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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: ]
    #2256427 -

yeah, they were getting better deals than america...it actually does explain alot.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2256763 -

Azmodeus said:
:smirk: damn, im getting psycic now...i remeber saying how americas statement of liberation was bullshit, and if the above rant is any reflection of americas true feelings, your in for another viet nam, because the other arabs won't back down...



If at any time I've stated or alluded to me being the spokesperson for the whole of the American populace, I hereby renounce that and state that I am, in fact, not the spokesman for all of the Americans. If the other Arabs don't back down, from what I'm not sure, I'm sure we can teach them a lesson as well.  When we went into Kuwait, and then Iraq, the first time, Iraq had the best Army in the region. We tore through it so fast that some of our forces had to wait for everyone else to catch up.  IF the other arab nations find a need to intervene in our liberation of Iraq so that their pro-terrorist, anti-Semetic, anti-Israeli, anti-West style of dictatorship and oppression is protected, we'll deal with them as need be.

Quote:
Again i am amazed by the stupidity of ppl, and thier ignorance and the way they justify thier actions.  No wonder noone likes americans.


I like Americans!

If you would actually direct your attention to the points that were made rather than insinuating that I'm stupid or ignorant, maybe we could engage in a dialogue and discuss this matter more.

If Iraq signed an agreement that brought a cessation to hostilities, then violated the agreement, doesn't that mean that their should be an immediate resumption of conflict? Thats how it seems to me. That is what a "cease-fire agreement" is all about.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: ]
    #2256967 -

mushmaster said:

If that were truly the case, then why did Powell, Bush and Blair spend so much time trying (unsuccessfully) to get another resolution through the UN authorising force? Why spend all that time and effort and create all of the animosity with Germany, France and Russia if it was as simple as just starting the old war again? If this was such a clear-cut case, why didn't the UN vote go through?

look into the financial ties between these countries and hussein's iraq and it should become clear to you.


Those weren't the only countries to oppose the war though. Neither were they the only countries that Iraq was in debt to. The US is estimated to be owed about $5 billion. If you look into the financial ties between companies like Halliburton and Iraq, does the picture become clearer, or maybe muddier?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2256991 -

I like Americans!

enough to send 500+ to their deaths..for a few barrels of oil..and to catch a scumbucket named saddam hussein..who was by no means worth it...typical neocon logic...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2257017 -

Annapurna1 said:
I like Americans!

enough to send 500+ to their deaths..for a few barrels of oil..and to catch a scumbucket named saddam hussein..who was by no means worth it...typical neocon logic...


When you join the military, those are the risks you take. I'm not saying that it's acceptable, it's just the way that war works. Where are my barrels of oil at? Are they going to be UPS'ed to me? Do I need to sign for them?

Was WWII worth it to you?

Also, put the labelmaker down, using them only makes you look foolish and your point, weak.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2257045 -

Was WWII worth it to you?
thats a very good ?..given the society we've (d)evolved into...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2257439 -

Annapurna1 said:
Was WWII worth it to you?
thats a very good ?..given the society we've (d)evolved into...


Would you care to expound upon that topic a bit more, I think you are being too vague for me to give an answer.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2258969 -

exactly what cease-fire terms did the iraqis violate?? no banned weapons have been found in iraq.. nor is there any other evidence that such a violation occurred...

Amen.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2259504 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
Annapurna1 said:
Was WWII worth it to you?
thats a very good ?..given the society we've (d)evolved into...


Would you care to expound upon that topic a bit more, I think you are being too vague for me to give an answer.


It means its irrelevent who won ww2 as the same greed, hate, and conflict still exist today, yet in another form. In the end it is all irrelevent....rulers and nations come and go, and when you think about it dying for your coutry isn't as noble as the ppl sending you to fight for them would have you think,.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2259540 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
If at any time I've stated or alluded to me being the spokesperson for the whole of the American populace, I hereby renounce that and state that I am, in fact, not the spokesman for all of the Americans.


I never said you were the spokesman...i said i hope other americans don't feel as you do, but i fear they share similar views. This concerns me as i see your mentality as us vs. them which is absolutely self defeating. I know they seem more war mongering, but going over there and kicking thier ass the american way, doesn't do anything but agrivate the situation. Its like america is a petty spoiled child nation incapable of more than blind retaliation and dominance.

TheOneYouKnow said:If the other Arabs don't back down, from what I'm not sure, I'm sure we can teach them a lesson as well. When we went into Kuwait, and then Iraq, the first time, Iraq had the best Army in the region. We tore through it so fast that some of our forces had to wait for everyone else to catch up. IF the other arab nations find a need to intervene in our liberation of Iraq so that their pro-terrorist, anti-Semetic, anti-Israeli, anti-West style of dictatorship and oppression is protected, we'll deal with them as need be.


Other nations don't want ww3 and won't support you stay bribes, threats, and manipulation. YOU are in the middle east, yet say you will indiscriminately wage war on all arab nations who, in thier eyes, are protecting the west from establishing themselves in their area. How would you feel if an arab nation conquered mexico for instance?. Go ahead with your crusade, but with your economy, and the current unrest with americas aggresivness internationally, i do not think the resulting campaign would be as glorious as you envision my friend.

Quote:
TheOneYouKnow said:
I like Americans!


Are you american?

Quote:
TheOneYouKnow said:If you would actually direct your attention to the points that were made rather than insinuating that I'm stupid or ignorant, maybe we could engage in a dialogue and discuss this matter more.


Done, i have all day.

Quote:
TheOneYouKnow said:If Iraq signed an agreement that brought a cessation to hostilities, then violated the agreement, doesn't that mean that their should be an immediate resumption of conflict?


Why would you think that?! is hostility the only way to deal with things that don't work out? What about the logic that shows how most of the chemical agent to have expired by now...the confimed destroyed weapons. It doesn't take a president to see they are no threat to a country like america...hell not even thier arab neigboors.

Yes hostility could be imediately resumed, but that would be the most petty, greedy, self serving way to interpret it,,,,and make a fine profit at the same time. No wonder no-one likes americans. I hope you do take on the whole middle east and see why force is not an answer, or by any means a solution.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2259649 -

If the other Arabs don't back down, from what I'm not sure, I'm sure we can teach them a lesson as well.

I think the insurgency in Iraq is enough to be going on with.

And if you want to make a name for yourselves as studs I'd avoid invading places like Afghanistan and Iraq. That's not gonna impress anyone.

Iraq had the best Army in the region

Like Bill Hicks said - the Hare Krishna's had the most powerful army after Iraq.

If Iraq signed an agreement that brought a cessation to hostilities, then violated the agreement, doesn't that mean that their should be an immediate resumption of conflict? Thats how it seems to me. That is what a "cease-fire agreement" is all about.

May be to you but that's nothing like what it means under law. All a ceasefire is offering to "ACCEPT" terms. That doesn't even mean you have to put them into practise - you are simply accepting them. Certainly the UN resolution that defined the terms of the ceasefire had nothing to do with invading Iraq.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2260322 -

I had hoped you would respond earlier today, as i messaged you my responce sinse you were so put out i didn't elaborate. Your posting elsewhere...maby you forgot? ill check tomorrow, but im still at work for another hour...i'd be interested in hearing your views.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2260344 -

Alex123 said:
exactly what cease-fire terms did the iraqis violate?? no banned weapons have been found in iraq.. nor is there any other evidence that such a violation occurred...

Amen.


I think that mushmaster clearly answered that question in one of the numerous threads that i've seen you ask for proof in, then mysteriously disappear as soon as the proof arises. Let me make it a bit more clear for you, since you might have missed it.

1) Saddam wanted us to stop kicking his ass after we liberated Kuwait
2) Saddam signed a cease-fire agreement that we proposed. In it the terms were set that he not hinder weapons inspection at all, or the cease fire would be null and void.
3) Saddam violated that cease-fire agreement. The instant that any Iraqi military offical prevented the UN inspection team from inspecting any site, they were in violation of the cease-fire agreement and, as such, the hostilities should haveb een resumed immediately.

Now, either directly counter any fo those three points, easily numbered for your debating convienece, or have one more person on this board agreeing with the general concensus about you. Good day.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2260354 -

Azmodeus said:
It means its irrelevent who won ww2 as the same greed, hate, and conflict still exist today, yet in another form. In the end it is all irrelevent....rulers and nations come and go, and when you think about it dying for your coutry isn't as noble as the ppl sending you to fight for them would have you think,.


Thanks for answering me, sorry if I didn't get to this in time for you to catch it today.

The world changed alot with the Allied victory over Germany. Hitler died ro disappeared and the NSDAP and Nazism offically died(The modern day "nazis", truely aren't of the Nazi party and thus, in my mind, not Nazis, just bigots/anti-semites), the Holocaust ended, etceteras.

I don't think that ANY war will ever eliminate all evil, but we take them as we come. War might not end the ideals of evil, but they can sure as hell take out the death camps that are the tools of them.

I have to run now, sorry< i'll make a longer post later tonight.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2260441 -

Quote:
TheOneYouKnow said:
I don't think that ANY war will ever eliminate all evil, but we take them as we come. War might not end the ideals of evil, but they can sure as hell take out the death camps that are the tools of them.



Can you admit the opportunity for corruption in americas government? in the new homeland security legislation? how do you 'trust' them not to abuse this power as most every person with power has done since the dawn of our existance?

If you can admit the possiblity, then you can see how liberating a country like iraq seems more like a hidden agenda and less like an genuine concern about terrorists and americas safety.

The whole agument of broken ceasefire= resumption of hostility reminds me of a child hitting a man, and the man then beats this child to a bloody pulp in the name of self defense. They didn't even resume force, but i guess thats not enough for manly america. Heaven forbid they be the better nation and lead by example....find an alternate solution to force?

Another instance if albiet irrelevent is the beef scares. America immediately closed thier boarders to our beef, yet when reversed, canadian officals decided to wait for test results knowing border closures would drastically effect local markets down south.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

Edited by Azmodeus (01/21/04 04:37 PM)

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2261834 -

I think that mushmaster clearly answered that question in one of the numerous threads that i've seen you ask for proof in,

No, it's in the first page on this thread and as you can see I'm still here. Surely you do not disagree with Annapurna that no WMD have been found?

then mysteriously disappear as soon as the proof arises

Do you have an example of one of these threads? I'd like to read one. Or were you just making this story up? 

Saddam wanted us to stop kicking his ass after we liberated Kuwait

No, there was no intention by the Americans to invade Iraq. A weak Saddam was considered a better prospect than a strong fundamentalist ruler.

Saddam signed a cease-fire agreement that we proposed

No he didn't. Try and find this "ceasefire" for me.  What you'll find is a UN resolution. It's called UN resolution 687. All it calls on Iraq to do is "unconditionally accept" terms. That's how these things work - all a country is called on to do when they sign the ceasefire is to "accept" the terms. Think about that - it's important. 

In it the terms were set that he not hinder weapons inspection at all, or the cease fire would be null and void.

Horseshit. Find me where UN 687 says "If you hinder weapons inspections anytime ever we have the right to invade Iraq". You'll be looking an awful long time - why do you think Bush tried so desperately to get more resolutions? 

Saddam violated that cease-fire agreement

Again, can you find this "ceasefire" agreement you keep talking about? As I've explained to you you'll find a UN resolution. And absolutely nothing whatsoever in it saying "If you don't obey this we have the right to go to war".

The instant that any Iraqi military offical prevented the UN inspection team from inspecting any site, they were in violation of the cease-fire agreement and, as such, the hostilities should haveb een resumed immediately.

Horseshit. Everything you have stated is completly and utterly wrong. There was UN resolution 687. And there was nothing in this saying that hostilities be resumed if Iraq was in "violation" of an "ceasefire agreement".

Now, either directly counter any fo those three points

See above.

or have one more person on this board agreeing with the general concensus about you

My, you neocons do take things awfully personally don't you  :lol:

Why not try and address the issues instead of getting personal?

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2261986 -

Can we turn the clock back a bit and determine why we got our selves invoved with the Kuwait deal? A country the size of a large pea gets our attention from across the world, enough so that we ship a few troops over to intervene.

I am sure there are countries around the world that have been in a similar situation but are ignored because they are not an important playing piece in our grand game.

I also heard this rumour that Sadam was put into power by our government way back when.

This is all too much for me. How can one ever understand all of this, when one motive leads to another and is reflected off of some gold, be it black or yellow, and then split and rejoined and on and on. What we have now is far from a simple combination of 5-10 elements.

I want to learn more.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2262605 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
I have to run now, sorry< i'll make a longer post later tonight.


Im here all day again...msg me if you rebute my arguments.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2263516 -

Azmodeus said:
This concerns me as i see your mentality as us vs. them which is absolutely self defeating.



When "they" crash planes into "our" buildings, the line gets much clearer. When "they" support the groups that kill "our" people, the line gets much clearer.
Quote:
I know they seem more war mongering, but going over there and kicking thier ass the american way, doesn't do anything but agrivate the situation.



Observe the transformation in the state of libya. Their leader supported terrorist attacks that took down a British Air flight over Scotland, then their leader challenged the USA to come and attack him. We did go and attack him, and ever since then he has been much more moderate and, since 9/11, much more supportive of anti-terrorism legislation.

I also believe that the majority of the Arabs living in the Middle East are under a brutal tyrannical dictatorships that utilizes their total domination of the media to blame other sources for the misery that most Middle Eastern Arabs live in, while the ruling elite live in palaces. If we remove these leaders, much like we did in Iraq, and make it so that their way of life is somewhat comparable to our way of life, the people will be happier and less prone to want to kill "us".
Quote:
Its like america is a petty spoiled child nation incapable of more than blind retaliation and dominance.



It's more like America is the rich kid on the playground that everyone acts nice to his face so they can earn favors, then everyone talks bad about him behind his back.
Quote:
Other nations don't want ww3 and won't support you stay bribes, threats, and manipulation. YOU are in the middle east, yet say you will indiscriminately wage war on all arab nations who, in thier eyes, are protecting the west from establishing themselves in their area.



If these people are brainwashed by the total state-run media over in the Middle East, I feel very bad for them. However, I don't think that we should allow that process to continue, especially when it endangers Americans. You could say that same thing about Nazi Germany, that they just want to ensure that no Jews would build nations near theirs or take over their nation, but it doesn't give an effective prohibition from attacking them as we did.
Quote:
How would you feel if an arab nation conquered mexico for instance?. Go ahead with your crusade, but with your economy, and the current unrest with americas aggresivness internationally, i do not think the resulting campaign would be as glorious as you envision my friend.



If I lived in any nation that was about to be, or had recently been, taken by force from the previous government, I would analyze how each side lived. Living in America I am somewhat used to freedoms, having a computer and other entertainment devices, the ability to own an automobile (And allow my girlfriend to drive it), the ability to obtain alternative news sources, to go to libraries and read books about subjects that the government does not like, to practise (or not practise) any form of religion I choose and not be punished for it, the right to free elections, I would probably not be too pleased if a nation who's basic ideals were antithetical to that taking over. However, if I was starving and living in a dictatorship, and people from America wanted to make my nation more like theirs, well, Ican't say that I'd be too terribly upset.
Quote:
Why would you think that?! is hostility the only way to deal with things that don't work out? What about the logic that shows how most of the chemical agent to have expired by now...the confimed destroyed weapons. It doesn't take a president to see they are no threat to a country like america...hell not even thier arab neigboors.



If you violate a cease-fire agreement, you are back at war. Thats pretty logical. "If you do , we will not destroy yourinfrastructure and remove you from power". Obviously, if the subject did "x", the results are clearly spelled out.
Quote:
Yes hostility could be imediately resumed, but that would be the most petty, greedy, self serving way to interpret it,,,,and make a fine profit at the same time. No wonder no-one likes americans. I hope you do take on the whole middle east and see why force is not an answer, or by any means a solution.


Should we interpret it in a way that the loser is contining to do the things we don't want them to, and that is a positive step? We told Saddam that we would rather just send in inspectors and be sure that he does not have said weapons than go into Iraq with military force and remove him from power. He agreed to that. If he breaks that agreement, the entire agreement is nullified. If Japanese forces had continued to wage war on the US, we wouldn't have just let them continue to do it and thought of some brand new solution, we'd use the one that worked out so well against them.

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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2265682 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
Azmodeus said:
This concerns me as i see your mentality as us vs. them which is absolutely self defeating.



When "they" crash planes into "our" buildings, the line gets much clearer. When "they" support the groups that kill "our" people, the line gets much clearer.


Two wrongs don't make a right,,,you justified thier actions by your retaliation...why can't you grasp the concept that force cannot defeat force. Even if you conquered the entire middle east there would always be another force like china. It is a circle and is self defeating....we are all the same ppl.

TheOneYouKnow said:
Azmodeus said:
I know they seem more war mongering, but going over there and kicking thier ass the american way, doesn't do anything but agrivate the situation.



Observe the transformation in the state of libya. Their leader supported terrorist attacks that took down a British Air flight over Scotland, then their leader challenged the USA to come and attack him. We did go and attack him, and ever since then he has been much more moderate and, since 9/11, much more supportive of anti-terrorism legislation.


Oh please...on the surface yes, because they don't want to end up like iraq, but do you think that he was humbled....realised the errors of his ways, and not helps his ppl...the ones he used to support? He's playing both sides, and even if they did genuinely repent, another force is waiting...

Quote:
TheOneYouKnow said:I also believe that the majority of the Arabs living in the Middle East are under a brutal tyrannical dictatorships that utilizes their total domination of the media to blame other sources for the misery that most Middle Eastern Arabs live in, while the ruling elite live in palaces. If we remove these leaders, much like we did in Iraq, and make it so that their way of life is somewhat comparable to our way of life, the people will be happier and less prone to want to kill "us".


That statement is full of assumptions

What makes you think they want to live like you?!, you seem to think your way of life is better, and that they have no choice in how they live. The problem is you are right about them blaming theier problems on others....thier leaders exploit them, and tell them lies to make them think westerners are evil, and bent on conquering the muslim nation....not unlike a similar tactic employed by your administration.


Reading the rest of your post, i see nothing i say is going to change your attitude, and while i understand your arguments, i do not agree with them. Thank you for taking the time to elaborat on your perspectives.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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