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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
UN approval for multinational force in Iraq?
    #1856576 - 08/27/03 11:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95878,00.html

Quote:

WASHINGTON ? The Bush administration is exploring the possibility of establishing a U.N.-endorsed multinational force in Iraq that would be led by an American commander, a top State Department official says.

Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage (search) acknowledged that the idea is one of many being weighed by the administration as it attempts to deal with continuing violence in that country almost four months after President Bush declared an end to major combat operations.

Armitage outlined his thoughts in an interview with regional U.S. newspapers on Tuesday, a text of which was made available by the State Department.

Secretary of State Colin Powell (search) traveled to New York last Thursday to issue an appeal for a new U.N. Security Council resolution that would reinforce U.N. support for the deployment of additional foreign forces in Iraq.

But initial soundings by administration officials suggested minimal support for that approach, taking into account continuing resentment among many Security Council members about the U.S. decision in March to go to war in Iraq without U.N. endorsement.

Since then, the administration has been trying out other ideas that would address U.S. concerns about continuing instability in Iraq without yielding to American insistence on retaining command over international forces in Iraq.

On Monday, U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte (search) highlighted the distance to be traveled before a consensus could be reached when he said, "We are nowhere near a resolution on Iraq."

French officials have said a genuinely international approach to Iraq with a sharing of authority is the best way to bring stability to Iraq and enable the country to move forward.

The proposal outlined by Armitage would not entail the deployment of U.N. forces to Iraq but would simply provide the U.N. endorsement for the deployment of a multinational force.

The most recent example of this type of action occurred this past spring with the U.N. approval of a French-led multinational force to eastern Congo in a bid to bring an end to widespread violence in that region.




I would have no problem with something like this happening, as long as we can make sure that what we want to happen gets done in Iraq. Turning total control over to the UN would be a mistake. A deal like the French have for the Congo would be ideal.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 26 days
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: shakta]
    #1856639 - 08/27/03 11:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I would have no problem with something like this happening, as long as we can make sure that what we want to happen gets done in Iraq. Turning total control over to the UN would be a mistake.


I'm a little behind the power curve here. What do we want to happen in Iraq which makes turning over control to the UN a mistake???


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1856677 - 08/27/03 11:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think that was our mistake all along. When we use multilateralism, we tend to piss fewer people off, thus making fewer people want to kill us.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1856680 - 08/27/03 11:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

We want to make sure a democracy is established, and Saddam or someone like him does not return to power. I have already heard the argument that the Iraqis may elect a Islamic fundamentalist, and I just don't think that would happen. If it does we can cross that bridge when we get to it. For now, the Iraqis need to hammer out their constitution, and get some elections going. This isn't going to happen until the country is more secure though. The decision to suspend local elections in Iraq irritates me, but I can understand the coalition's reasoning. I think they are erring on the side of caution right now.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1856691 - 08/27/03 11:22 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I think that was our mistake all along. When we use multilateralism, we tend to piss fewer people off, thus making fewer people want to kill us.




I agree that that is the best way to go if possible, and that is why Bush tried it. The administration and quite a few other countries did not feel we could wait for the UN to do something, especially since it seemed like it never would. I don't want to cloud the current situation with the past though if we can help it. I think the UN should approve a multinational force for Iraq. India and others are just waiting to help.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 26 days
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: shakta]
    #1856853 - 08/27/03 11:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
We want to make sure a democracy is established, and Saddam or someone like him does not return to power.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the UN goal too! I think most Iraqis want security as well. But they are now very suspicious of the US for NOT turning control over to the UN.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1856878 - 08/27/03 11:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

They can be as suspicious as they want. The war is not even over. Why in the hell would we turn control over to the UN. The suggestion is assinine. You have to win a war before turning control over to anyone. I believe the only people we will turn control over to will be the Iraqis when they are ready.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 26 days
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: shakta]
    #1856951 - 08/28/03 12:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Why in the hell would we turn control over to the UN.


Because it's costing us a billion dollars a week, because it's making the Iraqis hate us, because it's making the world hate us, because the UN would look out for Iraqi interests while the US might look out for our own, because... wait a minute, why in the hell wouldn't we???


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,772
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Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: shakta]
    #1857017 - 08/28/03 12:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The UN should tell us to go fuck ourselves. We disobeyed them by going to war and now that we fucked up we want the people we disobeyed to help us out before the next election so that the puritans can keep their stranglehold on our souls.








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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #1857054 - 08/28/03 12:39 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The UN is toothless. Like it or not they won't do shit.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #1857101 - 08/28/03 12:49 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Although I share your dislike for the current administration's foreign policy, the U.S. should NEVER obey the U.N., it should do what is right. If this coincides with the U.N.'s wishes, so be it but the U.S. should always remain sovereign. The people of our country should not be subjected to yet another layer of beaurocracy meddling in their affairs.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: shakta]
    #1857286 - 08/28/03 01:41 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

With american bodies stacking up every day and election time just round the corner Bush is looking for any way out he can.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 26 days
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1857411 - 08/28/03 02:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Autonomous said:
Although I share your dislike for the current administration's foreign policy, the U.S. should NEVER obey the U.N., it should do what is right. If this coincides with the U.N.'s wishes, so be it but the U.S. should always remain sovereign. The people of our country should not be subjected to yet another layer of beaurocracy meddling in their affairs.


I totally agree with you, but to the best of my knowledge it's not the UN's policy to tell the United States how to run our affairs. They generally get involved in international issues and human rights abuse issues (correct me if I'm wrong).

A hypothetical example: The US gets itself into too much debt, the economy collapses, and the military goes to shambles because of the budget problems. China, with the world's 2nd largest military decides to make the US a Communist country. To them, it is in our best interest. Obviously the majority of US citizens would be opposed to this (although China would likely find enough Communist supporters in the US to make an argument that Communism is what we want). This is where the UN could help out.

I see a similar situation in Iraq. The US is doing what it believes is best for Iraq, while the UN would do what Iraq believes is best for Iraq.

Of course, as z@z.com says, the UN is currently toothless. The US has pulled out all of their teeth, and is holding onto them. This is of course unfortunate, because a similar situation could occur if China became the next superpower (China would hold the UN's teeth).

Does that make sense? I don't think the UN wants to tell us how to run our affairs, only how to run other country's affairs.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1857628 - 08/28/03 03:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah,the UN is toothless because super powers like the US blatantly disregard it.I'm sure as hell not saying we're the only one,but we could set a nice example if we listened to the UN every once in a while.

I really don't see why we shouldn't leave and let the UN take over.The only arguement I've really heard against it is that the combat isn't totally over.Well,no shit.And it won't be over for a long time.But its not like the Baathists are going to retake the country.It just wouldn't happen.The coalition wouldn't have to withdrawal overnight either,we could gradually leave. It doesn't even seem like the US is even listening to anything the UN has to say (big suprise).


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 5 days
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: shakta]
    #1858003 - 08/28/03 07:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Are you saying the Iraqi's should be prevented from electing Islamic fundamentalists even if that is the will of the Iraqi people?


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 5 days
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1858006 - 08/28/03 07:06 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

the U.S. should NEVER obey the U.N.,




Well in that case the US sbould never have joined the U.N but seeing as they did perhaps they should try abiding by the rules they agreed on, as should all other members.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 26 days
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1858046 - 08/28/03 07:24 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Ooh, good point.  And the US Constitution even says "all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

The United States signed the UN Charter, so we're constitutionally bound by UN law!!!  But we all know Bush doesn't give a shit about the US constitution, nor do his supporters, obviously.  :shake: 


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
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Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858130 - 08/28/03 08:04 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Thats interesting! Not an interpretation that Bush and his cronies would feel very comfortable with though!


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Always Smi2le


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858244 - 08/28/03 09:31 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Ooh, good point.  And the US Constitution even says "all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

The United States signed the UN Charter, so we're constitutionally bound by UN law!!!  But we all know Bush doesn't give a shit about the US constitution, nor do his supporters, obviously.  :shake: 




Nice rhetoric. The UN charter allows for members to go to war without approval from the security council to defend themselves, which is what we did. You all conveniently forget the fact that we were not alone in this undertaking. This is not the first time that we have gone to war without UN approval. Remember Kosovo anyone? Clinton did not even go to the UN because he knew he would not get approval from the UN. Bush should have done the same thing.

The US should never be expected to bow down to the UN. We will work with them, and within that framework when we can, but if their goals do not match ours we won't. I know all you libbies don't care about our borders, and sovereignty, but I do.

This is a way for the UN to get involved in Iraq without them really having to do anything. They won't need to send in troops. The French mission in the Congo is a perfect example of what the US would like to happen. If it doesn't we can and will finish the job. We started the war and we have to finish it. Our money, and more importantly our soldiers lives are invested in making sure it turns out right. That is why we are not going to turn control over to the UN outright. Failing the Iraqi people now ,by not finishing the job, is not an option.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: UN approval for multinational force in Iraq? [Re: shakta]
    #1858471 - 08/28/03 11:39 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The UN charter allows for members to go to war without approval from the security council to defend themselves, which is what we did.

How on earth can you call the US invading Iraq "defending themselves"? That's as ludicrous as Hitlers excuses during his conquests.

You all conveniently forget the fact that we were not alone in this undertaking.

Oh yeah, i forgot. You had the Federated islands of Micronesia on board.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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