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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324598 - 06/22/05 01:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vex said:
I don't think anyone has a problem with killing inurgents. The problem is the thousands upon thousands of totally innocent civilians that are also killed



That sort of thing tends to happen when the enemy doesn't have uniforms, so you don't know who's out to kill you.


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OfflineVex
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Silversoul]
    #4324632 - 06/22/05 01:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds alot like Vietnam. I guess that's that though...there is no possible way to maintain security other than shooting innocent people? Don't insurgents tend to carry AK-47's and sometimes rocket launchers? I'd think it would be pretty easy to tell some guy carrying a rocket launcher from a little kid or an old women.

I have an idea. Why don't the soldiers just stop killing civilians (or people who aren't obviously rebels) at the road blocks and just accept the fact that every now and then a rebel will sneak through and kill a couple soldiers. After all that's war soldiers die.

I'm sure there has to be a better way to do things.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324771 - 06/22/05 02:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

When the insurgents dress in civilian clothes....there is bound to be mass confusion.


Why do you think they dress as civilians....to make us look bad.


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Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4324794 - 06/22/05 02:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

The thing is Pinky that no sources you deem 'credible' will not say this, just like they won't say the Bush camp rigged the 2000 elections....but we all know he did.




And there -- in a nutshell -- is the fundamental difference between how you view the world and how I view the world. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Bush camp "rigged" the 2000 elections. As a matter of fact every panel, commission, investigatory body, etc. who reviewed the proceedings has found he won it fair and square. There are countless threads in the archives of this forum with links to the results of those inquiries. Yet you continue to believe -- not just in the absence of evidence but contrary to the available evidence -- that it was rigged.

Before I address the rest of your comments, let me digress a bit.

One of the charges levelled over and over against myself and the other critical thinkers in this forum is that we are "brainwashed into believing whatever Bush tells us". Yet those making the charge are in fact the ones being brainwashed. All any moonbat with a webpage has to do in order to secure their unblinking credulity is to make some snide comments about Bush as Chimpy McHitler RovePuppet and from then on everything he says is swallowed uncritically. "This guy is smart enough to see what a doofus Bush is, therefore he must be right about entire towns being reduced to rubble".

Whereas I and the other critical thinkers who post here don't accept things coming from either camp without evidence. So when I see -- yet again -- a comment like "Your faith in officaldom is noble, but often blind," I'm too tired to even chuckle at the screaming irony of it any longer. I'm all chuckled out.

Quote:

As I say maybe you are right and I'd love to believe that, but from the primary datum I recieve through my senses, the images coming out of Iraq, the eye witness reports, knowing what kind of arsenal is being used to pound the population centres of the nation.




Since neither of us have been to Iraq, the evidence our senses apprehend is all second-hand. There is no "primary datum" (sic) for either of us to process. The difference between us is that you appear never to dig further than whatever the BBC, al-Reuters and AP choose to present to you, whereas I read at least two dozen sources every day ranging from milblogs to bloggers run by Iraqis themselves to foreign bloggers such as Arthur Chrenkoff to e-mails from returning troops. I even had a brief discussion with three returning troops in the smoking lounge at Atlanta airport two weeks ago.

Quote:

I'm not sure how far destruction as to go for you to deem it 'levelling' of a population centre...




Words have meanings. Critical thinkers recognize this inescapable fact. When you say "When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die," I naturally assume that when you say a whole city was levelled to the ground you meant to say a whole city was levelled to the ground. What part of "levelled to the ground" did I misinterpret?

Quote:

I hope you are right and aside from insugent hideouts only a tiny fraction of civillian homes have been destroyed in this 'war' where civillians are more safe than in any previous war.




I am right. Collateral damage in this war was a tiny fraction of what it has been in any previous modern war. And no one denies that far more Iraqi civilians have been killed by the dead-enders blowing themselves up in coffee shops, mosques, schools, police stations, etc. than have been killed by coalition troops. The moonbats blame those deaths on the coalition by saying that if there was no invasion there would have been no suicide bombers. They never take it a step further and recognize that if Hussein had stepped down on his own and organized free elections there would have been no invasion. Or even if he had remained in power but fulfilled the terms of the conditional cease-fire agreement. Oh no! It's not the fault of the suicide bombers using women as shields to get close enough to a checkpoint to blow up a few soldiers that the troops are now more likely to fire on a fast-moving vehicle ignoring demands to stop: it's the fault of the troops for not realizing that this particular speeding vehicle isn't really a threat, but just an Iraqi late for work.

The civilian deaths would end tomorrow if the dead-enders would realize that they have lost -- Iraqis have a freely-elected government, Hussein and his Ba'athist thugs are history, and the Iraqi people clearly don't want even a single cleric in positions of power (as evidenced by the election results), let alone a full-on theocratic state like Iran. The dead-enders have lost. They cannot win. All they can do is kill more innocents.


Phred


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324799 - 06/22/05 03:01 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vex said:
I guess that's that though...there is no possible way to maintain security other than shooting innocent people?




When a car load of innocent civilians run thru a checkpoint, with a armed soldier in the middle of the road trying to get them to stop, and they don't stop...I have no sympathy for them.....:sorry:

Quote:

Don't insurgents tend to carry AK-47's and sometimes rocket launchers?




They also use car bombs.....hel-lo


Quote:

I have an idea. Why don't the soldiers just stop killing civilians (or people who aren't obviously rebels) at the road blocks and just accept the fact that every now and then a rebel will sneak through and kill a couple soldiers.




I assure you that if you were over there and saw terrorist run thru a checkpoint with a car bomb, killing your friend.....you would shoot any car that doesn't stop.

Quote:

I'm sure there has to be a better way to do things.




Why don't you join up and go show them how to do it right....:rolleyes:


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineVex
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4324890 - 06/22/05 03:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'll never join the military. I'm not going to be some pawn that a corrupt delusional jesus freak can send to war for some random BS reason. I'm sorry but i don't trust my countrymen enough. I dont trust them enough to see when the wool is being pulled over their eyes. They don't ask enough questions, demand enough proof, or care enough about each other for me to fight for them. While they're buying into every single bit of WMD propaganda they are fed i'd be getting shipped off to war to fight some ridiculous cause, like "liberating" the iraqi people (by liberating i of course mean killing them) Until Americans can wake up a little i'm gonna stay right where i am and take my infinitesimal chances with the terrorists. The only people i'll fight for is my family and myself.

But at any rate i shouldn't have to join the war to speculate about the war....which brings me back to my original question: Is randomly shooting civilians at road blocks the only way we can maintain security in Iraq?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324928 - 06/22/05 03:34 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Vex asks:

Quote:

Is randomly shooting civilians at road blocks the only way we can maintain security in Iraq?




-- The only way? Of course not. Nor is it the only way security issues are being addressed.

-- How can someone know that this particular speeding car merely contains an Iraqi late for work who is too stupid to realize that when men with guns wave at him to stop he should stop -- especially since this procedure has been in place for two freaking years now?

-- What is the reason for your use of the loaded word "randomly" in your "have you stopped beating your wife yet" question? Is it your contention that troops just roll dice whenever a car approaches and if they come up craps they shoot at it? Define "randomly" in this context, please.

-- What do you believe troops should do when a car refuses to stop? Grin and wave it through?



Phred


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OfflineVex
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4325063 - 06/22/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I don't disagree that speeding up to a check point is not very bright. After two years people should know better. I'm only addressing the question in such a harsh manner because obviously what they are doing is not working at all. Thousands of innocents are dead so they need to figure something else out. All that killing innocent people is going to do is create more terrorists. That seems like a logical statement to me.

I'm not going to define randomly...it's not the best word for it, but you are taking it too literally anyway. Like i said..whatever they are doing now isn't working and is probably hurting the cause in the long run.

As far as what else could be done i have a couple ideas.

They could install a series of speed bumps far prior to the check points and barricade surrounding terrain so the only choice is slowly over a bunch of speed bumps. No more cars speeding up.

They could also use retractable road spikes like the cops have. so if a car isn't stopping they can stop it. Better yet i've heard of a new police weapon that sends some sort of electronic pulse towards a car that disables the engine entirely. They could use that and then send in bomb sniffing dogs or at least they'd have enough time to get through to the obviously not so bright Iraqis. Then standard police tactics of getting everyone out of the cars with hands up would work. They just need a stop zone for the idiots and terrorists.

These problems could create horrible traffic problems, but that's better that people dying needlessly, and it might deter more people from driving/moving around, which would make it easier to single out insurgents. (if they didn't have crowds to move in)

Also...troops shouldn't just stand out in the open like targets if they don't need to. They should have minimal check points and move through the cities in tight alert units. Of course if everyone was alert and wary all the time the illusion of security might suffer.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4325104 - 06/22/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vex said:
Reading this thread has angered me...I mean, wow!

Did you ever stop to think that calling it genocide was perhaps a figure of speech or something? Sure it isn't really "genocide" as the dictionary defines it, but what else is he supposed to call it? Seriously, what single word can sum it up more appropriately?

100,000 civilians dead some say, and the military is still killing them at a steady relentless pace. What shall we call this...hmmm. It's not genocide i guess. It's more like a slow steady squeeze on Iraqis resulting in their gradual population decline....there is that summary a little more PC for you?

I just don't see how anyone can get caught up on the tiniest little technicality involving semantics and miss the over all point so badly, as you have.




Genocide is a word with strict criteria to meet before an event can be considered this.

Rahpael Lemkin, the creator of the word "genocide", surely was familiar with what IS genocide when he created this criteria, considering he was a survivor of the Holocaust and a marvellous scholar.

It is not just a matter of semantics. It is someone who has no clue about the meaning of a word using it incorrectly.

On top of all the criteria which must be meant, the issue of intent must also be taken into consideration. Though I disagree with being in Iraq still, I refuse to believe that our military forces have an active strategy of killing Iraqi civilians.

Perhaps you should do a little readin on genocide before you start spouting off nonsense.


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OfflineVex
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4325154 - 06/22/05 04:27 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

What do you mean? i agreed with you and said it wasn't genocide. Some people in the world just use terms a little more loosely than others. It seemed to me like he was just trying to imply that they were killing a shitload of innocent people, but instead of saying that you can just say one word: genocide. He shouldn't have called it that though, because it's the wrong word for it.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4325160 - 06/22/05 04:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:

Agreed.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4325227 - 06/22/05 04:45 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Remember, the misuse of a word is a much bigger transgression than the murder of innocents. There are many Iraqis; there is only one word called genocide.

Love your dictionary, not your fellow man.  :heart:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Swami]
    #4325307 - 06/22/05 05:01 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Swami writes:

Quote:

Remember, the misuse of a word is a much bigger transgression than the murder of innocents.




Standard Swami dodging of the issue as well as standard Swami sophistry. You are perfectly aware that words have consequences, and that there is no shortage of Ismalofascist demagogues eager to pounce on absurdly overblown statements like this, as well as outright falsehoods such as the "flushing Korans down the toilet" canard. People die as a result of sloppy rhetoric and sloppy (or non-existent) fact-checking, Swami.



Phred


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4325465 - 06/22/05 05:31 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

wow, no we actually saved lives by correcting the sergeant's words.

:penis:

i find it funny that overall in this thread, the debate was that "genocide" isn't a correct definition of the killing of Iraqis. 


anyway, just so you know, now journalists and reporters that were in Iraq are being excluded by the Iraqi government.
We're that much closer to knowing what's really going on over there.

hehe, i guess the american government learned it's lesson from the Vietnam war...


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4325629 - 06/22/05 06:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Vex said:

"Let me ask you this...Why would someone lie to make himself look like a cold blooded murderer?"

SHOW ME THE $$$


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Edited by Phred (06/22/05 06:58 PM)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4379957 - 07/07/05 03:39 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to you Phreddy, but Elm Street had a few other things to keep me busy.

Well Mr Critical Thinker, it sounds like you have it all worked out. However I still won't go with you, since I am willing to even turn my critical eye on you.

The memory hole is easier and easier to operate in this digital age and artillery is just as damaging.

Bush lost that election, face it. Bush has so much of the legislative and executive behind him he can almost write blank cheques. :wink:

Not only that, levelling a town is a figure of speech, very few places in the history of man have been truly levelled, Hiroshima being one. There are certainly massive numbers of Iraqis without homes, water, sewage, access to fuel, living amongst the rubble their town once was. Perhaps I took the metaphor too far for your taste, but thats you Mr Not-Critical-Love-My-Laissez-Faire.

As for my primary datum, you don't know what I read, or who I speak to, or where I go Phred :wink:


And one thing is for sure, you clearly have no understanding of the mind set of a 'dead-ender'. And for your information I am not condoning insurgent bombing, whilst criticising the US led military effort. Both are wrong, yet they all love to play tit for tat.....and the corporate thievery.

And besides, who has the right to tell Saddam to step down save his own people? I don't see bold Western missions around the globe removing dictators....no I see general support and creation of these monsters. Saddam became a special case, so a story was fabricated that relied on the arms Donald Rumsfield sold him in the first place. It is not common US policy to remove dictators who do not hold elections....this had nothing to do with that.

This whole thing is crazy - even today's events in London have only benefitted the agenda of one G8 leader, he is GWB. This man never seems to feel the gravitas of situations, throwing his hands into their air red faced and grinning during shock and awe...sitting glazed on planet 9 after the WTC was attacked. What is he about? Does he feel emotions for the right reasons? In his morally naive world who wields the power?

Well Africa and Poverty went straight back off the agenda didn't they.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4380453 - 07/07/05 05:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Collateral damage in this war was a tiny fraction of what it has been in any previous modern war




An afterthought.....I like the way you call it 'collateral damage' - a sheer materialist dehumanising way to express things. Distances you and makes it more paletable doesn't it?

What you mean is tens and tens of thousands, possibly even hundreds of thousands of dead innocent civilians - real people women and children, and of course their men. Real lives. And there is no excuse for this, just as their is no excuse for the barbarity of terrorists.

Oh and lets not forget the nigh on a million killed prior to the invasion by sanctions......collateral damage for this whole seedy afair is actually staggeringly high.

This so called war, this conflict is not as pretty as you paint it to be. For example there were far far fewer civilian deaths in the Falklands war, or conflict as it might be called. These are both examples of modern warfare.

The fact is the US is now an occupying force....having won an unjust war and that spells pain for everyone. The greed of a few is the pain of us all.

EDIT: sentence structure on one sentence


Edited by CJay (07/07/05 05:52 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4381816 - 07/08/05 12:17 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

As for my primary datum, you don't know what I read, or who I speak to, or where I go Phred




What you read or who you speak to isn't primary data. Words have meanings. Learn them.

Quote:

And besides, who has the right to tell Saddam to step down save his own people?




Who had the right to declare Hussein the tyrant for life of the Iraqi people? He was a thug who murdered his way to the top of the food chain and maintained his position there through mass murder. You can't seriously be claiming Hussein had the right to do what he did. If you hold that position, there is clearly no point in continuing to hold a rational discussion with you.

Quote:

I don't see bold Western missions around the globe removing dictators....




Which is it? Above you seem to be claiming no one had the right to remove a dictator, now you seem to be bemoaning the fact that no one is removing dictators.

Quote:

Saddam became a special case, so a story was fabricated that relied on the arms Donald Rumsfield sold him in the first place.




See, this is why it's so hard getting through to you -- your grasp of fact is so weak. America didn't arm Hussein.

Quote:

This whole thing is crazy - even today's events in London have only benefitted the agenda of one G8 leader, he is GWB.




How has this "benefitted" Bush? And if it did, so what? Or are you claiming Bush arranged the bombings?

Quote:

What is he about? Does he feel emotions for the right reasons?




Emotions are not tools of cognition.

Quote:

Well Africa and Poverty went straight back off the agenda didn't they.




Apparently not. The G8 conference continues.


Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4381858 - 07/08/05 12:34 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

CJay writes:

Quote:

An afterthought.....I like the way you call it 'collateral damage' - a sheer materialist dehumanising way to express things. Distances you and makes it more paletable doesn't it?




Unlike you, I am precise in my use of words. "Collateral damage" is what occurs when troops return fire on someone firing RPGs at them from a mosque and a woman held hostage by The Faithful is hit by a ricochet. Primary damage is what occurs when real people -- woman and children, and of course their men -- are the primary targets. You know... the ones on buses and underground stations and stuff.

Quote:

What you mean is tens and tens of thousands, possibly even hundreds of thousands of dead innocent civilians - real people women and children, and of course their men.




Nowhere close to a hundred thousand innocent civilians have been killed since March of 2003 in Iraq. Ten thousand? I'll accept that as being possible. The deadenders have no qualms about killing Iraqi civilians.

Quote:

Oh and lets not forget the nigh on a million killed prior to the invasion by sanctions......collateral damage for this whole seedy afair is actually staggeringly high.




Again, I must point out your propensity to be brainwashed by those with an agenda rather than relying on facts. The sanctions (which were of course entirely Hussein's fault anyway) didn't kill "nigh on a million".

Quote:

This so called war, this conflict is not as pretty as you paint it to be. For example there were far far fewer civilian deaths in the Falklands war, or conflict as it might be called.




There were also far fewer civilian deaths in Granada and Panama.

Quote:

The fact is the US is now an occupying force....




Actually, that is yet another non-fact. The troops of the coalition countries are no longer an occupying force and haven't been since sovereignty was turned over to the Iraqis more than a year ago. The coalition troops will leave when the government of Iraq asks them to. Occupiers don't do that -- they leave when they decide to and not a minute before.


Phred


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4382109 - 07/08/05 01:42 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The troops of the coalition countries are no longer an occupying force



:crazy2:


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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