you.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Silversoul]
    #4324632 - 06/22/05 01:56 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds alot like Vietnam. I guess that's that though...there is no possible way to maintain security other than shooting innocent people? Don't insurgents tend to carry AK-47's and sometimes rocket launchers? I'd think it would be pretty easy to tell some guy carrying a rocket launcher from a little kid or an old women.

I have an idea. Why don't the soldiers just stop killing civilians (or people who aren't obviously rebels) at the road blocks and just accept the fact that every now and then a rebel will sneak through and kill a couple soldiers. After all that's war soldiers die.

I'm sure there has to be a better way to do things.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324771 - 06/22/05 02:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

When the insurgents dress in civilian clothes....there is bound to be mass confusion.


Why do you think they dress as civilians....to make us look bad.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4324794 - 06/22/05 02:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

The thing is Pinky that no sources you deem 'credible' will not say this, just like they won't say the Bush camp rigged the 2000 elections....but we all know he did.




And there -- in a nutshell -- is the fundamental difference between how you view the world and how I view the world. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Bush camp "rigged" the 2000 elections. As a matter of fact every panel, commission, investigatory body, etc. who reviewed the proceedings has found he won it fair and square. There are countless threads in the archives of this forum with links to the results of those inquiries. Yet you continue to believe -- not just in the absence of evidence but contrary to the available evidence -- that it was rigged.

Before I address the rest of your comments, let me digress a bit.

One of the charges levelled over and over against myself and the other critical thinkers in this forum is that we are "brainwashed into believing whatever Bush tells us". Yet those making the charge are in fact the ones being brainwashed. All any moonbat with a webpage has to do in order to secure their unblinking credulity is to make some snide comments about Bush as Chimpy McHitler RovePuppet and from then on everything he says is swallowed uncritically. "This guy is smart enough to see what a doofus Bush is, therefore he must be right about entire towns being reduced to rubble".

Whereas I and the other critical thinkers who post here don't accept things coming from either camp without evidence. So when I see -- yet again -- a comment like "Your faith in officaldom is noble, but often blind," I'm too tired to even chuckle at the screaming irony of it any longer. I'm all chuckled out.

Quote:

As I say maybe you are right and I'd love to believe that, but from the primary datum I recieve through my senses, the images coming out of Iraq, the eye witness reports, knowing what kind of arsenal is being used to pound the population centres of the nation.




Since neither of us have been to Iraq, the evidence our senses apprehend is all second-hand. There is no "primary datum" (sic) for either of us to process. The difference between us is that you appear never to dig further than whatever the BBC, al-Reuters and AP choose to present to you, whereas I read at least two dozen sources every day ranging from milblogs to bloggers run by Iraqis themselves to foreign bloggers such as Arthur Chrenkoff to e-mails from returning troops. I even had a brief discussion with three returning troops in the smoking lounge at Atlanta airport two weeks ago.

Quote:

I'm not sure how far destruction as to go for you to deem it 'levelling' of a population centre...




Words have meanings. Critical thinkers recognize this inescapable fact. When you say "When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die," I naturally assume that when you say a whole city was levelled to the ground you meant to say a whole city was levelled to the ground. What part of "levelled to the ground" did I misinterpret?

Quote:

I hope you are right and aside from insugent hideouts only a tiny fraction of civillian homes have been destroyed in this 'war' where civillians are more safe than in any previous war.




I am right. Collateral damage in this war was a tiny fraction of what it has been in any previous modern war. And no one denies that far more Iraqi civilians have been killed by the dead-enders blowing themselves up in coffee shops, mosques, schools, police stations, etc. than have been killed by coalition troops. The moonbats blame those deaths on the coalition by saying that if there was no invasion there would have been no suicide bombers. They never take it a step further and recognize that if Hussein had stepped down on his own and organized free elections there would have been no invasion. Or even if he had remained in power but fulfilled the terms of the conditional cease-fire agreement. Oh no! It's not the fault of the suicide bombers using women as shields to get close enough to a checkpoint to blow up a few soldiers that the troops are now more likely to fire on a fast-moving vehicle ignoring demands to stop: it's the fault of the troops for not realizing that this particular speeding vehicle isn't really a threat, but just an Iraqi late for work.

The civilian deaths would end tomorrow if the dead-enders would realize that they have lost -- Iraqis have a freely-elected government, Hussein and his Ba'athist thugs are history, and the Iraqi people clearly don't want even a single cleric in positions of power (as evidenced by the election results), let alone a full-on theocratic state like Iran. The dead-enders have lost. They cannot win. All they can do is kill more innocents.


Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324799 - 06/22/05 03:01 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vex said:
I guess that's that though...there is no possible way to maintain security other than shooting innocent people?




When a car load of innocent civilians run thru a checkpoint, with a armed soldier in the middle of the road trying to get them to stop, and they don't stop...I have no sympathy for them.....:sorry:

Quote:

Don't insurgents tend to carry AK-47's and sometimes rocket launchers?




They also use car bombs.....hel-lo


Quote:

I have an idea. Why don't the soldiers just stop killing civilians (or people who aren't obviously rebels) at the road blocks and just accept the fact that every now and then a rebel will sneak through and kill a couple soldiers.




I assure you that if you were over there and saw terrorist run thru a checkpoint with a car bomb, killing your friend.....you would shoot any car that doesn't stop.

Quote:

I'm sure there has to be a better way to do things.




Why don't you join up and go show them how to do it right....:rolleyes:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4324890 - 06/22/05 03:26 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I'll never join the military. I'm not going to be some pawn that a corrupt delusional jesus freak can send to war for some random BS reason. I'm sorry but i don't trust my countrymen enough. I dont trust them enough to see when the wool is being pulled over their eyes. They don't ask enough questions, demand enough proof, or care enough about each other for me to fight for them. While they're buying into every single bit of WMD propaganda they are fed i'd be getting shipped off to war to fight some ridiculous cause, like "liberating" the iraqi people (by liberating i of course mean killing them) Until Americans can wake up a little i'm gonna stay right where i am and take my infinitesimal chances with the terrorists. The only people i'll fight for is my family and myself.

But at any rate i shouldn't have to join the war to speculate about the war....which brings me back to my original question: Is randomly shooting civilians at road blocks the only way we can maintain security in Iraq?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324928 - 06/22/05 03:34 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Vex asks:

Quote:

Is randomly shooting civilians at road blocks the only way we can maintain security in Iraq?




-- The only way? Of course not. Nor is it the only way security issues are being addressed.

-- How can someone know that this particular speeding car merely contains an Iraqi late for work who is too stupid to realize that when men with guns wave at him to stop he should stop -- especially since this procedure has been in place for two freaking years now?

-- What is the reason for your use of the loaded word "randomly" in your "have you stopped beating your wife yet" question? Is it your contention that troops just roll dice whenever a car approaches and if they come up craps they shoot at it? Define "randomly" in this context, please.

-- What do you believe troops should do when a car refuses to stop? Grin and wave it through?



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4325063 - 06/22/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I don't disagree that speeding up to a check point is not very bright. After two years people should know better. I'm only addressing the question in such a harsh manner because obviously what they are doing is not working at all. Thousands of innocents are dead so they need to figure something else out. All that killing innocent people is going to do is create more terrorists. That seems like a logical statement to me.

I'm not going to define randomly...it's not the best word for it, but you are taking it too literally anyway. Like i said..whatever they are doing now isn't working and is probably hurting the cause in the long run.

As far as what else could be done i have a couple ideas.

They could install a series of speed bumps far prior to the check points and barricade surrounding terrain so the only choice is slowly over a bunch of speed bumps. No more cars speeding up.

They could also use retractable road spikes like the cops have. so if a car isn't stopping they can stop it. Better yet i've heard of a new police weapon that sends some sort of electronic pulse towards a car that disables the engine entirely. They could use that and then send in bomb sniffing dogs or at least they'd have enough time to get through to the obviously not so bright Iraqis. Then standard police tactics of getting everyone out of the cars with hands up would work. They just need a stop zone for the idiots and terrorists.

These problems could create horrible traffic problems, but that's better that people dying needlessly, and it might deter more people from driving/moving around, which would make it easier to single out insurgents. (if they didn't have crowds to move in)

Also...troops shouldn't just stand out in the open like targets if they don't need to. They should have minimal check points and move through the cities in tight alert units. Of course if everyone was alert and wary all the time the illusion of security might suffer.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4325104 - 06/22/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vex said:
Reading this thread has angered me...I mean, wow!

Did you ever stop to think that calling it genocide was perhaps a figure of speech or something? Sure it isn't really "genocide" as the dictionary defines it, but what else is he supposed to call it? Seriously, what single word can sum it up more appropriately?

100,000 civilians dead some say, and the military is still killing them at a steady relentless pace. What shall we call this...hmmm. It's not genocide i guess. It's more like a slow steady squeeze on Iraqis resulting in their gradual population decline....there is that summary a little more PC for you?

I just don't see how anyone can get caught up on the tiniest little technicality involving semantics and miss the over all point so badly, as you have.




Genocide is a word with strict criteria to meet before an event can be considered this.

Rahpael Lemkin, the creator of the word "genocide", surely was familiar with what IS genocide when he created this criteria, considering he was a survivor of the Holocaust and a marvellous scholar.

It is not just a matter of semantics. It is someone who has no clue about the meaning of a word using it incorrectly.

On top of all the criteria which must be meant, the issue of intent must also be taken into consideration. Though I disagree with being in Iraq still, I refuse to believe that our military forces have an active strategy of killing Iraqi civilians.

Perhaps you should do a little readin on genocide before you start spouting off nonsense.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4325154 - 06/22/05 04:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

What do you mean? i agreed with you and said it wasn't genocide. Some people in the world just use terms a little more loosely than others. It seemed to me like he was just trying to imply that they were killing a shitload of innocent people, but instead of saying that you can just say one word: genocide. He shouldn't have called it that though, because it's the wrong word for it.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4325160 - 06/22/05 04:28 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:

Agreed.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4325227 - 06/22/05 04:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Remember, the misuse of a word is a much bigger transgression than the murder of innocents. There are many Iraqis; there is only one word called genocide.

Love your dictionary, not your fellow man.  :heart:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Swami]
    #4325307 - 06/22/05 05:01 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Swami writes:

Quote:

Remember, the misuse of a word is a much bigger transgression than the murder of innocents.




Standard Swami dodging of the issue as well as standard Swami sophistry. You are perfectly aware that words have consequences, and that there is no shortage of Ismalofascist demagogues eager to pounce on absurdly overblown statements like this, as well as outright falsehoods such as the "flushing Korans down the toilet" canard. People die as a result of sloppy rhetoric and sloppy (or non-existent) fact-checking, Swami.



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4325465 - 06/22/05 05:31 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

wow, no we actually saved lives by correcting the sergeant's words.

:penis:

i find it funny that overall in this thread, the debate was that "genocide" isn't a correct definition of the killing of Iraqis. 


anyway, just so you know, now journalists and reporters that were in Iraq are being excluded by the Iraqi government.
We're that much closer to knowing what's really going on over there.

hehe, i guess the american government learned it's lesson from the Vietnam war...


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4325629 - 06/22/05 06:09 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Vex said:

"Let me ask you this...Why would someone lie to make himself look like a cold blooded murderer?"

SHOW ME THE $$$


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Edited by Phred (06/22/05 06:58 PM)


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4379957 - 07/07/05 03:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to you Phreddy, but Elm Street had a few other things to keep me busy.

Well Mr Critical Thinker, it sounds like you have it all worked out. However I still won't go with you, since I am willing to even turn my critical eye on you.

The memory hole is easier and easier to operate in this digital age and artillery is just as damaging.

Bush lost that election, face it. Bush has so much of the legislative and executive behind him he can almost write blank cheques. :wink:

Not only that, levelling a town is a figure of speech, very few places in the history of man have been truly levelled, Hiroshima being one. There are certainly massive numbers of Iraqis without homes, water, sewage, access to fuel, living amongst the rubble their town once was. Perhaps I took the metaphor too far for your taste, but thats you Mr Not-Critical-Love-My-Laissez-Faire.

As for my primary datum, you don't know what I read, or who I speak to, or where I go Phred :wink:


And one thing is for sure, you clearly have no understanding of the mind set of a 'dead-ender'. And for your information I am not condoning insurgent bombing, whilst criticising the US led military effort. Both are wrong, yet they all love to play tit for tat.....and the corporate thievery.

And besides, who has the right to tell Saddam to step down save his own people? I don't see bold Western missions around the globe removing dictators....no I see general support and creation of these monsters. Saddam became a special case, so a story was fabricated that relied on the arms Donald Rumsfield sold him in the first place. It is not common US policy to remove dictators who do not hold elections....this had nothing to do with that.

This whole thing is crazy - even today's events in London have only benefitted the agenda of one G8 leader, he is GWB. This man never seems to feel the gravitas of situations, throwing his hands into their air red faced and grinning during shock and awe...sitting glazed on planet 9 after the WTC was attacked. What is he about? Does he feel emotions for the right reasons? In his morally naive world who wields the power?

Well Africa and Poverty went straight back off the agenda didn't they.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4380453 - 07/07/05 05:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Collateral damage in this war was a tiny fraction of what it has been in any previous modern war




An afterthought.....I like the way you call it 'collateral damage' - a sheer materialist dehumanising way to express things. Distances you and makes it more paletable doesn't it?

What you mean is tens and tens of thousands, possibly even hundreds of thousands of dead innocent civilians - real people women and children, and of course their men. Real lives. And there is no excuse for this, just as their is no excuse for the barbarity of terrorists.

Oh and lets not forget the nigh on a million killed prior to the invasion by sanctions......collateral damage for this whole seedy afair is actually staggeringly high.

This so called war, this conflict is not as pretty as you paint it to be. For example there were far far fewer civilian deaths in the Falklands war, or conflict as it might be called. These are both examples of modern warfare.

The fact is the US is now an occupying force....having won an unjust war and that spells pain for everyone. The greed of a few is the pain of us all.

EDIT: sentence structure on one sentence


Edited by CJay (07/07/05 05:52 PM)


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4381816 - 07/08/05 12:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

As for my primary datum, you don't know what I read, or who I speak to, or where I go Phred




What you read or who you speak to isn't primary data. Words have meanings. Learn them.

Quote:

And besides, who has the right to tell Saddam to step down save his own people?




Who had the right to declare Hussein the tyrant for life of the Iraqi people? He was a thug who murdered his way to the top of the food chain and maintained his position there through mass murder. You can't seriously be claiming Hussein had the right to do what he did. If you hold that position, there is clearly no point in continuing to hold a rational discussion with you.

Quote:

I don't see bold Western missions around the globe removing dictators....




Which is it? Above you seem to be claiming no one had the right to remove a dictator, now you seem to be bemoaning the fact that no one is removing dictators.

Quote:

Saddam became a special case, so a story was fabricated that relied on the arms Donald Rumsfield sold him in the first place.




See, this is why it's so hard getting through to you -- your grasp of fact is so weak. America didn't arm Hussein.

Quote:

This whole thing is crazy - even today's events in London have only benefitted the agenda of one G8 leader, he is GWB.




How has this "benefitted" Bush? And if it did, so what? Or are you claiming Bush arranged the bombings?

Quote:

What is he about? Does he feel emotions for the right reasons?




Emotions are not tools of cognition.

Quote:

Well Africa and Poverty went straight back off the agenda didn't they.




Apparently not. The G8 conference continues.


Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4381858 - 07/08/05 12:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

An afterthought.....I like the way you call it 'collateral damage' - a sheer materialist dehumanising way to express things. Distances you and makes it more paletable doesn't it?




Unlike you, I am precise in my use of words. "Collateral damage" is what occurs when troops return fire on someone firing RPGs at them from a mosque and a woman held hostage by The Faithful is hit by a ricochet. Primary damage is what occurs when real people -- woman and children, and of course their men -- are the primary targets. You know... the ones on buses and underground stations and stuff.

Quote:

What you mean is tens and tens of thousands, possibly even hundreds of thousands of dead innocent civilians - real people women and children, and of course their men.




Nowhere close to a hundred thousand innocent civilians have been killed since March of 2003 in Iraq. Ten thousand? I'll accept that as being possible. The deadenders have no qualms about killing Iraqi civilians.

Quote:

Oh and lets not forget the nigh on a million killed prior to the invasion by sanctions......collateral damage for this whole seedy afair is actually staggeringly high.




Again, I must point out your propensity to be brainwashed by those with an agenda rather than relying on facts. The sanctions (which were of course entirely Hussein's fault anyway) didn't kill "nigh on a million".

Quote:

This so called war, this conflict is not as pretty as you paint it to be. For example there were far far fewer civilian deaths in the Falklands war, or conflict as it might be called.




There were also far fewer civilian deaths in Granada and Panama.

Quote:

The fact is the US is now an occupying force....




Actually, that is yet another non-fact. The troops of the coalition countries are no longer an occupying force and haven't been since sovereignty was turned over to the Iraqis more than a year ago. The coalition troops will leave when the government of Iraq asks them to. Occupiers don't do that -- they leave when they decide to and not a minute before.


Phred


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4382109 - 07/08/05 01:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The troops of the coalition countries are no longer an occupying force



:crazy2:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4382138 - 07/08/05 01:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Are the US troops in Germany an occupying force? They've been there since the end of WWII. At what point did they cease being an occupying force?

hint -- think "formation of government"


Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4382894 - 07/08/05 06:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

exclusive38 is French. I wonder what he thinks of the French genocide in Rwanda http://www.atsnn.com/story/50105.html


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4386598 - 07/09/05 01:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

P:What you read or who you speak to isn't primary data. Words have meanings

C:As for my primary datum, you don't know what I read, or who I speak to, or where I go Phred




Read the whole sentence, sentences have meanings, discover them.

Quote:

Who had the right to declare Hussein the tyrant for life of the Iraqi people?....Which is it? Above you seem to be claiming no one had the right to remove a dictator, now you seem to be bemoaning the fact that no one is removing dictators.





Its the qualitve value of the choices made, something beyond your grasp quite clearly. Saddam was teed up; many, many of his kind have come before him in this world and remained in power, as well as the US pocket, simply because they cow to US desire.

Quote:

America didn't arm Hussein.




The USA has supplied Hussain. Certainly it was not of the quantity for which he has later been accused, but it is rather ironic don't you think? In fact Saddam possessed no WMD at all, as has become quite clear, it was a ruse to claim his resources for the almighty dollar. Lets remember that was what this war was about, it was about the WMD.

Quote:

are you claiming Bush arranged the (London) bombings?




Nothing of the sort...interesting thought you had there though. However I am claiming that the energetics of the situation are that he, his type and the terrorists need each other. They thrive off each other, they define themselves by each other. They make each other and though they decry each other they subconsciously empower each other.

Quote:

How has this "benefitted" Bush? And if it did, so what?




I think it is obvious how it benefits Bush. He was able to give as little leeway at the talks as possible...and this was made much easier, Bush and co. were never keen to give ground at this summit. Tony Blair, despite his faults, has some kind of conscience and after the Iraq fiasco he is trying to redeem it by welcoming other leaders to the summit and pushing the agenda forward he has. This is not the case with Bush's governent, this is not the direction they want events to be going in.

Quote:

C: Well Africa and Poverty went straight back off the agenda didn't they

P: Apparently not. The G8 conference continues.




Yes you are right, I am pleased they managed to steer some discussion back, however you know as well as I that the momentum was lost and Bush was able to give the minimum to remain at the table, and this became a cinch. Its amazing, 30 years of these talks and this is as far as they have got, pathetic really. Well lets hope it changes, its good now the precedent has been set to invite other world leaders, but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote:

Unlike you, I am precise in my use of words. "Collateral damage" is what occurs when troops return fire on someone firing RPGs at them from a mosque and a woman held hostage by The Faithful is hit by a ricochet. Primary damage is what occurs when real people -- woman and children, and of course their men -- are the primary targets. You know... the ones on buses and underground stations and stuff.




The term 'damage' does not cover the concept of 'death' for me. This doesn't seem at all precise, how can death be a type of damage? Nonsense is the most precise term to describe your use of the word damage. The expressions you use are souless, hollow and meaningless....oh shall we repair these damaged people? Have you ever seen a dead person get repaired Phred?

Quote:

Nowhere close to a hundred thousand innocent civilians have been killed since March of 2003 in Iraq. Ten thousand? I'll accept that as being possible. The deadenders have no qualms about killing Iraqi civilians.




Many more than 10,000 have been killed my friend, the US military doesn't seem to have qualms about killing Iraqi civillians either. In fact Iraqi civillians are the great sufferers here, while the US and the Fundamentalists fight it out to prove their ideologies the actual everyday Iraqis spend their lives in the war zone of the 2 camps. And in fact they are helplessly drawn into the fiasco and forced to join one side or the other...as time goes on they are ever pushed to do this and divided, their unity as a people gone and their land a lawless war ravaged place. Its a hard choice for many of them to make, perhaps one might find the idea of democracy attractive, but then the US army kills one's family and one becomes cynical wondering where the freedom for one is. And vice versa when terrorists strike, and ever more complicated convolusions. I'm sure a lot of people lived reasonably normal lives but now live in a warzone, this makes for a painful existance and this existance is no more free than that under Saddam. The USA brought this new existance to the people. Instead of Shock and Awe's explosive type bombs the USA could have launched an aggressive campaign of bombing with information, food and supplies, water and so forth, building up the strength of the people and allowing them to make their own choices and move their own country forward. This campaign could have been initiated years and years ago, and the cost would have been fractional to the war we are having.

Quote:

Again, I must point out your propensity to be brainwashed by those with an agenda rather than relying on facts. The sanctions (which were of course entirely Hussein's fault anyway) didn't kill "nigh on a million".




'brainwashed by those with an agenda', that's rich coming from you!
I must point out to you that I think you mis judge the difference between us. You see I a free thinker, I hold myself to no political ideology, I am out of that trap. You on the other hand hem yourself in by ideologies and then agressively protect them, you career along looking for some way to define yourself and the rules that make you feel safe. Bouncing from hardcore communist to hardline laissez-faire capitalist and everything in between, joining the groups, pamphleteering etc. Eternally trapped in your constructs. On the other hand I have never done anything of the sort, it seems to me extremely foolish to define oneself in such a way and exclude so many choices and so much of oneself, I prefer to live through my heart. So now here you are desperate to believe whatever you are fed by the living people at the top of your current ideology. There you are hemming in your thoughts and your world, always building boxes to think in.

Quote:

I am right. Collateral damage in this war was a tiny fraction of what it has been in any previous modern war.

...There were also far fewer civilian deaths in Granada and Panama.




...and the Falklands....etc


what are you on about then? Thought you were precise Mr Critical Thinker? You are far less precise with your initial statement here than I ever was in saying Iraqi towns have been levelled. If you look back at my posts you will see the letter from the people of Falluja and they use the term 'levelled' to describe the effect of US bombardment on their city. I am happy to use their terminology.

Quote:

The troops of the coalition countries are no longer an occupying force and haven't been since sovereignty was turned over to the Iraqis more than a year ago. The coalition troops will leave when the government of Iraq asks them to. Occupiers don't do that -- they leave when they decide to and not a minute before.




The government of Iraq serves them, and so they are one force.

You see like you say words have meaning, and people like you and the US government have become experts at playing semantics, parading around deflecting issues with your eternal word games rather than concentrating on the signified and therein the reality.

Quote:

Emotions are not tools of cognition.




What a sad world you live in heartless and wholly material.....emotions may not be tools of cognition per ce, but they are what make us human and ensure we hold decent values. With out them functioning correctly a person can easily become a monster, or simply a heartless megolamaniac with no empathy....or worse.

Peace out :smile:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4386858 - 07/09/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

Saddam was teed up; many, many of his kind have come before him in this world and remained in power, as well as the US pocket, simply because they cow to US desire.




What does his being "teed up" or the fact that he wasn't the first murderous tyrant in history have to do with anything?

You asked: "Besides, who has the right to tell Saddam to step down save his own people?" This implies you hold the same view the UN does -- once someone manages to murder his way to the top he is de facto the legitimate ruler of country X. The simple fact is that if Hussein --one man-- were to have arranged free elections, then stepped down and taken his stolen billions into exile with him in any of a dozen countries willing to offer him sanctuary, there would have been no invasion. No deaths, not even Hussein's.

You and the UN appear to hold the same view: "War is bad, the worst thing imaginable. So, you can butcher as many children as you want, torture as many people as you like, crush as many minorities as you please, treat your women like chattel, lobotomize and execute your homosexuals, grind every religious minority into the dirt, break as many bones and chop off as many limbs as you see fit, and obliterate every human freedom that annoys you: just don't bother your neigbors."

Quote:

The USA has supplied Hussain.




With what? I repeat -- despite your assertions to the contrary, the US didn't arm Hussein. The USSR, France, China and others looked after that. You'd have more credibility in this discussion if you were to stick to fact.

Quote:

In fact Saddam possessed no WMD at all, as has become quite clear, it was a ruse to claim his resources for the almighty dollar.




I repeat, you'd have more credibility in this discussion if you were to stick to fact. Hussein did in fact have chem and bio weaponry as well as chem and bio weaponry programs.

Quote:

Lets remember that was what this war was about, it was about the WMD.




I repeat, you'd have more credibility in this discussion if you were to stick to fact. The war was never just about WMDs. I give you the same challenge as I have given a dozen other discussion opponents in this forum: provide us a link to any speech by either Blair or Bush where WMDs were the only justification given for resuming hostilities. A single speech will do.

Quote:

However I am claiming that the energetics of the situation are that he, his type and the terrorists need each other. They thrive off each other, they define themselves by each other. They make each other and though they decry each other they subconsciously empower each other.




That's a pseudo-psychological fantasy which ignores reality. The terrorists certainly don't need Bush's "type". Islamic terrorism didn't begin when Bush took office. Nor does Bush's "type" need terrorists. He's perfectly capable of being president of the US without terrorists.

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I think it is obvious how it benefits Bush. He was able to give as little leeway at the talks as possible...and this was made much easier, Bush and co. were never keen to give ground at this summit. Tony Blair, despite his faults, has some kind of conscience and after the Iraq fiasco he is trying to redeem it by welcoming other leaders to the summit and pushing the agenda forward he has. This is not the case with Bush's governent, this is not the direction they want events to be going in.




Bush made no secret before the Thursday attacks that he was canceling debt and doubling aid to Africa. He also made no secret before the attack that he had no intention of signing the Kyoto accord. Nothing changed in his stance.

Quote:

The term 'damage' does not cover the concept of 'death' for me. This doesn't seem at all precise, how can death be a type of damage?




Death is the ultimate damage, duh. Damage subsumes a number of subsidiary concepts -- death, injury, psychological trauma, loss of property. I presume you object to the term "casualty" on the same grounds?

Quote:

The expressions you use are souless, hollow and meaningless....oh shall we repair these damaged people?




The expressions I use are accurate. I doubt very much there is a single reader of this forum unaware the term "collateral damage" includes death. You, on the other hand, are more enamored of imprecise and hysterically overblown (and often downright wrong) terms --

....plus a puppet government, plus leveling entire cities like Falluja, plus targeting mosques and the people's cultural identity with missiles and this forced 'freedom'....

marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery

'Mission Accomplished' paegentry.

many places are razed to the ground

they all but destroyed falluja

the Bush camp rigged the 2000 elections...

the USA is a colonising force.

these people are pathological liars

Saddam was teed up

I have been accused of many things in this forum, but no one can can accuse me of not putting forth my views in the clearest and least ambiguous terms possible. I don't hide behind weasel words or dual meanings and I don't use exaggerated and emotionally-loaded catch phrases. You, on the other hand --until caught at it-- claim that you were just using "a figure of speech". Or you say "call it what you will".

Quote:

In fact Iraqi civillians are the great sufferers here...




Of course they are. They've been the greatest sufferers since the Ba'athists seized power. Tell us something we don't already know.

Quote:

... while the US and the Fundamentalists fight it out to prove their ideologies the actual everyday Iraqis spend their lives in the war zone of the 2 camps.




The difference is that the Islamists have an ideology of death, and the Coalition has an ideology of freedom.

Quote:

And in fact they are helplessly drawn into the fiasco and forced to join one side or the other...




Nonsense. The vast majority of Iraqis have "joined" neither side. They just go on with their lives.

Quote:

as time goes on they are ever pushed to do this and divided, their unity as a people gone and their land a lawless war ravaged place.




As it has been since Hussein took power.

Quote:

Its a hard choice for many of them to make, perhaps one might find the idea of democracy attractive, but then the US army kills one's family and one becomes cynical wondering where the freedom for one is.




Just as those European civilians who had family killed in the Allied invasion of Hitler's Europe wondered where their freedom was, eh?



..... to be continued....


Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4386863 - 07/09/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

.... continued.....

CJay writes:

Quote:

'brainwashed by those with an agenda', that's rich coming from you!
I must point out to you that I think you mis judge the difference between us. You see I a free thinker, I hold myself to no political ideology, I am out of that trap. You on the other hand hem yourself in by ideologies and then agressively protect them, you career along looking for some way to define yourself and the rules that make you feel safe.




You think of yourself as "open-minded", I take it. There is such a thing as being so "open-minded" that whenever one tilts one's head, one's brains fall out.

The only agenda I have is that of individual rights.

Quote:

Bouncing from hardcore communist to hardline laissez-faire capitalist and everything in between, joining the groups, pamphleteering etc. Eternally trapped in your constructs.




I have no idea who you are describing. It certainly isn't me.

Quote:

On the other hand I have never done anything of the sort, it seems to me extremely foolish to define oneself in such a way and exclude so many choices and so much of oneself, I prefer to live through my heart.




Which explains your disdain for facts.

Quote:

So now here you are desperate to believe whatever you are fed by the living people at the top of your current ideology. There you are hemming in your thoughts and your world, always building boxes to think in.




That's a very pretty pseudo-psychoanalysis. To whom does it apply?

Quote:

The government of Iraq serves them, and so they are one force.




Incorrect. The reverse is true. The coalition force serve at the pleasure of the Iraqi government. The instant the Iraqi government tells them to go, they will go.

Quote:

You see like you say words have meaning, and people like you and the US government have become experts at playing semantics, parading around deflecting issues with your eternal word games rather than concentrating on the signified and therein the reality.




Ah. The standard "projection" ploy.

You are the one attempting to distort reality with your sloppy, emotionally-laden "descriptions" of what your preconceptions tell you must be the case. I, on the other hand, rely on fact. I don't play word games -- I speak rationally and accurately.

Quote:

What a sad world you live in heartless and wholly material...




LOL! Yet more pseudo-psychological "analysis" from one who claims as a "free thinker" to have no ideology.

I don't say I don't experience emotions. I correctly point out that emotions are not tools of cognition.

Quote:

...but they are what make us human and ensure we hold decent values.




Choosing your values on the basis of feelings leads to situations like the current one in Iraq. Hussein, for example, felt he had the right to attempt becoming a modern day Saladin. The Iraqi people are still paying for that.

Quote:

With out them functioning correctly a person can easily become a monster, or simply a heartless megolamaniac with no empathy....or worse.




As is certainly the case with the deadenders currently slaughtering Iraqi civilians due to the "decent values" they chose through emotional means.




Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4389050 - 07/10/05 04:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Him using the word "genocide" is as accurate as George Bush using the word "liberate".


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Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4389439 - 07/10/05 11:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So, you can butcher as many children as you want, torture as many people as you like, crush as many minorities as you please, treat your women like chattel,




Cut the melodrama. Women in Iraq were treated a damn sight better under Saddam than they are in US backed dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia. Uzbekistan, yet another US ally, boils it's opponents to death.

Quote:

The war was never just about WMDs. I give you the same challenge as I have given a dozen other discussion opponents in this forum: provide us a link to any speech by either Blair or Bush where WMDs were the only justification given for resuming hostilities. A single speech will do.





The situation is very clear. If Saddam Hussein agrees to disarm Iraq of all chemical, or biological, or nuclear weapons programmes and capability then conflict will be avoided

INTERVIEWER:

But Resolution 1441 doesn't call for regime change. If the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein will comply fully, can you convince the American Administration and can you trust the Iraqi regime?

PRIME MINISTER:

So far as our objective, it is disarmament, not regime change - that is our objective....I have got no doubt Saddam is very bad for Iraq, but on the other hand I have got no doubt either that the purpose of our challenge from the United Nations is disarmament of weapons of mass destruction, it is not regime change.


Tony Blair - Nov 14 2002.

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The difference is that the Islamists have an ideology of death, and the Coalition has an ideology of freedom.





Could you expand on what you mean by these meaningless Fox news buzz phrases? What exactly is an "ideology of freedom"?

Quote:

As it has been since Hussein took power.





Nonsense. Read up on the history of Iraq in the 1970's. Compare and contrast living standards, literacy rates and public services with other middle eastern countries. You'll be surprised.

Quote:

Just as those European civilians who had family killed in the Allied invasion of Hitler's Europe wondered where their freedom was, eh?





Please don't dare to compare the occupation of Iraq with the fight to free Europe of Hitler.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4397038 - 07/12/05 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

As IsaacHunt points out, "So far as our objective, it is disarmament, not regime change - that is our objective....I have got no doubt Saddam is very bad for Iraq, but on the other hand I have got no doubt either that the purpose of our challenge from the United Nations is disarmament of weapons of mass destruction, it is not regime change." Tony Blair - Nov 14 2002.

Once again you are wrong Phred.

You constantly assert your critical skills and precision yet your argument is continually broken and weak.

Quote:

The expressions I use are accurate. I doubt very much there is a single reader of this forum unaware the term "collateral damage" includes death. You, on the other hand, are more enamored of imprecise and hysterically overblown (and often downright wrong) terms --




Phred I have no doubt you have convinced yourself, as those who are trying to push a certain agenda have, that your terms are correct, but infact they are adumbrations and they mask meaning. Not only that you are so often downright wrong yourself.

Quote:

I am right. Collateral damage in this war was a tiny fraction of what it has been in any previous modern war.




No you are utterly wrong in making that statement Phred.

Quote:

Death is the ultimate damage, duh. Damage subsumes a number of subsidiary concepts -- death, injury, psychological trauma, loss of property. I presume you object to the term "casualty" on the same grounds?




No you are wrong again Phred. A living subject is only damaged while it is still alive - it means injury, loss of function, harm....not death. Death is not the ultimate damage, if one is to extend the concept there would be collateral death when there was no collateral left to damage.

The concept of damage never holds death as a subsidary unless one is talking about damage to a wider body which may have smaller parts. I.e. in mechanical terms, the damage to the car was irrepairable. The only time this is really used to speak of human death is in dehumanising terms - mechanising terms. For example, we have damaged the western flank, might be a term used in a war. That is why it becomes so easy to dehumanise and accept the death of some large number of Iraqi people here by calling it 'collateral damage'. Of course so far you have only damaged the machine which is innocent Iraqi society (the enemy?) - only damaged not killed...(notice that, the difference between damage and kill..last time you swatted a fly and left it squashed was it only damaged, or was it killed dead?)..... try looking at the human parts, the people themselves included in your 'damage' they are all dead not damaged. They are not parts of machinery, they are dead people.

Quote:

I don't hide behind weasel words or dual meanings




What like 'liberate' 'damage' and other words chosen to mask meaning. You like the governments of the world use words to hide where possible and dehumanise where necessary. 'Damage' is hardly the word to use when describing 'innocent civillian death toll' since it is hardly unambiguous, look up damage in the dictionary - damage does not cover death of the subject. likewise 'collateral' is hardly the clear word one would pick to mean 'human beings'. Nice ambiguous newspeak.

Quote:

I don't use exaggerated and emotionally-loaded catch phrases. You, on the other hand --until caught at it-- claim that you were just using "a figure of speech". Or you say "call it what you will".




Likewise I will not be describing the deaths resulting from the London bombings as 'primary damage' or any other kind of damage. Its not the speak one uses unless one is dehumanising. I think you will find that people on this forum do understand what you mean. :thumbdown:

Quote:

C:In fact Iraqi civillians are the great sufferers here...

P:Of course they are. They've been the greatest sufferers since the Ba'athists seized power. Tell us something we don't already know.




In other words you are wrong again. The effect of this invasion has not brought any benefit to the Iraqi people. In fact now they do not have any rule of law whatsoever, it has been lost, the very thing GWB says he is bringing left the day his troops arrived. Last Thursday in London is like every single day in Baghdad since the Coalition arrived....and you call that progress?

Quote:

The difference is that the Islamists have an ideology of death, and the Coalition has an ideology of freedom.




Oh give up with the emotionally laden claptrap Mr Critical Thinker, Mr Precise.

Quote:

The vast majority of Iraqis have "joined" neither side. They just go on with their lives.




So that explains the burgeoning insurgency, as well as the huge queues to join the police? I'm sure they are trying hard to get on with their lives but I think it is quite difficult when you have bombs going off around you everyday, can't get the food or water or fuel you need and live amongst rubble with no proper sewerage. They may be proud and strong in the face of it, but I think: 'just go on with their lives' is a pretty savage way to prescribe such a situation.

Quote:

C:as time goes on they are ever pushed to do this and divided, their unity as a people gone and their land a lawless war ravaged place

P:As it has been since Hussein took power.




As IsaacHunt says.....

Quote:

Just as those European civilians who had family killed in the Allied invasion of Hitler's Europe wondered where their freedom was, eh?




As IsaacHunt says.....

What a poor comparison, and you think I'm fond of overblown emotional catchphrases eh?

to be continued...


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4397045 - 07/12/05 08:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

...continued...

Quote:

You think of yourself as "open-minded", I take it. There is such a thing as being so "open-minded" that whenever one tilts one's head, one's brains fall out.




I think you will find my brain is quite securely in my head :cool:

Quote:

The only agenda I have is that of individual rights.




Nice to see that progessing so beautifully around the globe with the motions you support. A lot of brains falling out of heads in that quest though! LOL You have the right to be 'liberated' LOL! People who come up with this shit must have their brains in their butts, they can tilt their head anyway  they like and nothing will fall out, not even a word of wisdom; just look at Bush.

Quote:

I have no idea who you are describing. It certainly isn't me.




Come on don't play coy, remember back when you used to be Pinky you confessed to me one time in a thread. Unfortunately some large number of my posts seem to be missing when I look at them, at this current moment only 330 appear for me to look back at whilst my actual postings at this moment number 920. The ones missing are not purely chronological either...strange, perhaps it is some kind of data loss from the server? What's the story there mod?

In any case we were talking one time and now the thread is not available in my posts history, in any case it was our WTC discussion, the one you had to change your name not long after. You took a fatherly approach briefly, opening up to me, thinking I was a leftie and thinking I was like a younger you. You admitted to me that you had tried all the political doctrines from the far left to the right getting fully involved in the associations all the way....you even told me the charming story about a world controlled by invisible monkeys pulling invisible strings. You were wrong about me though Pinky, but the invisible monkeys put a smile on my face. :tongue2:

Quote:

Which explains your disdain for facts.




No Pinky, I have no disdain for facts, I have a disdain for one sided corporate media, and a corporate whore government with a president who controls too much of each branch and writes blank cheques.

Their very one sided view, their agenda, I do not take as fact.

The USA has supplied Hussain by the way.  encyclopedia along withthe rest of the West....

some details of US weapons supplies to Saddam

You are wrong again Pinky...

Quote:

I repeat -- despite your assertions to the contrary, the US didn't arm Hussein. The USSR, France, China and others looked after that. You'd have more credibility in this discussion if you were to stick to fact.




I repeat -- The US armed Hussain.

Hussain used other suppliers too, the governemtns of the world that could manufacture these things revelled in the death that came from their business; for it only meant more business! And now look! For the US it eventually meant a whole country and a shit load of oil! WOOHOO! That'll keep the right people in pocket.

Quote:

Hussein did in fact have chem and bio weaponry as well as chem and bio weaponry programs.




Yeh back when the USA supplied him maybe, but that was all long gone. All he had at the time of invasion was pride....oh and what was it? 2 lowly and very lonely sarin shells! Ahaha - imagine if we had waited for his devastating attack, what a chortle that would have been as he launched his supposed WMD.

Quote:

Bush made no secret before the Thursday attacks that he was canceling debt and doubling aid to Africa. He also made no secret before the attack that he had no intention of signing the Kyoto accord. Nothing changed in his stance.




Bush has not cancelled African debt what has happened is that 18 countries within Africa have had their debt 'cancelled', this is not the same. For a start, the promise to deliver by 2010 is like waiting 5 years before responding to the tsunami, and like all previous G8 meetings allows a trail off to inaction. Much more needs to be in done in terms of the number of countries, the amount of money and the eradication of conditionalities, especially if one is to call it 'cancelling debt and doubling aid to Africa' in any true sense. Sheesh! And you say I stretch my use of language, just look at those guys and you as you lap up their agenda. Africa will stay poor under the moves these 8 have secured.

The debt relief package will force privatisation and a liberal economic agenda. I'm sure you think that sounds great Pinky but actually like other system addicts you will see your 'good for one is good for all' approach fail (all but the rich), for it does not actually empower individual rights. In fact its failure almost seems deliberate on the part of the Western leaders, for it keeps Africa down while they carry on with a new facelift looking philanthropic.

Developing countries must "tackle corruption, boost private sector development, and attract investment" and remove "impediments to private investment both domestic and foreign." said the G7 finance ministers in June this year.

Subjecting vital services in developing countries to the rigours of market forces can have very serious consequences

HIPC (Highly Indebted Poor Country) status comes with strings, for instance Mosambique had to privatise its water supply to get it, as did Tanzania. Both fiascos which leave people in disaster zones as well as with less accessible water; and no development.

The World Bank also encouraged Mozambique to increase its user charges for health care, this shows just how damaging liberal economics can be on the poorest nations - you don't pay you die. Hey thats proper Save Africa Stuff isn't it?

Money cannot be made from poverty stricken people and their (ahem)individual right to water, and in other cases education and or medicine is denied through the blind persuance of single minded political ideology.

Quote:

You are the one attempting to distort reality with your sloppy, emotionally-laden "descriptions" of what your preconceptions tell you must be the case. I, on the other hand, rely on fact. I don't play word games -- I speak rationally and accurately.




You are wrong again - I think it is quite clear from this post alone, not to mention this thread, that you are sloppy, you use emotionally charged expression to advance an agenda, you state untruths as if they were facts, you play word games and so forth.

My emotions are well integrated into my personality and I am level headed Pinky, that is quite obvious to all.

Feelings got us into this alright, like you say, the feeling that Saddam could launch a WMD attack in 45mins (top intel!), feelings that he had in operation "literally thousands of sites" (Tony Blair 2003) producing the weapons that would kill us all. The crystal ball got us into this.

Wheras rationale would have waited for the UN inspections team that was progessing satisfactoraly according to its leader....yet about to reveal the facts.

I do not believe my preconceptions, I challenge them. Its fun, you should try.

Laters dude :cool:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4397167 - 07/12/05 08:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever, dude.

I'm quite content to let the readers of this thread decide who is being emotional and overwrought and who is being rational and factual.



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4397228 - 07/12/05 08:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

IsaacHunt writes:

Quote:

Cut the melodrama. Women in Iraq were treated a damn sight better under Saddam than they are in US backed dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia.




The ones not being gang-raped by Hussein's goon squads. Interesting you chose to focus on a single phrase and let the whole rest of it slide by. And of course, the UN's stance on this kind of thing is not confined to Iraq. The UN is doing nothing about Muslim mistreatment of women in any country.

Quote:

INTERVIEWER:

But Resolution 1441 doesn't call for regime change. If the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein will comply fully, can you convince the American Administration and can you trust the Iraqi regime?





I asked not for an isolated line or two from an interview where the interviewer decides which questions are asked, I requested a link to a speech by Bush or Blair. I'm still waiting. While I'm waiting, perhaps you could provide us a link to that interview. It might be interesting to see what other reasons Blair gave, assuming the interviewer covered that.

Quote:

What exactly is an "ideology of freedom"?




One in which the populace is governed by representatives chosen by the populace. One in which the actions of those chosen representatives is limited by a written constitution.

Quote:

Nonsense. Read up on the history of Iraq in the 1970's. Compare and contrast living standards, literacy rates and public services with other middle eastern countries. You'll be surprised.





I was responding to CJay's characterization of Iraq and Iraqis -- "...their unity as a people gone and their land a lawless war ravaged place."

There was no law in Iraq other than what Hussein decided was law. Their was no unity -- the Sunni minority ruled over the Shi'ite majority. And the invasion of Iran followed by the invasion of Kuwait left the country ravaged by war.

Quote:

Please don't dare to compare the occupation of Iraq with the fight to free Europe of Hitler.




Why not? Because you have no rebuttal for it? Were there or were there not thousands of civilians killed in the Allied invasion of Hitler's Europe? When the Allies killed the families of Europeans in countries occupied by Hitler's Germany, don't you think some of them might have "become cynical wondering where the freedom for one is"? If not, why not?

As has been pointed out here many many times before, Hitler was no threat whatsoever to the US or to Canada. Those civilians were killed by soldiers and airmen who had no business being there at all.


Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4398377 - 07/13/05 02:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

who is being rational and factual

Obviously you were far from factual about the "find me Bush or Blair saying it was about WMD". I'm wary of your claim to have challenged a "dozen" opponents on this before I proved you wrong too. I'm sure someone else would have found examples of Blair saying it was about WMD and not regime change.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4398887 - 07/13/05 07:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The ones not being gang-raped by Hussein's goon squads. Interesting you chose to focus on a single phrase and let the whole rest of it slide by.

Even more interesting is that you fail to actually addess the point made (yet again) and instead obsfucate by alluding to gang-rapes. Australia is the world leader in rape and Iraq barely registers according to  web page .

American women have it pretty good, at least those not being gang-raped by Naval cadets and frat house boys...  :rolleyes:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4398975 - 07/13/05 09:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

IsaacHunt writes:

Quote:

Obviously you were far from factual about the "find me Bush or Blair saying it was about WMD".




Obviously you have a reading comprehension problem. Of course it's not hard to find a quote from Bush or Blair saying WMDs were one of the justifications for resuming hostilities. I suggest you re-read the following:

Quote:

I give you the same challenge as I have given a dozen other discussion opponents in this forum: provide us a link to any speech by either Blair or Bush where WMDs were the only justification given for resuming hostilities.






Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Swami]
    #4398988 - 07/13/05 09:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Swami writes:

Quote:

Even more interesting is that you fail to actually addess the point made (yet again) and instead obsfucate by alluding to gang-rapes.




More standard Swami dodging of the point under discussion.

For one thing, there is no "alleging" that Hussein commonly used gang-rape of women --often with male relatives forced to watch-- as a torture technique. It's a well-established fact. Anyone who attempts to deny this fact is being intellectually dishonest.

For another thing, the point being addressed was the UN attitude towards tyrants. Hussein's use of gang rape against women was just one of many other torture techniques he perpetrated against Iraqis. The UN position (and that of non-interventionists in general) is that once a murderous thug has fought his way to the top of the food chain in a given country he is then untouchable by any save the residents of that country -- providing he restricts his actions to within the borders of that country.

You are well aware that the UN rejects assassination as a way of instigating regime change in a rogue state. You are also aware that the UN rejects outside interference in the political process of rogue states -- no rabble-rousing by outside agitators, no substantive support for opposition parties, no shipping of arms to opposition. The only thing the UN allows is carefully worded statements of disapproval.



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4399272 - 07/13/05 12:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The ones not being gang-raped by Hussein's goon squads. Interesting you chose to focus on a single phrase and let the whole rest of it slide by. And of course, the UN's stance on this kind of thing is not confined to Iraq. The UN is doing nothing about Muslim mistreatment of women in any country.


Irrelevant.

I asked not for an isolated line or two from an interview where the interviewer decides which questions are asked,

But not the way Blair answers.

I requested a link to a speech by Bush or Blair

So you accept Blair said it but you want him to have said it in a "speech"? Any reason why?

perhaps you could provide us a link to that interview

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/UK/PMO/uk-pmo-blair-111402.htm

Why not? Because you have no rebuttal for it?

No, because it is silly and I am pressed for time.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4399288 - 07/13/05 12:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The UN position (and that of non-interventionists in general) is that once a murderous thug has fought his way to the top of the food chain in a given country he is then untouchable by any save the residents of that country -- providing he restricts his actions to within the borders of that country.


Could you direct us to the section of the UN charter that states this? Thank you.

You are well aware that the UN rejects assassination as a way of instigating regime change in a rogue state

As does the US.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4399353 - 07/13/05 12:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Sigh.

CJay's position, and the position of so many others here, is that this war was "sold" on the issue WMDs. Since as yet no significant stockpiles of ready-to-go WMDs have been found within Iraq's borders post-March of 2003, they then trumpet that Bush and Blair's justification (singular) for taking action was bogus, since "the justification" hasn't panned out yet.

My point was that this war was never "sold" on the existence of WMDs alone. Admittedly, Blair leaned on the WMD issue more heavily than Bush did, because Blair was more concerned with getting the UN on board than Bush was. But even then, whenever Blair gave an address explaining why he felt it was necessary to resume hostilities in Iraq, he recited a list of reasons.

Did Blair mention WMDs as one of the reasons in each of his speeches on the subject? Sure he did. Did Blair ever make a speech where WMDs were the only reason given? Nope.


Phred


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InvisibleIsaacHunt
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4399930 - 07/13/05 03:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Did Blair mention WMDs as one of the reasons in each of his speeches on the subject? Sure he did

He said if Saddam disarmed conflict would be avoided. That's making it pretty clear.

Did Blair ever make a speech where WMDs were the only reason given? Nope.


Can you tell us what difference it makes if he said it in a speech or an interview?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4399954 - 07/13/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

All I know that if Hussein did not laugh in the face of the UN repeatedly; and give weapon inspectors anything but a hard time this would not be an issue right now.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4399998 - 07/13/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You can blame Saddam for a lot of things but not George Bush laughing in the face of the UN, occupying Iraq and then robbing it blind.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4400008 - 07/13/05 04:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps you should do some research instead of just giving a blind knee-jerk reaction to a situation you know nothing about.

Though we gave the wrong reason for doing so, we were right for going into Iraq.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4400092 - 07/13/05 04:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Let?s just make this clear for everyone out there. I have heard so much about the ?way this war was sold,? and how we were ?tricked? by the WMD claims.



IRAQ WAR FOR DUMMIES



Here is the way the reasons for using force in Iraq were OFFICIALLY given to the American people via our congress:


(in order written in the resolution)


1. Iraq?s past war of aggression and illegal occupation of Kuwait in 1990.
2. Iraq?s failure to abide by the unequivocal sanctions agreed to after 1991.
3.Iraq?s history of possessing chemical and biological weapons and advanced nuclear weapons development program (and failure to prove complete destruction of such weapons)
4.Iraq?s flagrant violation of the cease fire
5.Iraq?s attempt to thwart efforts of weapons inspectors up until 1998
6. U.S. Congressional resolution conclusion that Iraq was continuing WMD programs in 1998
7. Iraq posed a continuing threat to the national security of the U.S, international peace and security in the Persian Gulf regions
8. Iraq continued to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability
9. Iraq supported and harbored terrorist organizations
10. Iraq engaged in brutal repression of its civilian population
11. Iraq refused to release, repatriate or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman
12. Iraq failed to return property wrongfully seized from Kuwait
13. Iraq has demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people
14. Iraq has demonstrated hostility toward and willingness to attack the United States by attempting to assassinate former President Bush
15. Iraq has demonstrated hostility toward and willingness to attack the United States and Coalition Forces by firing on many thousands of occasions on US and Coalition Armed Forces enforcing United Nations resolutions
16. Members of al Qaida are known to be in Iraq
17. Iraq continued to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens
18. The attacks of September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations
19. Iraq?s demonstrated WMD capability (noted above), willingness to use WMD (noted above) and the risk to use or provide such weapons to terrorists (noted above)
20.UN Security Council Resolution 678 authorized the use of all necessary means to enforce UN SC resolution 660 and subsequent resolutions
21. The Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expresses the policy of the US to support efforts to remove the current Iraqi regime from power and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime
22. It is in the national security of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region


So what? Reason #19 turned out not to be immediate and imminent enough


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4400099 - 07/13/05 04:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do you think we would be in Iraq if Bush had never mentioned WMDs to the American people?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Gijith]
    #4400198 - 07/13/05 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)


yes because of 9/11

Those who wanted to go into Iraq did so for multiple reasons.

Those who did not want to go into Iraq did so for multiple reasons.

and I guess also believed that stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction would be found.

On 9/11, it was box cutters and airplanes, not weapons of mass destruction that did the damage.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Edited by lonestar2004 (07/13/05 05:09 PM)


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4400620 - 07/13/05 06:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

For one thing, there is no "alleging" that Hussein commonly used gang-rape of women --often with male relatives forced to watch-- as a torture technique.

Seems you have a hard time conflagrating "some women" with all Iraqi women. Is gang-rape of a few worse than widespread rape of many? (such as in Australia). Should we now invade Australia to protect the women there?

Readers note: there will not be a direct response from Phred aka PSM aka...


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Swami]
    #4400684 - 07/13/05 06:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You're still dodging the point.

I gave a long list of human rights abuses. You cherry-picked one out of that list, then tried to conflate criminal rape with state-sanctioned torture. Are there gangs of Muslim rapists in Sweden? Sure there are. Is criminal rape a problem in Australia? So they tell me. Does the government of Sweden or the government of Australia round up women to be raped or do they round up rapists and toss them in jail?

As a side note, you may want to check your dictionary for the difference between "conflate" and "conflagrate".



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4400699 - 07/13/05 06:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's not a coincidence that oil-rich men wage war on an oil-rich land.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4402011 - 07/14/05 02:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes because of 9/11


Oh please, only the most deluded of Bush supporters believe Iraq had any connection with 9/11. The bulk of the 9/11 plotters came from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq.

The fact is that without the WMD propaganda Iraq would not have been invaded.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4402032 - 07/14/05 02:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I gave a long list of human rights abuses

Which we pointed out could just as easily be done with US backed dictatorships such as Saudi or Uzbekistan.

Is criminal rape a problem in Australia?

Are you trying to say rape is legal in Iraq?

Does the government of Sweden or the government of Australia round up women to be raped or do they round up rapists and toss them in jail?


Before you get carried away with this could you give us direct evidence of how often the government of Iraq "rounds up" women to be raped?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Adamist]
    #4402123 - 07/14/05 02:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Adamist said:
It's not a coincidence that oil-rich men wage war on an oil-rich land.




California is rich in oil. There was an oil field a block from my old house. Let's invade Huntington BEACH!!!


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4402385 - 07/14/05 04:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You are dodging the point. Husseins's Ba'aathist regime's rape of women as a torture technique was just one of a number of techniques used as a matter of course before that regime was removed from power -- not by the UN, but in spite of it.



Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4402516 - 07/14/05 07:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

20.UN Security Council Resolution 678 authorized the use of all necessary means to enforce UN SC resolution 660 and subsequent resolutions

Please show where in the resolution it gave the US permission to wage war without UN consent. *Prepare for standard dodge on a point the poster brought up*

So basically the US went into Iraq because of a UN violation and in doing so violated a basic tenet of the UN Charter.

Note: EVERY SINGLE TIME I BRING THIS UP this point is dodged by Phred and others even when they ask me to point out the paragraph in the Charter and I display it in print. Of course, Phred only asks to put the question off and then never responds.

This type of dodge is indicative that many people don't believe in what they claim to believe in.

Also please show the timeline when the plight of the Iraqi people and democracy was first was brought up. Funny, but it was NOT mentioned as a reason until everything was well underway and yet - miraculously - became the MAIN reason (according to Bush & Co.) as to why America went to Iraq.

Any aware person knows this to be bullshit as there are far worse regimes in terms of humanitarian violations, yet no war plans are being drawn up.

Seems logic and reason is not a necessary part of discussing politics. Just state your side and dig in no matter what contrary points are made.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Swami]
    #4402668 - 07/14/05 09:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And again Swami dodges the issue. The issue is the UN's non-response to murderous tyrants.

Did UNSC Resolution 678 authorize by name any of the countries who resumed hostilities with Iraq in March of 2003 to do so? Nope.

Quote:

So basically the US went into Iraq because of a UN violation.




No, the US Congress listed a whole whap of other reasons as well. See lonestar's post.

Quote:

Also please show the timeline when the plight of the Iraqi people and democracy was first was brought up. Funny, but it was NOT mentioned as a reason until everything was well underway and yet - miraculously - became the MAIN reason (according to Bush & Co.) as to why America went to Iraq.





I'm not sure when the issue of democracy was first brought up. But in every one of Bush's speeches to the American people on the subject, the plight of the Iraqi people was brought up. And you know that as well as I do.

Quote:

Any aware person knows this to be bullshit as there are far worse regimes in terms of humanitarian violations, yet no war plans are being drawn up.




How do you know that? How do you know the Pentagon has no contingency plan for, say, the invasion of North Korea? What we do know for certain is the UN isn't drawing up any war plans for dealing with even a single one of those "far worse" regimes.

I agree with your observation that there is no lack of other murderous tyrants in the world who routinely violate the human rights of their subjects. Oddly, all of them rule countries considered to be UN members in good standing. Oddly, the UN has been as impotent at altering their behavior as they were at altering Hussein's behavior.

Which, of course, has been my point all along. You will note that my description of the UN's approach to murderous tyrants --

Quote:

You and the UN appear to hold the same view: "War is bad, the worst thing imaginable. So, you can butcher as many children as you want, torture as many people as you like, crush as many minorities as you please, treat your women like chattel, lobotomize and execute your homosexuals, grind every religious minority into the dirt, break as many bones and chop off as many limbs as you see fit, and obliterate every human freedom that annoys you: just don't bother your neigbors."




-- applies to quite a few more rulers of UN member nations than just Saddam Hussein.

As a side note, did you ever get around to providing us with your own definition of terrorism?




Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Swami]
    #4402808 - 07/14/05 11:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The UN hahahahaahahaahaahaahaah

I am going TO research the Patriot Act and see if we can declare war on the UN. It's not enough to just "get us out" of the UN. The monster must be destroyed.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4404534 - 07/14/05 06:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, the US Congress listed a whole whap of other reasons as well. See lonestar's post.


But you do grasp that the only LEGAL reason was that the non-existent WMD posed a threat? That's why Bush and Blair were so keen to sell this fantasy to the UN.

But in every one of Bush's speeches to the American people on the subject, the plight of the Iraqi people was brought up

But the only LEGAL reason that had a prayer of getting through the UN was WMD. The UN describes launching wars of aggression as the supreme crime against humanity. It HAD to be self-defence from WMD. Certainly without the WMD fantasy Blair could not have gone to war which would have put Bush in a completely different position.

How do you know the Pentagon has no contingency plan for, say, the invasion of North Korea

I don't know about North Korea but it certainly appears to have no contingency plan for deposing the savage dictators of Saudi Arabia or Uzbekistan because it is supporting them both.

You will note that my description of the UN's approach to murderous tyrants --

YOUR description of the UN. That doesn't make it accurate. Indeed it would perhaps be more accurate as a description of Bush's support for Saudi.

As a side note, did you ever get around to providing us with your own definition of terrorism?

I don't know but I can't remember you defining why you considered Blair stating something in an interview is different from him stating it in a speech.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4901821 - 11/06/05 10:24 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
So his reason for publishing a book arent to make money.....but to spread the "truth" about whats going on in Iraq :rolleyes:






Marine who confessed to abuses lied to gain celebrity!

http://www.sltrib.com/nationworld/ci_3188630


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4901847 - 11/06/05 10:30 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Well we are by definition. And we haev been over the past 10 years.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Guerrilla0726]
    #4903700 - 11/07/05 10:46 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Guerrilla0726 said:
Well we are by definition. And we haev been over the past 10 years.




yea don't let the facts get in the way.

this story was "fake but accurate"......


kinda like Saddam having WM D'S "fake but accurate"

:rofl2:            :rofl2:        :rofl2:


:rofl2:          :rofl2:          :rofl2:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Guerrilla0726]
    #4903731 - 11/07/05 10:59 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Guerrilla0726 said:
Well we are by definition. And we haev been over the past 10 years.




Apparently you have no idea what the definition of genocide is.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4905546 - 11/07/05 08:03 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

IsaacHunt said:
No, the US Congress listed a whole whap of other reasons as well. See lonestar's post.


But you do grasp that the only LEGAL reason was that the non-existent WMD posed a threat? That's why Bush and Blair were so keen to sell this fantasy to the UN.




Well this is actually an ignorant lie. The biggest LEGAL reason was that he was in violation of several UN resolutions. That is if you consider the UN to have any weight.
Quote:


But in every one of Bush's speeches to the American people on the subject, the plight of the Iraqi people was brought up




And this is of no consequence? So he's a nice guy who cares about people even if they're not Americans. They want us out? OK Fair enough. Are they sorry we cut the bitch out? Homey don't think so

Quote:



But the only LEGAL reason that had a prayer of getting through the UN was WMD. The UN describes launching wars of aggression as the supreme crime against humanity. It HAD to be self-defence from WMD. Certainly without the WMD fantasy Blair could not have gone to war which would have put Bush in a completely different position.




No. You are ignorant and mistaken.
Quote:



How do you know the Pentagon has no contingency plan for, say, the invasion of North Korea




I should hope they do
Quote:



I don't know about North Korea but it certainly appears to have no contingency plan for deposing the savage dictators of Saudi Arabia or Uzbekistan because it is supporting them both.




It will be a cold day in hell (I hope) when idiots are privy to our security planning. Oh, fuck, it is a little chilly, Kerry is on the Senate intelligence commitee. John Kerry, bringing intelligence down one IQ point at a time. Every month.
Quote:



You will note that my description of the UN's approach to murderous tyrants --

YOUR description of the UN. That doesn't make it accurate. Indeed it would perhaps be more accurate as a description of Bush's support for Saudi.

As a side note, did you ever get around to providing us with your own definition of terrorism?

I don't know but I can't remember you defining why you considered Blair stating something in an interview is different from him stating it in a speech.




Whatever. Stay on topic.


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OfflineGuerrilla0726
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4906084 - 11/07/05 09:42 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Ok well there was some estimate by some university a few months ago that said its likely that 100,000 killed. 100,000 is practically a genocide, and dont' forget to throw in all those killed from the sanctions. ANd if you want to go further, count the bodies killed by the weapons that we gave Saddaam. And if you want to go further.... eh thats enough.

I bet you if 10,000 got killed in USA it would get called a genocide.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6565%20


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Guerrilla0726]
    #4906096 - 11/07/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

If you had any idea of the definition of genocide, you would realize that genocide has to be the intentional killing of people.

It doesn't matter how many people die, if it's not intentional wiping out of an entire group, it's not genocide. It's actually a legal definition. Something isn't "pretty much" a genocide. It either is or isn't.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4906279 - 11/07/05 10:20 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Exelent post!
I found lots more info on the subject just by writing this guys name.


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OfflineGuerrilla0726
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Yatchak]
    #4917544 - 11/10/05 01:07 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Eh, fine I"ll give it to you..... since the intent isn't to kill the people then its not a genocide. So from now on you can have thousands of people die as long as its indirect intent.

It doesn't have to be the wipeout of an entire group. If there are 30 million jews in the world and only 6 million get killed, then thats not a total wipeout.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gendef.htm


Edited by Guerrilla0726 (11/10/05 01:08 PM)


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Guerrilla0726]
    #4917740 - 11/10/05 01:54 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

I know it doesn't have to kill everyone to be genocide. That doesn't change the fact that what happened wasn't a genocide.

It was an atrocity against human life and a horrible event, but not a genocide.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4918182 - 11/10/05 03:41 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

genocide, massacre, killings, casualies...

why all the games with semantics here? jesus, its like a wannabe congress in this thread.

is there a mod election coming up or something?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: kotik]
    #4918203 - 11/10/05 03:45 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

No, it is a matter of international law. If genocide occurs and is recognized, it is the responsibility of the international community to do something to stop it.

It's not something I made up. It was created by a holocause survivor a long time ago.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4918211 - 11/10/05 03:46 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Plus, if every emotional person uses genocide or evokes the Holocaust every time civilians die, it takes away from the atrocities in the past.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4918258 - 11/10/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

so then the preservation of the meaning of the word is first and foremost...


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: kotik]
    #4918287 - 11/10/05 04:10 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

so then the preservation of the meaning of the word is first and foremost...




Accuracy is first and foremost.

Words have meaning. "Genocide" has a very specific meaning. It is not a synonym to "slaughter" or "massacre".

This is something the Left has refined into an art form -- the over-inflation of a word to the point of meaningless. Calling anyone with whom you disagree a "fascist" or a "nazi" is another example. Or referring to people who are paid low (in the estimation of the Leftie) wages a "wage-slave".






Phred


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4918295 - 11/10/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Little Eichmman... :smirk:

I think that one is the worst, for some reason.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4918573 - 11/10/05 05:33 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

it seems all the lefties ever cry about is the welfare of people.

it seems all the righties cry about is how the lefties cry about the people.

what am i missing from this equation? the fact that bith right and left share no interests with the common man makes me laugh everytime someone takes sides.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: kotik]
    #4918595 - 11/10/05 05:41 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

What you are missing is that the debate is really about how to best obtain those rights. The lefties argue that it is through government grant. The righties argue that it is through relative independence from government. In actual fact, it is the righties who fight against government hegemony and not the lefties. The lefties wish for more of it.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4918649 - 11/10/05 05:53 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Amen.


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OfflineGuerrilla0726
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4918743 - 11/10/05 06:22 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

you fellows make better arguments than I thought.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Guerrilla0726]
    #4918765 - 11/10/05 06:28 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

That's what we're here for. :wink:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4918776 - 11/10/05 06:35 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

The PA&L forum at Shroomery is a fairly rigorous crucible.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4918781 - 11/10/05 06:38 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

At the very least, it's moving towards being one.


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