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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317788 - 06/20/05 06:41 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Nope, but only b/c they were reasonable enough to relize that we were helping them.

I dare say that nowhere near a majority of the Iraqi population care enough about us being there to take actions against us.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317845 - 06/20/05 06:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Go ahead, actually check CJay's link. It doesn't just say what he says it does. Random quotes, "the Lancet admits the research is based on a small sample-1ooo homes" & "independant estimate of civilian deaths was around 15,000" & "a respected database run by a group of academics and peace activists has put the number of reported civilian deaths at 14,000 to 16,000". Beware CJays bullshit. This whole bit of jive was fisked relentlessly earlier but CJay just keeps putting out the same shit once he thinks people have forgotten.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4317853 - 06/20/05 06:55 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well I hope it works out, but I have my doubts because I think at this rate unhappiness and unrest will only grow.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4317868 - 06/20/05 06:58 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

did you know that general Tommy Franks promised at the outset of the war that the U.S. government would not conduct a body count of the Iraqi civilians killed by coalition forces?

i think that makes an accurate death count very improbable. and i think that's how the government wants it.

but you're right when you're thinking in your head that estimates should be treated with caution.

personally, knowing the fact that these estimates are a year old, i'm tempted to think that the correct death toll is over 100,000.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4317876 - 06/20/05 06:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I said the estimates are between 14,000 - 100,000+

When I look at one episode alone, such as Falluja, I see terrible devestation, when I see that many places are razed to the ground like this I know the death toll will be high, and I am inclined to go with the higher end of the estimate myself.

I certainly believe it to be much higher than the low end estimates, which include that of the US government, if not as high as the highest.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317877 - 06/20/05 07:00 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

With more than half due to the insurgents directly.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4317902 - 06/20/05 07:06 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My mistake, there is no official US govt estimate


Quote:

There is no official estimate of the number of Iraqi civilians who have died since the outbreak of the war in Iraq.

However, the Pentagon spokesman said "there is no accurate way to validate the estimates of civilian casualties by this or any other organisation".




....must be a lot though judging by that.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4317924 - 06/20/05 07:13 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die.




Is it your contention that the above events happened somewhere in Iraq after March 19, 2003?

If so, I would like to see some links to credible sources, please, since I've been following all the news out of Iraq incredibly closely since that date and haven't seen anything even close to what you describe reported in any of the roughly two dozen sources I check daily.

Thank you.


Phred


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4318094 - 06/20/05 07:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if you've seen Iraq lately but its populated areas are in large part rubble, pre March 19 2003 they were mostly buildings. In between a bunch of people called the US military went in there with the kind of weaponry I mentioned and funnily enough used that equipment to enact that destruction. Of course the insurgency that has risen up adds to the overall devestation, more and more now since the American military's major campaign was in the invasion episode apart from that time they all but destroyed falluja to get to those apparent insugents there.

The general method of attack is airstrikes followed by ground troops and artillery - both use clusterbombs and machine guns and missiles.

A couple of links but I am sure you will denounce them - check out any tv screen for visuals on Iraq and you might work out why Halliburton have such a big rebuilding contract.

On 14th October 2004 sensing that the city of 300,000 was to be singled out for destruction as it had become a symbol of Resistance against the Occupation ; the people of Fallujah through several organizations of Teachers, Tribal Leaders, the Shura Council , the Bar Association, through the President of the Study Centre of Human Rights and Democracy forwarded an urgent appeal to the Secretary General of the United Nations in these words:

" Your Excellency, It is obvious that the American forces are committing crimes of genocide every day in Iraq .Now while we are writing to Your Excellency , the American warplanes are dropping their most powerful bombs on the civilians in the city , killing and injuring hundreds of innocent people . At the same time their tanks are attacking the city with their heavy artillery?"

"On the night of 13th October alone American bombardment demolished 50 houses on top of their residents. Is this a genocidal crime or a lesson about democracy? It is obvious that the Americans are committing acts of terror against the people of Fallujah for one reason only : their refusal to accept the Occupation."

"Your Excellency and the whole world knows that the Americans and their allies devastated our country under the pretext of the threat of the Weapons of Mass Destruction .Now after the destruction and the killing of thousands of civilians , they have admitted that there were no weapons found .But they say nothing about all the crimes they have committed .Unfortunately everyone is now silent and will not dignify the murdered Iraqi civilians with words of condemnation .Are the Americans going to pay compensation as Iraq has been forced to do after the Gulf War??."

" We know we are living in a world of double standards .In Fallujah , they have created a new vague target: AL ZARQAWI. This is a new pretext to justify their crimes, killing and daily bombardment of civilians. Almost a year has passed since they created this new pretext and whenever they destroy houses ?.they said ?We have launched a successful operation against AL Zarqawi. hey will never say that they have killed him because there is no such person. And that means the daily killings of civilians and the daily genocide will continue."

"At the same time the representatives of Fallujah , our tribal leader has denounced on many occasions the kidnapping and killing of civilians , and we have no links to any group committing such inhuman behaviour."

" Excellency , we appeal to you and to all the world leaders to exert the greatest pressure on the American administration to stop the crimes in Fallujah and withdraw their army?.the city was quiet and peaceful when its people ran it ?.We simply did not welcome the Occupation. This is our right according to the UN Charter , International Law and the laws of humanity. If the Americans believe in the opposite they should first withdraw from the UN and all its agencies before acting in a way contrary to the Charter they have signed"

" It is very urgent that your Excellency along with the world leaders, intervenes in a speedy manner to prevent a new massacre?."

This was the voice of the people of Fallujah appealing to the UN and to world leaders and what was the response? After the administration of the United States had taken care of the African-American voters and others through the Diebold electronic voting machines on the 8th November commenced the destruction of Fallujah which to the United States was a symbol of Iraqi resistance throughout the world. There is hardly a home intact in the city of Fallujah. The first attack by US forces with the Black Watch Regiments poised on the highways , was on the Fallujah hospitals and medical personnel who report the casualty figures and treat the wounded the messengers of the devastation and loss of lives .Dr Khamis al-Muhammadi of the Fallujan General Hospital has informed the media that she was seized and taken away by Occupation forces even as she was about to cut an unbilical cord during child birth; several doctors have been reported to have been killed and all hospitals and clinics destroyed. AL ZARQAWI like BIN LADEN was never captured despite the destruction of the entire city. Yet who can destroy the spirit of Fallujah which has survived many attempts of a whole century to crush it.

Even as use of Depleted Uranium , of napalm, of banned chemicals spread throughout the world , Mr . Kofi Anan reacted to the appeal of Fallujah and pronounced what had already been known to millions that :

"The Occupation of Iraq is illegal?" with the Japan Times subsequently reporting that the Secretary General of the United Nations would pay the price for this statement with calls for his resignation despite past services rendered and though the real price for the fraudulently conceived ?FOOD FOR OIL? program vests with the Security Council and the entire policy and its implementation was illegal as it sought to impose control over the resources of anther sovereign country to regulate production and distribution of Oil.

With the war declared categorically illegal even by the Secretary General of the United Nations , on what basis does the US administration plan to increase troop levels .Why has it concealed from the world that it has already created four military bases in Iraq with the objective of permanent occupation . And what is the nature of the liberation of Iraq. Dahr Jamail reports that Baghdad after 19 months remains in shambles bombed out buildings sit as insulting reminders of unbroken promises of reconstruction 70 % of Iraqis at the very minimum are unemployed and there is a five mile petrol lines in an oil rich country.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BHA412A.html

(below from USA today article)

The Pentagon presented a misleading picture during the war of the extent to which cluster weapons were being used and of the civilian casualties they were causing. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters on April 25, six days before President Bush declared major combat operations over, that the United States had used 1,500 cluster weapons and caused one civilian casualty. It turns out he was referring only to cluster weapons dropped from the air, not those fired by U.S. ground forces.

In fact, the United States used 10,782 cluster weapons, according to the declassified executive summary of a report compiled by U.S. Central Command, which oversaw military operations in Iraq. Centcom sent the figures to the Joint Chiefs in response to queries from USA TODAY and others, but details of the report remain secret.

U.S. forces fired hundreds of cluster weapons into urban areas. These strikes, from late March to early April, killed dozens and possibly hundreds of Iraqi civilians. Forty civilians were killed in one neighborhood in Hillah, 60 miles south of Baghdad, say residents and Saad Khazal al-Faluji, a surgeon at Hillah General Hospital who tracked casualties.

http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/iraqc.htm#clusterbombs


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4318125 - 06/20/05 07:58 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When whole towns, villages and cities are levelled to the ground with clusterbombs, helicopter machine guns, tomahawks followed by marauding marines, tanks and ground artillery.....a lot of civillian people die.




Please provide links to credible sources describing a whole town or a whole village or a whole city which was levelled to the ground in Iraq post March 19, 2003.

Thank you.



Phred


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Phred]
    #4323846 - 06/22/05 08:28 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The thing is Pinky that no sources you deem 'credible' will not say this, just like they won't say the Bush camp rigged the 2000 elections....but we all know he did. Your faith in officaldom is noble, but often blind.

As I say maybe you are right and I'd love to believe that, but from the primary datum I recieve through my senses, the images coming out of Iraq, the eye witness reports, knowing what kind of arsenal is being used to pound the population centres of the nation. Knowing that there is a rebuilding fund of $18 billion (that seems to denote a lot of urban areas need rebuilding - yet so little of it has been accessed, about $1bn so far, and so few projects started except for arming the Iraqi army and securing the oilfields for the big winners the favoured corporations)

Knowing the leaders of this onslaught, the US government, project false information (as they did to ensure the onslaught could go ahead) - I'm afraid I am past believing anything they say. A series of lies, rigged elections, phoney trumped up terrorist connections and a mission accomplished that will never be, make me realise these people are pathological liars. Occasionally something gets exposed as fraud such as the 45 min claim, but who pays for the exposure? The people who reveal the truth, not the fraudsters. Heads of news corporations and journalists loose their careers, while the falsehood ploughs on unabated and undented. 'Credible' sources cannot go beyond the realm of the governmentally deemed 'credible' without fear of shutdown -personal or companywide, and so they will not go there.

Obviously my links before weren't enough for you, but if you go to Google you will find a lot of sources you do not deem to be 'credible' relaying this information as far as possible. Of course a lot of these ares no one can get near, no reporters no one realy except the locals and the extremely intrepid, being a warzone and territory under US control kind of stops any legal 'credible' information getting out from these parts. Of course you would not listen to anything that does come out, since you will deem it to be uncredible. I'm not sure how far destruction as to go for you to deem it 'levelling' of a population centre, obviously pretty far - and in many places it has certainly gone very far.

So Pinky - I hope you are right and aside from insugent hideouts only a tiny fraction of civillian homes have been destroyed in this 'war' where civillians are more safe than in any previous war. I really hope the numbers of civillian deaths are down near the lowest estimates...or less. However I deem this 'credible' information to be 'uncredible'. Perhaps you are right, but it seems unlikely. In most modern wars there is never any wholesale civillian destruction, there are never so called 'war-crimes'.....nothing credible. Not until a long time after, when there is no where left to 'officially' hide from what really happened and it begins to come out wholesale. (Oh of course during a war the enemy are ALWAYS massacring, war-crime committing evil doers)

I am willing to conceed I cannot supply you with what you want, in which case you are undoubtably right.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: CJay]
    #4324185 - 06/22/05 12:05 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Though I believe it is nonsense that he won, I refuse to accept that the elections were fixed. That is absurd.


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OfflineVex
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Redstorm]
    #4324434 - 06/22/05 01:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Reading this thread has angered me...I mean, wow!

Did you ever stop to think that calling it genocide was perhaps a figure of speech or something? Sure it isn't really "genocide" as the dictionary defines it, but what else is he supposed to call it? Seriously, what single word can sum it up more appropriately?

100,000 civilians dead some say, and the military is still killing them at a steady relentless pace. What shall we call this...hmmm. It's not genocide i guess. It's more like a slow steady squeeze on Iraqis resulting in their gradual population decline....there is that summary a little more PC for you?

I just don't see how anyone can get caught up on the tiniest little technicality involving semantics and miss the over all point so badly, as you have.

A 12 year army veteran (sergeant) comes forth and tells us about the horrible injustices taking place. About the murders taking place. About the things that happen in war where everyone always says "we'll never let that happen again" right after they watch the latest tragic war film....and you ignore all of that and create 20 posts about the meaning of the word genocide as if you getting everyone to admit it's not technically genocide will some how completely discredit this man and erase all the things he has said :lol:


Anyways, It seems appropriate to ask this question again.  :rolleyes: Where is this on the nightly news? This guy seems like someone the liberal media would love, so why isn't he being interviewed by Ted Koppel. Why is the only outlet for his story the "world socialist web" when there are so many loony leftist media networks that could report it? Is it because he has no credibility, if so why doesn't he have any? He was in the marines for 12 years, Iraq for 2, was promoted to the rank of sergeant, and was honorably discharged. So someone please explain to me when his credibility evaporated. It must have been when he decided to put his story into a book right? Well why not, i'd want to do the same if the MSM was ignoring my story. I'm just a bit confused here..if this guy was saying everything was fine and dandy then he'd probably be just as credible as the next guy, right? Does anyone here really believe things in Iraq are "fine and dandy"? Stories like this do not surprise me at all, because i've heard them from a friend of mine that is in Iraq.

I know I know..."that's war" civilians die...it just irritates me that the people who always say that are usually sitting behind a computer somewhere and then when someone who has actually been in the war talks about it in depth and talks about how it makes them feel, then these same people, sitting behind their computers, laugh and say..no that's not how it is at all, this guy is full of shit!


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Vex]
    #4324490 - 06/22/05 01:18 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Former Sergeant (claims to have shot children) Criticizes Iraq War (at Cornell, Ithaca event)
Copyright ? 2005 The Cornell Daily Sun. All rights reserved. ^ | 3/14/05 | by Nessia Sloane


Posted on 03/14/2005 5:50:57 AM PST by Behind Liberal Lines


ITHACA NY--"I lied, I cheated, and I deceived," Iraq War Veteran and former staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey said Friday in Anabel Taylor Hall.

His lecture was part of his mission to reveal his own experiences as a recruitment counselor and a sergeant on the front lines of Iraq. Massey is currently touring upstate New York as a pacifist, commenting on American manipulation and treachery in the Marine Corps and in the War in Iraq.

Massey was brought to Cornell by an Ithaca organization called Conscious Alternative to Militarism (CAM), which is currently working on a movement of counter-recruitment. Its goal is "to make people informed consumers," said Grace Ritter, a member of CAM and organizer of this event.

Massey's discussion unveiled his participation in the Marine Corps' manipulation as a recruitment counselor.

"I was able to plant seeds in their minds," Massey said.

The recruitment process, Massey said, works under the assumption that it can convince young recruits that it is necessary and beneficial to join the Marines.

Assigned a list of hundreds of young men, each recruitment counselor gathers detailed information on the young men's personal lives, from their SAT scores to their eyesight. According to Massey, once a counselor convinces a person to sign up, he encourages the recruit to lie in order to pass the drug, medical and police tests.

"It's just a manipulation of the English language," Massey said.

Massey himself recruited 75 young men, one of whom even had a serious neurological disorder. Massey explained that he understood what he was doing was wrong but continued to recruit out of fear of losing his job in the Marine Corps.

As a reward for his accomplishments as a recruitment counselor, Massey was sent to the front lines of Iraq where according to Massey "the Rules of the Geneva Convention, were out the windows." He admitted to killing innocent civilians and cited a specific example in which he stormed a car of four young Iraqi men, killing three of them.

"We created the enemy," Massey said.

Massey added that a young man whose brother was just murdered will inevitably fight back. Nathan Newman, an Ithaca resident in the audience, expressed his desire for his brother, a lieutenant in the Marines, to speak out like Jimmy Massey.

"I don't know what could be more important than a person speaking out to a community about finding or re-finding their humanity," said Luke Cannon, another Ithaca resident.

Upon his discharge on Dec. 31 2003, Massey has been speaking out under the assumption that the public has the right to know the truth about military conscription and the War in Iraq.

"I will take back everything I said if [The Marine Corps] could answer one question. How is a six-year-old child with a bullet in his head a terrorist, because that is the youngest I killed," Massey said.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4324501 - 06/22/05 01:20 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"I will take back everything I said if [The Marine Corps] could answer one question. How is a six-year-old child with a bullet in his head a terrorist, because that is the youngest I killed," Massey said.

shouldn't this guy be in jail???? or the officer that gave him the order???


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4324521 - 06/22/05 01:26 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

--"I lied, I cheated, and I deceived,"

just like he is doing now!

this guy is a JACK ASS


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4324553 - 06/22/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, I trust this source that someone actually said this. My question is, so what? With as many people going to Iraq as there are, there's bound to be a wide diversity of opinions. Now, to say that we shouldn't be in Iraq is one thing, and I'd tend to agree with such a statement. But to say that it's genocide is utter stupidity. What race or ethnicity are we systematically killing off? We're killing insurgents, but are they a different ethnicity than the members of the Iraqi government? Are we killing them for the color of our skin? No. We're killing them because they're trying to kill us.


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OfflineVex
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4324556 - 06/22/05 01:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Lying, cheating, and decieving is in the marine recruitment job description, that's what they do.

Let me ask you this...Why would someone lie to make himself look like a cold blooded murderer? He might not be the best guy on the planet, but would it really shock you if this stuff was going on? It's not like he layed out some massive conspiracy or anything. He just basically said "we're killing alot of civilians, and i can't do it anymore" that's his whole story basically. It's not all that far-fetched.


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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: exclusive58]
    #4324563 - 06/22/05 01:34 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
genocide, slaughter...same thing if you ask me.



Most ignorant statement of the day.


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OfflineVex
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Re: Iraq vet: "We're comitting genocide in Iraq" [Re: Silversoul]
    #4324581 - 06/22/05 01:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think anyone has a problem with killing inurgents. The problem is the thousands upon thousands of totally innocent civilians that are also killed


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