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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313710 - 06/19/05 02:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The problem is, it doesn't take a news organization to decide whether it is a genocide or not.

One just has to judge the intentions of the government to do that.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4313713 - 06/19/05 02:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Do you know what genocide means?




Do you know that civilians have been voluntarily killed by US soldiers? What? You don't think that what happened in Vietnam can't happen in Iraq can you?

The point that YOU are missing is that its not just anybody that talks about a genocide. Its a friggin sergeant, who's been in Irag for two years or something. I think that outweighs anything that you or I have to say...


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313737 - 06/19/05 03:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I think that Sergent was trying to "sensationalize" his story by using the word "genocide".


Are there bad things happening in Iraq....yes

Are civilians being killed.....yes.

Are civilians being singled out for murder.....no

Is there "genocide" going on.....no.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313751 - 06/19/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Do you know what genocide means?




Do you know that civilians have been voluntarily killed by US soldiers? What? You don't think that what happened in Vietnam can't happen in Iraq can you?

The point that YOU are missing is that its not just anybody that talks about a genocide. Its a friggin sergeant, who's been in Irag for two years or something. I think that outweighs anything that you or I have to say...




It doesn't matter who says that genocide is going on. My statments outweigh his b/c mine are based on the Genocide Convention and criteria that must be met for it to be considered genocide. His are based on a misunderstanding of the meaning of genocide, which coincidentally, you share.

Do a little reading on the word genocide, and you'll find yourself mistaken. Look up the author of the word "genocide" (Raphael Lemkin) and his thoughts on the matter.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4313850 - 06/19/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

fine, "genocide" is probably too strong of a word.

but i think that if i saw with my own eyes what Massey said he has done and seen, i couldn't help but to think of that word. even if it doesn't coincide with the true definition of "genocide", it sure brings up an idea of what's going on.


and i don't think its use is to "sensationalize" his story, because that's the word he used when he spoke to one of his commanders about the atrocities happening.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4313919 - 06/19/05 04:14 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So his reason for publishing a book arent to make money.....but to spread the "truth" about whats going on in Iraq :rolleyes:


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4313964 - 06/19/05 04:23 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

is that so unconceivable?


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4314699 - 06/19/05 08:21 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

What, publishing a book, or lying to get it published?

Anyone can see that the U.S. is clearly not committing genocide in Iraq. This soldier is just trying to cash in on his experience in Iraq, by fluffing up his story, so someone will publish it.

Do you honestly believe that the U.S. is committing genocide in Iraq?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4314714 - 06/19/05 08:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Oy vey, you had to ask?


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: niteowl]
    #4316102 - 06/20/05 04:52 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

no, its not a genocide, its a massive murder...funny how these two notions soud so similar no?

I don't think this guy is going to lie to get his book published. how long does it usually take for such information to get out to the public? 10, 20 years? and here we are today with internet, the fastest and most performant information and communication tool ever, and we don't want to find out NOW what we usually get to find out in a long time. sad if you ask me.

go find out for yourself! there's plenty of soldiers coming back with such witnesses, but since big medias don't want to hear them, they use the internet to share what they know. i could post many other articles from the web like this one, but people would just get tired to hear the same shit after awhile.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4316543 - 06/20/05 12:01 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Whatever you want to call it: a million+ children + civillian adults killed by US driven UN sanctions, followed by 100,000+ civilians killed by the US military and the ongoing daily killing of many civillians; plus a society reduced to lawlessness and wanton killing all around by the USA's actions, plus the carving up of Iraq's oilfields (resources) for foreign investors and rebuilding contracts pretty much all for Halliburton (non-Iraq)

....plus a puppet government, plus leveling entire cities like Falluja, plus targeting mosques and the people's cultural identity with missiles and this forced 'freedom'....

Sounds like attempted destruction of local culture if only for the black gold's purpose. But hey when you've got a guy who speaks to God leading a war against people who speak to Allah.....maybe it really is some moral crusade for GWB in which case it is attempted destruction of a religious and cultural group with the offensive at the place which it is most vital to secure.

Anyway whats in the use of words? The US has been waging a so called 'War on Terror' for years now (of which the entire Iraq debacle is a chapter). 'War on Terror' is an oxymoron and the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed since its inception cannot be described as 'Terror', lets remember we are consistently told by Rummy and co. that the insurgency is a tiny proportion of the population funded usually by foreign interests....well if there are so few of them, how come so many are being killed? And how come none of those killed are insurgents? Well this is the perfect way to up the numbers of insurgents, keep the war going, heighten the cultural divide and head for the big Allah vs God Showdown. Rummy and co. are desperately trying to galvanise the US people and insert a moral backbone, for that they need an opposite to draw lines against - boy are they glad they've found a situation to manipulate that gives them this.

Soon all will be pure.

ps - oh yeh they did maybe kill a couple of insurgents..but just a couple...or were they freedom fighters (real freedom fighters fighting for their freedom to hold their own cultural identity, fighting against foreign invaders and occupiers)..about every 6 months we hear a bogus rumour...so and so, leader of the insurgents has been injured (halleluja!).......never get em do they tho? Never got bin Laden tho......just hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians. That brings me to another oxymoron 'military intelligence'....or to worse thoughts, like bin Laden and the insurgency are not the targets. War itself is the target, but a managable war on foreign soil that means wartime practice can be enforced and the US people bound to their patriotism, religion and culture. Or at least Rummy and co's vision of it.


Edited by CJay (06/20/05 12:13 PM)


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4316587 - 06/20/05 12:17 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

no, its not genocide,

We're committing terroristocide.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316595 - 06/20/05 12:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey
By Scott McLeod


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Former Marine Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey was honorably discharged from the Corps in December 2003 after 12 years of active duty. Diagnosed with depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, he came home to live in Waynesville. His military tours included training infantry soldiers at boot camp in Parris Island, S.C., acting as a Marine recruiter in Waynesville and Sylva, and participating in the invasion of Baghdad during April and May of 2003.

Massey?s discharge proceedings began when he questioned the killing of civilians in Iraq. During the U.S.-led invasion in the spring of 2003 Massey suddenly came to doubt his mission. He says the killing of innocent civilians in which he took part changed him. He also believes America?s ability to complete its mission in Iraq has been compromised from the beginning ? since those first days when troops rolled into Baghdad more than a year ago? because of faulty intelligence that led to civilian deaths, said Massey.

Now he?s telling his story to reporters around the world. He estimates he?s given 35 interviews over the last few months, both in the local newspapers, papers like the Sacramento Bee in California, and to international media outlets such as the BBC. He?s currently working on a book with a French journalist from New York. We interviewed him in Waynesville at the public library.



Q: Tell me about the story of the civilian deaths that is recounted in the Sacramento Bee article.

A: I had actually forgotten about this. I had it repressed in my mind. I am writing a book. A French journalist is helping me with the structure of it. She drove down here after the story in The Mountaineer. She investigated and found out it was true. ...

I am waiting to get into VA so I can start my therapy, but process takes a long time with the VA and everything. That was an incident I remembered, the shooting of the civilians. It?s been a healing process for me, trying to heal myself talking about it and putting it in a memoir text.

The straw that broke the camel?s back was an incident right outside of Baghdad. We had just taken a security position, we had actually just taken out some bad guys, so the platoon was in high morale because we had shot some bad guys. In doing that, we saved a battalion from an RPG (rocket-propelled grenade) attack. The men were pretty stoked and were trying to forget about yesterday?s scenario with the civilian casualties and everything.

... This red Kia came into our area, and we fired a warning shot. They didn?t stop. I won?t say the Marine Corps did not take adequate steps. We did all within our power. I don?t fault the Marine Corps. It?s the intelligence reports that led to the kind of mass hysteria that led to the genocidal type of atmosphere that was prevalent. And that?s what it felt like, like we were just mass exterminating Iraqis.

The Kia came into our area, and they went past our signs in Arabic saying ?stop, halt.? We fired warning shots, they didn?t stop. We opened up on them with 50-caliber and M-16s and 240s.

There were four people in the car, and the vehicle came to a stop about 50 meters in front of my Humvee. Somehow the driver managed to escape the bullets, to this day I don?t know how, whether Allah, or Buddah or God was looking after him. We went up and started pulling bodies out, they were shot up pretty bad, still alive but expiring pretty fast.

The one gentleman who survived came out, wailing and flailing his arms, sitting on the curb covering his face and crying. He got up, by that time the corpsmen was there doing CPR, and he looked up at me. ?Why did you kill my brother? He did not do anything to you.?

It just hit me like a ton of bricks. What in the hell are we doing, what are we doing, what are we accomplishing? Not more than five minutes ago we were taking out bad guys, and we?re now killing civilians.



Q: So from the time the U.S. military started going into Baghdad, you immediately saw some actions that turned a lot of Iraqi people against us?

A: Yes, I hate to say it, but it was like turning a bunch of pit bulls loose on a cage full of rabbits. You got Marines hyped up by 9-11 propaganda, by Saddam saying he was going to use chemical weapons against us, that the streets were gonna run red. You know, there?s no match for a squad of Marines. A squad of Marines are devastating with the amount of firepower and destructions that?s available.

You know, Marines are dehumanized from boot camp, desensitized to the killing. The Marine Corps says their job is to instill intangible traits into their recruits, such as self-discipline, self-confidence, honor, courage and commitment. What they fail to realize is that once you train a person with a warrior mentality, once you desensitize them to death, violence and destruction, and then place them in an environment such as Iraq, it also becomes a Jekyl and Hyde mentality. One minute you?re passing out candy to a little kid, 10 minutes later you?re opening fire on a vehicle with women and children. And the Iraqis saw that, they saw the evil side to Americans. And we set ourselves up for failure from the beginning.


Q: Were there any gratifying aspects to what you did while over there?

A: Oh yeah, there were. We killed lots of bad guys.

Once, and I still have the note, there was this little girl in Baghdad, near the university. We pulled into what looked like a women?s homeless shelter. We parked our Humvee and got out, and these people were so loving. They were giving us flowers. This little girl kept staring at me, and she was waving and smiling. She picked up a piece of paper and she came running downstairs and wrote, ?Hi, I love you, God bless America.? It was so powerful.

And then, after reading something like that, we were probably killing some of her innocent relatives. Maybe that?s why she?s in a shelter.



Q: With Memorial Day coming up, how do you feel about the holiday, our country, the soldiers still there and this war?

A: I fear for their lives and for my life. America is in a dark time. The country is divided. I do keep in contact with one Marine who is in Iraq right now, but I don?t tell him anything about what is going on here. I don?t tell him about the mindset. His job while he?s over there is to support the president of the United States. The men and women who are over there need all the mental and physical courage they can muster, to do the job they have to do.

I used to tell my Marines our job is not to be over here playing politician, our job is to secure Iraq for a free market democracy, and that?s what we?ll do. However, I felt what I saw, I didn?t see any way for America to accomplish that. When I became vocal about that, the Marine Corps did not like what I had to say.


Q: How?d you get out of the Marines after these incidents?

A: I went to regimental sergeant major. He?s in charge of about 3,500 marines, and he called me into his office. He said, ?I understand the situation and your feelings about Iraq, but we?re going to go ahead and move you into a different job. We?re going to give you a cushy job. You?ve only got seven more years to retire and you?ve got a lot built up in your career.?

... I told him, ?Thank you sergeant major, I don?t want your money anymore. I don?t want your benefits. You killed some civilians, and you?re gonna have to live with it partner, and I?m gonna tell the truth.? He didn?t like that. He said, ?Well, there might be some judicial proceedings that follow.? I said I accept that, and he didn?t need me for anything else I?d like to be dismissed.

I went straight down to the PX and bought copy a of the Marine Corps Times, and in the back they have advertisements for military lawyers. I put my finger on the name of Mr. Gary Myers in Washington, D.C. ... I gave him the number to the sergeant major and to the psychiatrist I was seeing. He called me and said ?I think they see crystal clear what you are trying to achieve, and I don?t think there will be any problem.? If I didn?t hire a lawyer, I wouldn?t be sitting here talking to you. I?d be in a brig.



Q: As time has gone on, more questions are being raised about whether the Iraqis will ever support what Americans are trying to do. How difficult is that going to be?

A: I mean, well, I?m not a politician, I?m just a good-old boy. But you?re asking an Iraqi that probably just lost an innocent loved one to the American military, and now you?re asking them to submit to this democracy that is being imposed on them, and a lot of them are resentful. They are bitter about their loved ones being killed. They had makeshift morgues over there, and bodies were piled upon bodies on the truck beds, just packed, and the civilians in the area said it was from the airstrikes. It was so bad that the body tissue was just oozing out of the crevices of the truck.

I understand there are loopholes in the Geneva Conventions and loopholes in the rules of engagement. However, I?m not going to kill innocent civilians for no government. If you want to go head to head in battle with men in uniform, I?m all for it. I would still be in the Marines. However, I was taught and raised by parents and relatives that there are certain moral things you don?t do, and killing innocent civilians is one of them.



Q: Will we be able to succeed in Iraq?

A: I?m not going to sit here and play armchair quarterback. I don?t have all the answers. I spent 12 years in an organization and I feel I did my best. I have different ways of looking at things because of my worldly travels. I?m not going to play armchair quarterback to the government. I?m just saying how I feel. People can take it with grain of salt, or hear it, or apply it to themselves and make them a better person. There was no need for what we did over there, there was no need.

As I?ve been telling this story, I?ve gotten lots of positive response. I?ve also gotten hate mail, people telling me ?You?re destroying America, violating the code of silence.? People like that need to turn off the idiot box.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316671 - 06/20/05 12:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

From the man himself:
Q: Tell me about the story of the civilian deaths that is recounted in the Sacramento Bee article.

A: I had actually forgotten about this. I had it repressed in my mind. I am writing a book. A French journalist is helping me with the structure of it. She drove down here after the story in The Mountaineer. She investigated and found out it was true. ...

this dude is a joke.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316692 - 06/20/05 12:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

this dude is a joke

:thumbup:


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316696 - 06/20/05 12:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
no, its not genocide,

We're committing terroristocide.




Yet the number and frequency of terrorist attacks on this planet has steadily increased since this 'terroristocide' began.....go figure.

Sounds like you are committing 'absolute failure' if terroristocide is the object.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4317005 - 06/20/05 02:39 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

if this dude is a joke, you guys will be laughing your ass off in a few years when the "law of silence" will be broken by hundreds of other soldiers.

this is just the beggining. you guys can close your minds off to this for now, but soon you will be forced to come face to face with the fact that the american military has become the biggest terrorist in the world.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317073 - 06/20/05 02:57 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Regardless, no genocide is occurring


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317128 - 06/20/05 03:14 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

genocide, slaughter...same thing if you ask me.

but if it makes you happy, semantically you are correct.  :handth: :penis:


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317268 - 06/20/05 04:11 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, no one here is saying that bad things aren't happening in Iraq.

Just that using the term "genocide" is wrong. It gives the wrong impression of what is really going on over there.

Are there civilians being killed, of course, it's a war, civilians have been killed in every war in history. This is no different.

I have yet to hear of a situation where civilians were targeted for murder.

From what I have heard so far from this guy, the civilians that were killed didn't follow the rules of the check point.
Had they stopped like the sign said they would NOT have been shot at.
The military did nothing wrong.

Are the military supposed to just let cars run thru the checkpoints?


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