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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!!
    #1311793 - 02/16/03 01:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, lately just about everyone who i've seen post here is against the war in Iraq.
There are many reasons for this, the main one being that people think it's all just a big war for oil, and our corrupt government leaders are just doing this to line their pockets. This may be somewhat true, but i doubt the US would be able to get away with turning Iraq into a puppet state with all the attention this is getting from the world. Also, the only way there will be any peace in iraq is if after the war, we turn their government completely over to them.

Anyways, IMHO anyone who opposes regime change in Iraq is either misinformed or a coward. Saddam is a ruthless dictator who has committed countless warcrimes, and kept millions of iraqis fearing for their lives if they even hint at disobedience. We in the united states are given opportunities that they could only dream of, and i can guarantee you they go to bed each night praying for liberation. And make no mistake, Saddam will not go peacefully. Even if he has no weapons of mass destruction (which he certainly does), even if he has no links to terrorist groups (which he certainly does), should we allow these people to contiue to be oppressed? Hell no. We have the power to take him out, and the world as a whole will be a better place without him.

IMO, after iraq we should set our sights on the other evil dictators of the world, because there are several, and liberate there people as well. I think a lot of us don't realize just how DOMINANT our army is. We smoked saddam last time in a few days of ground combat, and the majority of the casualities were to the republican gaurd (hardly innocents). Although this will be a completely different war, and probably involve some heavy casualties in urban combat, we will without a doubt destroy the iraqi army with only 20% of our armed forces even involved. (right now there's something like 12% in the region)

We may lose lives, but that is a sacrifice we should be willing to make to free the iraqi people. What are all you anitwar protestors going to do for them? If those protests occured against the iraqi government in baghdad, you would all be dead right now.



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Invisiblephreakyzen
My God is anAwesome God

Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 274
Loc: Under the sea
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1311827 - 02/16/03 02:05 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

How many Tibetan children were forced to hold guns to their parents heads and pull the trigger and where were we?

In 1987 Saddam supposedly gassed his own people when at the time the US government said it was the Iranians and had proof. 6 months later the administration with George Bush Sr. gave him 1 billion dollars knowing full well what had gone down. In 1991 Saddam invaded Kuwait after getting the go ahead by the CIA. One of the reasons he invaded was because Kuwait was slant drilling with US equipment into Iraq. At the end of the Gulf war, US troops stood idly by while Saddam's presidential guard ruthlessly suppressed the popular uprising by the Kurds.

Now I am not sticking up for Saddam I have heard many bad things and I do not doubt half of them. What I am trying to say is don't for a second believe that this country or it's government cares about the Iraqi people. If you yourself care about human rights you should stop wearing cloths from the Gap and Old Navy and never buy anything made in China.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: phreakyzen]
    #1311873 - 02/16/03 02:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i don't really disagree with anything in your post at all.
my point is any bad that a war with iraq will bring, will be outweighed by the good it will do.
also, i really don't think that the US govn't will be able to exploit postwar iraq be the international community won't allow it. (not the bush wont try)


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: phreakyzen]
    #1311875 - 02/16/03 02:27 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What I am trying to say is don't for a second believe that this country or it's government cares about the Iraqi people.



the govn't may not, that doesn't mean the country doesb't


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1311894 - 02/16/03 02:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Does this mean that we can set our sites on Dubya once we've finished with Saddam and all the other "evil" dictators? I don't see much of a difference between Saddam oppressing his people who live in fear and the US gov't oppressing it's people who live in fear. Just because it's more subtle and "subliminable" doesn't mean its any less "evil."


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: MushyMay]
    #1311933 - 02/16/03 02:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

don't see much of a difference between Saddam oppressing his people who live in fear and the US gov't oppressing it's people who live in fear.



r u drunk??
days after he came into power saddam read off a list one by one of every person in iraq's government. After he said there name he said whether or not that person was conspiring against the gov't. If he said they were, they were taken from the room. something like 25% of the political leaders were said to be conspiring against saddam. After they were taken out, he told those who were left that their reward for their loyaltly was that they were to the firing squad the next morning of those who had been taken out of the room. By the end, they were all so scared that shouted "long live saddam...."
yep, that happens every day in the US though, we should just leave poor saddam alone.


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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,478
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1311937 - 02/16/03 02:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

people think it's all just a big war for oil, and our corrupt government leaders are just doing this to line their pockets. This may be somewhat true, but i doubt the US would be able to get away with turning Iraq into a puppet state with all the attention this is getting from the world.



I dont really thing that wars over oil are really for personal gain by a few top officials. I think that the major reason is for the sake of the nation and our dependance on foreign oil.. This is still a verry sad fact...

As for the US not being able to turn Iraq into a puppet, well we are already holding distribution of Iraqi oil over the heads of nations that opose us.
We have already told France and Russia that uf they wont support us then they wont get any Iraqi oil. SOURCE

Reguardeless of the reasons behind our nations dependance on oil, its still wrong and it dont need to be this way so war is NOT the answer.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


Edited by GabbaDj (02/16/03 02:58 PM)


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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,478
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1311949 - 02/16/03 02:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anyways, IMHO anyone who opposes regime change in Iraq is either misinformed or a coward. Saddam is a ruthless dictator who has committed countless warcrimes, and kept millions of iraqis fearing for their lives if they even hint at disobedience.



Sadam has been a good leader, the best the country has ever had in fact. He has raised the level of eduication and personal freedoms over the past decade by leaps and bounds, he has improved sanitation and living conditions in major cities and he has improved business as a whole for the country. The fact is that the majority of people in Iraq love the guy and would lay down and die for him if given the chance. This is not because of he threatens their lives, its not because he holds their children hostage. Its because he has done ALOT more for the people than anyone else...
Sure he could do more but whats he got to work with due to Sanctions and the US destroying everything he builds?

As for War Crimes... Their is a world watch group appointed and voted in by the US and other countries to handle these matters.. They have found no attrocities or war crimes commited by Sadam and they feel no need to go after him... Neither should we.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1311992 - 02/16/03 03:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sadam has been a good leader, the best the country has ever had in fact. He has raised the level of eduication and personal freedoms over the past decade by leaps and bounds, he has improved sanitation and living conditions in major cities and he has improved business as a whole for the country. The fact is that the majority of people in Iraq love the guy and would lay down and die for him if given the chance. This is not because of he threatens their lives, its not because he holds their children hostage. Its because he has done ALOT more for the people than anyone else...




hmm... best leader ever...raised the level of education...improved sanitation and living conditions...improved business as a whole...
sounds kinda like what hitler did. It's amazing how efficiently a group of terrified citizens will work together.
the iraqi people LOVE SADDAM?
that is fucking retarded, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, the sad fact of the matter is if at anytime anywhere an iraqi citizen openly criticizes saddam or the gov't the disappear the next day never to be seen again.


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Anonymous

Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1312042 - 02/16/03 03:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

IMO, after iraq we should set our sights on the other evil dictators of the world

many of whom we have installed. and also, you do realize that china, a very large trading partner of ours, is run by a totalitarian government with an abysmal human rights record and no respect for civil liberties... don't you? shall we attack them next? war is the most ugly thing there is. the civilian populace of any nation suffers more from an invasion than from decades of oppression. and we don't get rid of totalitarian dictators and bring in democracy. we get rid of anti-american dictators and install pro-american dictators. that's how it works. i like your ideals though.

p.s. this was is about oil.



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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1312047 - 02/16/03 03:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think maybe your the one who is drunk. So the US gov't doesn't control the people by threatening death, that doesn't mean that the devices it uses for control are any less sinister. I'd say that Saddam uses primitive methods to enforce his power because his population are forced to live in primitive conditions. Many have nothing to lose but their lives. He is a dictator after all. He gives orders and uses scare tactics to make sure they are followed ie. do as I say or die. The US is a much more advanced society (in many ways, but certainly not all) therefore its gov't uses more sophisticated techniques to control the population. Much of the population is not living in fear of "do as the gov't says or die" but they also have a lot more to lose (in many cases) and therefore don't need such obvious threats. For example "don't use drugs or you won't get funding for college."



--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1312171 - 02/16/03 04:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Also, the only way there will be any peace in iraq is if after the war, we turn their government completely over to them.



Let me give you a quick run down as to what will happen:

1. America attacks, kills tens of thousands and destroys the current regime.

2. America tries to find a suitable "puppet" regime to make the country look like it has regained control of itself. What is really happening is that America has found a group of people who will listen to our requests for securing cheaper oil and providing irrigated water to Israel.

3. After a couple of years, America decides to pull out because we've almost completely exhausted the benefits of a regime change. Now, as the struggling country has no more backing from the super-power, revolution and rebellion ensue. A new regime is installed (or takes over) because the puppet regime had no idea as to what they were doing in the first place (hence the word "puppet").

4. Once again, America has created a regime that is full of hatred towards them. They know about America using their country for profit, and once again we have another Saddam Hussein on our hands.

5. Repeat


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


Edited by Angry Mycologist (02/16/03 05:00 PM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1312302 - 02/16/03 06:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

flow writes:

We have the power to take him out...

True.

... and the world as a whole will be a better place without him.

Also true. However, it does not logically follow that America MUST or even SHOULD remove him from power.

IMO, after iraq we should set our sights on the other evil dictators of the world, because there are several, and liberate there people as well.

There are several? Hell, there are DOZENS. Even if it were possible for America to eliminate all such rulers (and it isn't), it would be a thankless task that once started could never be completed. America has no obligation to assist the oppressed people of the world in throwing off their shackles -- that's something the majority of them will have to do on their own.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1312586 - 02/16/03 07:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Even if it were possible for America to eliminate all such rulers (and it isn't)

It is possible for you to stop installing them in power, funding them and selling them weapons tho.

America has no obligation to assist the oppressed people of the world in throwing off their shackles

It does however have a responsibility to stop oppresing people by propping up thug dictators. Don't worry about saving anyone, just stop funding dictators.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1312643 - 02/16/03 08:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

It is possible for you to stop installing them in power, funding them and selling them weapons tho.

And the USSR never "installed" a leader? Other countries haven't provided foreign aid (which as you have pointed out yourself is usually diverted straight into the pockets of the leader of the country receiving same) to countries run by thugs, or sold weapons?

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1312661 - 02/16/03 08:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

to me this situation is just like trying to get a pack of angry dogs with rabies(sp?) out of your house. they are going to bark and if you walk in you arent going to get out without a bite.. who knows how deep the bite is. who knows how big the threat is. my concern is why is bush going in NOW . why wait all this time instead of going in one year ago? or when the saddam refused to let any inspectors in. what changes the situation? This variable and sudden action just makes me wonder and brings me not to trust our governments actions. If they suddenly have a move to go in now why? they are contradicting their previous actions and i just dont trust what the fuck they are doing . i know that by doing this they are "up to no good" and i fear that if they try to go in their like they can tame the wild we all will end up with some shitty situation on our hands. and i mean it may not even be a big threat right now anyway, if he did get rid of his weapons hes given them to terrorists most likely and then wtf can we do about it? i dont know, the whole situation is stupid and i fear for the future of mankind. such bullshit is going to gridlock and who knows what will happen.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1312812 - 02/16/03 10:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Right On Zero. I think the entire situation is very suspicious. You can rationalise it in many different ways, weapons of mass destruction, terrorists, Saddam the evil dictator, oil, etc etc. The main question that needs answering is Why Saddam and Why Now? There are other countries with wmd, there are other countries who harbour terrorists, so Why Saddam and Why Now? Why are they in such a hurry to get him Now?


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Anonymous

Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: MushyMay]
    #1312849 - 02/16/03 10:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Good questions indeed.

NOW because the American public is in a state of fear and panic, and because of 9/11 they are trying to make it seem necessary.

Makes you wonder if 9/11 just happened to occur, or if they knew it was coming and let it so they could have excuses to do all kinds of BS.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: ]
    #1313688 - 02/17/03 10:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

IMO, after iraq we should set our sights on the other evil dictators of the world

many of whom we have installed. and also, you do realize that china, a very large trading partner of ours, is run by a totalitarian government with an abysmal human rights record and no respect for civil liberties... don't you? shall we attack them next?



i'm not saying that we should neccesarily just go and attack every country that is oppressing it's citizens, but we should start stepping up the pressure on china, columbia, north korea, etc.. if they don't listen, hell yeah attack them. if we spent the next twenty years doing so, in the end, the world would be a much better place for everyone. Not doing so helps no one but Americans.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: MushyMay]
    #1313712 - 02/17/03 10:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I think maybe your the one who is drunk. So the US gov't doesn't control the people by threatening death, that doesn't mean that the devices it uses for control are any less sinister. I'd say that Saddam uses primitive methods to enforce his power because his population are forced to live in primitive conditions. Many have nothing to lose but their lives. He is a dictator after all. He gives orders and uses scare tactics to make sure they are followed ie. do as I say or die. The US is a much more advanced society (in many ways, but certainly not all) therefore its gov't uses more sophisticated techniques to control the population. Much of the population is not living in fear of "do as the gov't says or die" but they also have a lot more to lose (in many cases) and therefore don't need such obvious threats. For example "don't use drugs or you won't get funding for college."




the US gov't does not control me. never has never will. i see from your loc that you're not from the us, so how did you come up with the opinion that we're all controlled by the gov't?
probably get all your info from the net, a very reliable source. cause GW planned the whole 9/11 thing.
any gov't is going to try and control people to some extent. Does your's not try and control you by enforcing laws?
the whole war on drugs is a seperate issue, and most of the people in the US actually support it (they are usually extremely misinformed however). Although our election process is extremely flawed, our's is still very much a gov't of the people. (i know everyone here probably disagrees but those who come here are a very small part of overall society.)


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