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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1321547 - 02/20/03 09:21 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Sure. Invade Iraq and see if the people prefer the new puppet government over Saddam.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1321583 - 02/20/03 09:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Lets face it, it's just going to be another savage, brutal thug only one who does what he's told.

Look at the savage human rights abuses in the US backed Kuwait regime.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1321621 - 02/20/03 09:56 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They are two different things, yes, but how often do you hear about the US planning on sending that much money in aid to a country? If they aren't willing to do that, then why are they willing to spend that much to save the citizens of Iraq?




what country has ever spent that much money in aid to another? it's irrelevant really because it has nothing to do with the war, but while we're on the topic, which country do you think gave out the most money overall in foreign aid last year?
Them fucking warmongers in the US thats who.
 
Quote:

"Would bush kill people on purpose?"

Do you KNOW what a war is? They don't use the guns and bombs to scare people.




umm, way to try and take something i wrote completely out of context.
by people, we were talking about innocent civilians, not iraqi soldiers.
yes, plenty of the republican gaurd will be slaughtered by our superior forces. boo hoo.  :frown:
Quote:

Give me one shred of evidence that shows they do. Even if they do, can you come up with one little shred of evidence that shows they want him to be taken out violently? By a foreign nation? 



well, the kurds who represent about a third of iraq have started multiple revolutions and "uprisings" since the 60's.  I don't think they were trying to take him out with hugs and kisses either. Also, they looked to many countries for help, primarily the US through the CIA, and earlier they were supported by iran.  How could you not know that? Seems like pretty common knowledge. Are you inbred, or do you just like asking stupid questions?
i believe this would qualify as a shred, but there's actually a whole shitload, but don't take my word for it, educate yourself
Kanan Makiya is a prominent iraqi writer and dissident, his books basically outline this shitload of evidence. pick up Republic of Fear: The Inside Story of Saddam's Iraq, maybe learn a thing or two....
 


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Asante]
    #1321664 - 02/20/03 10:12 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have seen a field, larger than a football field, full of bigass storage tanks of VX nerve gas precursor. Was this on Iraqi soil? No: it was on the Discovery channel, footage shot in the good ole USA.
"It's all destroyed now". Sure! When you've bought a gun you can throw out the slingshot, can't you?

The "Daisycutter" bomb contains about 20.000lbs of high explosive. It can take out a couple of city blocks and has been used multiple times in Afganisthan. Several 1.000 refugees have died from it. A weapon of mass destruction? don't be silly!




are there any UN sanctions against the US having weapons of mass destruction?
This isn't a question of the morality of these weapons, it's the fact that iraq was ordered by the UN to give them up, and saddam did not comply.
Quote:

Read somewhere the option of pre-emptive strike using nuclear weapons was studied.. By the good ole US Gov't.
Pre-emptive...
Nuclear weapons...
Had to think about that for some time...




Big difference between studying and using, Saddam USED WMD. (yes the US did drop the Abomb, but the circumstances were much different.)
Quote:

And now the scary part.The r???lly scary stuff. The US are gonna attack. Surgical strike, carpet bombing, all out nuclear assault... Whatever.




surgical strike, not whatever
Quote:

What if Bush bombs the WRONG building & the germ escapes? What if a couple of tubes of it are in major US cities already? We all know grass & coke are smuggled by the boatload... Sure some cigarette-sized test tubes didn't get in? And then what? Retaliatory nuclear strike? Mutually Assured Destruction?




yep, that is a likely scenario i'll admit, but say we leave saddam in power. As i've said before, his best option for striking the US would be to fund terrorists to carry out just the sort of things you're talking about. Is not attacking really going to decrease the likelihood of a smallpox attack on the US? Maybe short term, but not in the long run.


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Offlineflow
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Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1321669 - 02/20/03 10:13 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sure. Invade Iraq and see if the people prefer the new puppet government over Saddam.



ok, will do.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1321685 - 02/20/03 10:20 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Lets face it, it's just going to be another savage, brutal thug only one who does what he's told.




no, it won't, you're ignorant if you think that any country in the UN is just going to let the US install anyone. Iraq is arguably the most important country in the middle east, even if the US tries, the situation in iraq has received way too much international attention. Also, it's looking like we're not going to end up going in alone, it won't be tottally up to the US at the end of the war.
Quote:

Look at the savage human rights abuses in the US backed Kuwait regime.



does this really have anything to do with it?? Name the top three powers in the world today, they are just as bad as the US. The French are doing just wonderful things with the Ivory Coast today. Don't you agree?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1321731 - 02/20/03 10:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"it's irrelevant really because it has nothing to do with the war"

It's not irrelevant at all. Why is the US willing to spend so much more to "help" the citizens of Iraq by bombing them, when they could help citizens of other countries who need it a whole lot more?

"umm, way to try and take something i wrote completely out of context.
by people, we were talking about innocent civilians, not iraqi soldiers.
yes, plenty of the republican gaurd will be slaughtered by our superior forces. boo hoo."

Okay, so that means that you were saying Saddam was ready to slaughter his own people to win the war. Based on what? What possible strategy would involve him blowing up his own people? Last time, thousands of innocent Iraqi civillians were killed in the bombing campaigns over Baghdad. Sure, CNN told you that they were only targeting munitions factories and all that, and I'm sure that was the PRIMARY aim, but bombing cities is a great way to decrease morale. It's a tactic that was used by both sides in the second world war, and in pretty much every war since. To say that the US has magically stopped using this tactic is naive.

"well, the kurds who represent about a third of iraq have started multiple revolutions and "uprisings" since the 60's."

The Kurds may represent a third of the Iraqi people, but they aren't all fighting, and they aren't even fighting to take Saddam out of power. They're fighting to get their own state again. Their beef with the Iraqi government has nothing to do with how they treat dissidents, it's the fact that they can't have the city of Kirkuk for themselves.

"Are you inbred, or do you just like asking stupid questions?"

Good to see you can be mature about this.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1321753 - 02/20/03 10:40 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"As i've said before, his best option for striking the US would be to fund terrorists to carry out just the sort of things you're talking about. Is not attacking really going to decrease the likelihood of a smallpox attack on the US? Maybe short term, but not in the long run."

When has Saddam EVER shown any direct hostility to the US?

No matter what Colin Powell tells you, there is no good evidence to support the idea that Iraq has any terrorist connections. Hans Blix made it pretty clear in his presentation that Colin Powell's presentation was bullshit. Bin Laden has spoken out against Saddam before, because he's obviously not a real believer in Islam, and his country has far too much freedom.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineflow
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Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1321828 - 02/20/03 11:01 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It's not irrelevant at all. Why is the US willing to spend so much more to "help" the citizens of Iraq by bombing them, when they could help citizens of other countries who need it a whole lot more?




yes, it is irrelevant, obviously we're not in this thing ONLY to help the people of iraq, we are doing it to support a UN sanction backed by just about every major country in the world. and we're not bombing the citizens of iraq, we surgically bomb strategic military sights, and we do it better than anyone else.
Quote:

Okay, so that means that you were saying Saddam was ready to slaughter his own people to win the war. What possible strategy would involve him blowing up his own people?



Saddam purposely puts military targets next to hospitals, schools, in cities, etc... knowing that this will cause higher civilian casualites. Thats the only thing i know that he has done, it's really a question of what he will do.
and i wasn't saying this, the quote from an iraqi diplomat was, but you would know better than him wouldn't you?
Quote:

Last time, thousands of innocent Iraqi civillians were killed in the bombing campaigns over Baghdad.



mostly because of what i stated above, and again civilian casualities are inevitable.
Quote:

Sure, CNN told you that they were only targeting munitions factories and all that, and I'm sure that was the PRIMARY aim, but bombing cities is a great way to decrease morale. It's a tactic that was used by both sides in the second world war, and in pretty much every war since. To say that the US has magically stopped using this tactic is naive.




yes, the US has stopped using this tactic, to think they have continued is paranoia. THIS ISN'T WWII, we don't need to decrease morale, we're not fighting a counrty, we're fighting a regime. are you saying the US just bombs cities without targeting specific military installations??? This is moronic, believe it the gov't of the US want the iraqi people to like the US, and they know the easiest way to do so is to LOWER CIVILIAN CASUALITES. Also, who is going to foot the bill for rebuilding iraq? Why would we just destroy cities without military targets knowing we were just going to have to rebuild them??
Quote:

Good to see you can be mature about this.



im just getting sick of proving your stupid points wrong


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Offlineflow
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Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1321842 - 02/20/03 11:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

No matter what Colin Powell tells you, there is no good evidence to support the idea that Iraq has any terrorist connections. Hans Blix made it pretty clear in his presentation that Colin Powell's presentation was bullshit. Bin Laden has spoken out against Saddam before, because he's obviously not a real believer in Islam, and his country has far too much freedom.



I said nothing about Al-Qaeda, it is unlikely iraq is dealing with them. There are many, many terrorist groups in the world besides Al-Qaeda. Ever heard of freelance terrorism?? It happens all the time, and is usually funded by people with a lot less power than saddam.


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Offlineflow
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Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1321849 - 02/20/03 11:07 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

When has Saddam EVER shown any direct hostility to the US?




when did Saddam ever show any direct hostility to Kuwait before he invaded?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1322043 - 02/20/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Sure. Invade Iraq and see if the people prefer the new puppet government over Saddam.



ok, will do.



If you can find a way to do that without using any of my tax money, then go right on ahead. If not, I'd like to know my taxes are being used for a better cause than that.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1322066 - 02/20/03 12:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

  I'd like to know my taxes are being used for a better cause than that.


In that case your probably going to have to move to another country. :wink: 


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1322476 - 02/20/03 03:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"yes, the US has stopped using this tactic, to think they have continued is paranoia. THIS ISN'T WWII, we don't need to decrease morale, we're not fighting a counrty, we're fighting a regime."

You have no idea how a war is fought. Decreasing morale is key in defeating a country, and yes, you'd be fighting a country, not just a regime. When a regime achieves power, they're usually pretty good at using propaganda to keep the people supporting them. The Nazis did this in the 40's, and Saddam is doing it now. Iraq has an army. It is made up of soldiers, who are all citizens of Iraq.

"are you saying the US just bombs cities without targeting specific military installations?"

No. They go after factories and military targets, and lots of civillians are killed as a result.

"im just getting sick of proving your stupid points wrong "

Most of the points you've raised have just been opinions as to why I'm wrong, and no actual proof. I'd say we're about equal on that front.

Still, do you honestly believe that invading Iraq is going to make people think more highly of the United States? The vast majority of the people in the middle east are against military action in Iraq. Even the slightest fuck-up is going to be spun badly for you. You can't win the hearts of the world be attacking people.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1322484 - 02/20/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"when did Saddam ever show any direct hostility to Kuwait before he invaded? "

Well, first off, he had an actual reason for invading Kuwait. Secondly, he even discussed the invasion with the United States, and thirdly, he knew he could invade Kuwait successfully.

Saddam knows he can't win a war against the US, and I don't think he wants one. He's made some efforts to comply with the UN, and has never shown any aggression towards the US. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that Iraq wishes to attack the United States.

Another question, why is the United States allowed to have weapons of mass destruction?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1322499 - 02/20/03 03:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Was it likely a communist would have been installed for example?

Considering what the communists did to Afghanistan during their occupation, I think it highly unlikely.

Do dictators installed by the US and kept in power for the last 30 years count?

Sigh. Alex, you suggested that the US stop "installing" dictators. They have stopped. What part of "stopped" are you having difficulty comprehending?

Off the top of my head installed in the last decade or two there's been General Rabuka...

The General Rabuka of Fiji who seized power through a coup in 1987? The US didn't "install" him.

...Rios Mont...

The same Rios Mont who ruled Guatemala for a year and a half in the early Eighties? The US didn't "install" Rios Mont.

...Cerezo...

I assume you are referring to the leader of the Guatemalan Christian Democratic Party who was elected by Guatemalans in 1986? He wasn't "installed" by the US.

... Fujimori...

You can't be serious. Fujimori was elected, not "installed". He was elected twice more, and, as I am sure you are aware but refuse to tell the readers of this thread, his most recent re-election was soundly criticized by both the US and the OAS, citing fraudulent signatures on his candidate registration petition and irregularities during the vote itself. Try again, Alex.

...returning the kuwait regime to power 1991...

Oh, please. The US neither "installed" the Kuwaiti government in place at the time of Iraq's invasion nor "returned" it to power.

...the attempts at destabilisation in Bulgaria and Albania.

You are claiming that the US "installed" the leaders of Bulgaria and Albania? Come to Cabarete and talk to the Bulgarian expatriate community here and in Sosua if you are interested in fact rather than fantasy.

So why did they do the americans ground fighting for them?

Good grief, Alex, do you even READ what I write or do you just lapse into some Pavlovian kneejerk frenzy whenever you see a post with my name on it? Read my lips... they didn't do any fighting on behalf of the Americans. They did the fighting on behalf of themselves. They were trying to depose the Taliban before the United Nations forces arrived in Afghanistan. They would have continued to fight the Taliban even if the UN forces had never been in Afghanistan. Some of them are STILL fighting, and some of them will doubtless KEEP fighting long after every non-Afghani leaves Afghanistan.

Could you tell me when they stopped exactly? Which president did this?

We know that Pinochet gained power through CIA intervention in Chile's political process when Nixon was still president, so until you can provide an example of another dictator who was actually installed by the US after 1973, let's say Gerald Ford. And, as has been pointed out here several times by several contributors, Hussein was not "installed" by the US. he rose through the ranks of the Ba'ath party on his own, and seized power on his own.

I am not disputing that the US (and many other countries, as you yourself admit) has had dealings with countries headed by totalitarian thugs since 1973, I am merely pointing out that the US stopped "installing" dictators long ago.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1322508 - 02/20/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Phluck asks:

When has Saddam EVER shown any direct hostility to the US?

Does his plot to assassinate Bush the First count?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1322680 - 02/20/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I don't have the sources right now, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that that supposed assasination attempt was fabricated.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (02/20/03 04:42 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1323378 - 02/20/03 10:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Considering what the communists did to Afghanistan during their occupation, I think it highly unlikely

No, the communists were in power before the russian invasion when Afghanistan was so peaceful it was part of the hippy trail. It was american destabilisation attempts that prompted the invasion.

Sigh. Alex, you suggested that the US stop "installing" dictators

Define what you mean by "installing". Does arming and funding terrorist groups so that they have enough strength to seize power count as installing? Lets face it, after installing dictators for 50 years there's going to be a point where you've already got most of them installed isn't there. That doesn't mean you've "stopped" installing them.

The US didn't "install" him.

oh come, come. Once again, clarify what you mean by "installing" do you include funding and arming a group so they can attain power "installing"? Without american help these people would have had no prayer of attaining power, with american help they seize control of the country. Is that "installing" a dictator?

The same Rios Mont who ruled Guatemala for a year and a half in the early Eighties? The US didn't "install" Rios Mont.

Bullshit. Without massive US support he would never have attained power.

You can't be serious. Fujimori was elected, not "installed".

Elected. LOL.

Once again, massive US support, terrorising the electorate, killing opposition members. That's what i call installing dictators. What is your definition of installing dictators?

The US neither "installed" the Kuwaiti government in place at the time of Iraq's invasion nor "returned" it to power.

Don't be a moron. That's what the entire war was about. Returning the rulers of Kuwait to the throne. Why didn't they remove them and have free elections?

You are claiming that the US "installed" the leaders of Bulgaria and Albania?

No, read it again. I said attempts at destabilisation. That means you're trying to influence and control who rules the country.

Good grief, Alex, do you even READ what I write

It usually isn't worth the effort.

They did the fighting on behalf of themselves

No, they didn't. According to you Karzai has power.

They were trying to depose the Taliban before the United Nations forces arrived in Afghanistan

*sigh*....how many times...THE AMERICANS HAD COMMITTED TO REMOVING THE TALIBAN WITH OR WITHOUT NORTHERN ALLIANCE HELP. WHY DID THE NORTHERN ALLIANCE FIGHT AND DIE FOR SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ANYWAY? ARE THEY GOING TO RISK THEIR MEN AND ARMS IN AN UTTERLY POINTLESS TASK WITHOUT PROMISES AND MONEY/ARMS?

They would have continued to fight the Taliban even if the UN forces had never been in Afghanistan

Read the above point. This time try and address it.

am merely pointing out that the US stopped "installing" dictators long ago.

So what do you call funding the contras during the 80's?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1323443 - 02/20/03 11:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Good grief, Alex, do you even READ what I write

It usually isn't worth the effort.




Well it was pretty obvious you don't read what others write, but thanks for finally admitting it openly.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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