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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1313718 - 02/17/03 11:00 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i really don't disagree with you, knowing our gov't's history that's probably what will happen, but does that mean we shouldn't try and change things?
No. Eventually we will be able to bring to power a gov't that is acceptable to both the iraqi people and the US.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1313748 - 02/17/03 11:10 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Also true. However, it does not logically follow that America MUST or even SHOULD remove him from power.




if we don't who should. and don't say the iraqi people, because they can't.
Quote:

Even if it were possible for America to eliminate all such rulers (and it isn't), it would be a thankless task that once started could never be completed. America has no obligation to assist the oppressed people of the world in throwing off their shackles -- that's something the majority of them will have to do on their own.




first, with the help of the people of those nations, it is very possible to eliminate all such rulers.
it wouldn't be a thankless task. the people of iraq will be extremely grateful once we free them.
america may not be obligated to assist the oppressed people of the world, but it would be very cold of us to continue to look the other way while they contiue to suffer. throughout history, the bloodiest battles were usually revolutions, they absolutely destroy countries, leaving very little to rebuild with once the war is over. We would save countless lives by doing most of the fighting ourselves. Most of these dictators we could crush in days, it would take the people of the country years to do the same.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1313771 - 02/17/03 11:18 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i agree, i really don't trust the bush administration at all, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't go to war.
i really question any supposed link between Al-Qaeda and iraq, but think about it this way, how could saddam hurt america the most. supporting terrorism. bottom line. he would be stupid not to. it may not be al-qaeda, but there are many other terrorist groups in the world capable of attacking the US


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1313881 - 02/17/03 12:06 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

the US gov't does not control me. never has never will.


Well that's great, so you just go about doing whatever you want regardless of the gov't? That really makes them seem worthwhile.
Quote:

probably get all your info from the net, a very reliable source.


You know, assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
Quote:

cause GW planned the whole 9/11 thing.


How this fits in with anything I have said I have no idea. The fact that YOU brought this up is very interesting though.
Quote:

any gov't is going to try and control people to some extent.


Of course, they ARE the GOVERNment. They should control the people to some extent, but based on ideas made by and for ALL the people, not just the elite top 10% of the people. You know countries like the US and Australia include a diverse range of races, cultures and classes, all of which deserve to be taken care of by the gov't, indiscriminately.

Most of all I was trying to illustrate that it's all well and good to go around calling people "evil" and saying that they shouldn't be in power. But you have to realise that the opinions of those inside and outside of a country will be different (you obviously don't like an outsider like me calling YOUR gov't "evil.") I don't think it's right to impose your values onto another country and its culture. Being from Australia or the US we have first hand knowledge of what happens to a culture when foreign ideas are forced onto it (ie Aborigines or Native Americans.) Imagine that Russia is the most powerful country in the world (humour me.) Based on their own set of values, they decide that Dubya is an evil dictator and he must be stopped and they are going to mount a massive military offensive against the US. I think you would be singing a very different song then, would you not? I'm not trying to say that Saddam and Dubya are the same, all I'm trying to do is get you to realise that from an outside perspective they are both "evil," just in different ways.


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Invisiblephreakyzen
My God is anAwesome God

Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 274
Loc: Under the sea
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1314214 - 02/17/03 01:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

if we don't who should. and don't say the iraqi people, because they can't.




If they can't take care of themselves then why the hell would we liberate them? Are they going to be able to run a country by themselves? The US fought against odds to be liberated from the crown. Do you think if somebody else did it for us we would be the super power we are today? No we would be France.

That said if the Iraqi people want change then by god they have to get it themselves and they can if they want it bad enough! If they don't then let their leader do what he wants to them they have to live with him not me.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: phreakyzen]
    #1314571 - 02/17/03 04:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If they can't take care of themselves then why the hell would we liberate them? Are they going to be able to run a country by themselves? The US fought against odds to be liberated from the crown. Do you think if somebody else did it for us we would be the super power we are today? No we would be France.



It's funny you mention France, cuz without them, we would still be part of England.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1314747 - 02/17/03 05:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

touch?


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Invisiblephreakyzen
My God is anAwesome God

Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 274
Loc: Under the sea
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1314810 - 02/17/03 05:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It's funny you mention France, cuz without them, we would still be part of England.




Yes but they did not liberate us, there is a difference. We wanted to be free of English rule. We can help the Iraqi people with a revolution sure but they do not seem to want it. We are telling them "you will be liberated whether you like it or not" sounds like Chairman Mao to the Dalai Lama.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: phreakyzen]
    #1314817 - 02/17/03 05:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

True.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: phreakyzen]
    #1315205 - 02/17/03 07:40 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If they can't take care of themselves then why the hell would we liberate them?

Liberate? You installed Saddam in power and funded him throughout the 80's. You've kept the sanctions in place that have strengthened Saddams grip on power and slaughtered over 700,000 children under the age of 5. The last thing the Iraqi people need is more american "liberation".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1315271 - 02/17/03 08:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Just curious Alex, what do you think would be the best course of action in dealing with Iraq? I know that you feel America is at fault, and that's fine, I agree with you, to an extent. But what should happen now?


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1315518 - 02/17/03 10:43 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

You installed Saddam in power...

Incorrect.

You've kept the sanctions in place...

Incorrect.

...that have strengthened Saddams grip on power ...

Incorrect.

...and slaughtered over 700,000 children under the age of 5.

Incorrect.

pinky



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1315559 - 02/17/03 11:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

the US gov't does not control me. never has never will. i see from your loc that you're not from the us, so how did you come up with the opinion that we're all controlled by the gov't?



That's just a standard libbie phrase trotted out whenever someone reaches a different conclusion than they do.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1315561 - 02/17/03 11:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It's funny you mention France, cuz without them, we would still be part of England.



Really? And you know each and every twist and turn history would have taken had events unfolded differently?

What an amazing superpower to have.

Look! Up in a tree! It's ALTERED HISTORY MAN!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1315576 - 02/17/03 11:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

It is possible for you to stop installing them in power...

Already done. How many years has it been since a dictator was last "installed" in power by the US?

It does however have a responsibility to stop oppresing people by propping up thug dictators.

Already done. Which thug dictator does the US currently prop up?

pinky





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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1315964 - 02/18/03 06:41 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Already done

LOL!

You seriously telling me you can't think of a single dictatorship the US is propping up?

How many years has it been since a dictator was last "installed" in power by the US?

Try and think in terms of supporting dictators too.

Which thug dictator does the US currently prop up?

You're right.  The US only supports wonderful democracies and wouldn't dream of supporting maniacs like the Northern Alliance..whoops...and they definately would NEVER support a regime based on mass torture like Turkey..whoops...etc etc etc.. :smirk:



 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1316139 - 02/18/03 08:08 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

It's funny you mention France, cuz without them, we would still be part of England.



Really? And you know each and every twist and turn history would have taken had events unfolded differently?

What an amazing superpower to have.

Look! Up in a tree! It's ALTERED HISTORY MAN!



Have you read any history since 6th grade? Does the name "Lafayette" mean anything to you? You are aware that the French came to our aide during the Revolutionary War, right? I happen to be quite the history buff, and I'm practically addicted to the History Channel, so why don't you read up on history yourself before you question my knowledge of it, ok?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1316160 - 02/18/03 08:19 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

My knowledge of history is probably as good as yours but once again you missed the point.

The point was you, or anyone, can't possiby know what would happen if history was altered.

Let's see if your knowledge of recent history is any better. Please show where I questioned your knowledge of history.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (02/18/03 08:20 AM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1316162 - 02/18/03 08:20 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, I see.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: phreakyzen]
    #1316212 - 02/18/03 08:55 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yes but they did not liberate us, there is a difference. We wanted to be free of English rule. We can help the Iraqi people with a revolution sure but they do not seem to want it. We are telling them "you will be liberated whether you like it or not" sounds like Chairman Mao to the Dalai Lama.



WTF?? the iraqi people don't want to be liberated??
maybe you just don't hear about them protesting their gov't because if they did they would be killed. Journalists who go over to iraq report constantly that every single person in iraq is afraid to speak out. Of course, the kurds never ever attempted a rebellion did they? if we would have supported them then iraq would be a much different place now.


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