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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 13 days
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: MushyMay]
    #1316221 - 02/18/03 09:02 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

But you have to realise that the opinions of those inside and outside of a country will be different (you obviously don't like an outsider like me calling YOUR gov't "evil.") I don't think it's right to impose your values onto another country and its culture.



even if you consider GW to be evil, (which he very well may be i admit), there is a big difference between an elected official abusing his power and a dictator slaughtering people whenever he feels like it. i don't think it's right to impose our values onto another country either, but when they represent a legitamate threat to both us and our allies in the region, there comes a time for action. And what values are we imposing on them? The fact that we think the people of iraq should be able to live without fear? it's not like we're trying to make them all christians or something.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: phreakyzen]
    #1316237 - 02/18/03 09:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If they can't take care of themselves then why the hell would we liberate them? Are they going to be able to run a country by themselves? The US fought against odds to be liberated from the crown. Do you think if somebody else did it for us we would be the super power we are today? No we would be France.




we can remove him from power much more quickly and with much less destruction to the country than the people of iraq could. (which they can't) Also, you really do need to learn some history, if we were in it alone against england, we would've been fucked. and the revolution had nothing to do with making us a superpower, WWI and WWII did that.
You are very lucky to be born in the US, do you realize that? We have many advantages over those born in most other countries, why shouldn't we help those who need us now?


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OfflineRonoS
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Registered: 01/26/01
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1316248 - 02/18/03 09:15 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are a victim of your own propaganda my friend...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Rono]
    #1316256 - 02/18/03 09:20 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Or perhaps you.. of yours.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1316261 - 02/18/03 09:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That's impossible...I'm Canadian, we don't have propaganda here... :smirk:


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlineflow
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Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1316274 - 02/18/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Already done
LOL!
You seriously telling me you can't think of a single dictatorship the US is propping up?
How many years has it been since a dictator was last "installed" in power by the US?
Try and think in terms of supporting dictators too.
Which thug dictator does the US currently prop up?
You're right. The US only supports wonderful democracies and wouldn't dream of supporting maniacs like the Northern Alliance..whoops...and they definately would NEVER support a regime based on mass torture like Turkey..whoops...etc etc etc..




there is a difference between supporting dictators and keeping stability in the region. i'll be the first to admit that the US has used the middle east to futher its own goals for a very long time. the reason that whole region hates the US so much is because we are so good at playing both sides to get what we want. If you take a close look at history, we hardly ever support a dictator without flat out using him.
Also, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL that the US will "install" a new dictator in iraq, we will "install" a democracy. Is Afghanistan worse off now than when the taliban was in control? hell no. did we just set up a dictator in Afghanistan? hell no. This isn't the nixon administration, the american people get their news from many international sources as well, so no matter how much people claim our media is controlled, the gov't cannot hide the truth of what is happening internationally from the people anymore. That being said, once we whoop saddam's ass, there will be a lot of attention on what the US does in iraq, even if we tried to set up some bs puppet dictator, the international community would not stand for it.


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Offlineflow
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Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Rono]
    #1316279 - 02/18/03 09:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You are a victim of your own propaganda my friend...



how so???


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Rono]
    #1316295 - 02/18/03 09:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That's impossible...I'm Canadian, we don't have propaganda here... 



Silly me. How could I have forgotten. :tongue:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1316732 - 02/18/03 01:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Haven't you heard? We're only allowed to butt into other's business if it means only the other country profits.


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1317570 - 02/18/03 07:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex, you said that the US should stop "installing" dictators. They have stopped doing so.

...they definately would NEVER support a regime based on mass torture like Turkey..whoops

Every NATO nation (except maybe France and Germany) supports Turkey. Every nation that trades with Turkey supports Turkey. Why single out the US?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1317600 - 02/18/03 07:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Every nation that trades with Turkey supports Turkey. Why single out the US?

So you've abandoned the ludicrous idea that the US no longer funds and supports brutal regimes. Good.

Moving onto your new point - is the US the only country that supports brutal regimes? No.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1317617 - 02/18/03 08:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Also, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL that the US will "install" a new dictator in iraq, we will "install" a democracy

Lets wait and see.

If you take a close look at history, we hardly ever support a dictator without flat out using him

Yeah, Suharto, Pinochet etc etc were paid well by the US. They slaughtered an awful lot of innocent people all the same.

did we just set up a dictator in Afghanistan? hell no

He certainly wasn't voted for by anyone. He's an ex-employee of the oil corporation Unocal. Lets wait and see. Funding, supporting and arming the Northern Alliance - who the people of afghanistan viewed as worse than the taliban the last time they had power - wasn't a wise thing in my book. Now they have power they appear to be just as brutal as ever and the Taliban are steadily regrouping. My guess is there'll be another civil war lasting many years - which will suit the americans down to the ground.

even if we tried to set up some bs puppet dictator, the international community would not stand for it.

Like they stopped the puppet and northern alliance warlords being installed in Afghanistan?



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1317643 - 02/18/03 08:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thats funny, u say without France we would still be part of England. Well without the US the French would be a larger part of what would now be called Greater Germany or Germania again. It works both ways. And uh, by the way Socialism doesnt work and never will dude. Why? Because people have will.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1317648 - 02/18/03 08:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

So you've abandoned the ludicrous idea that the US no longer funds and supports brutal regimes.

So you've abandoned the ludicrous idea that the US continues to "install" dictators. Good.

Moving onto your new point - is the US the only country that supports brutal regimes? No.

Then we can expect to see from you some criticisms of the dozens of other countries which support brutal regimes rather than an endless series of repetitive diatribes against the US exclusively? Glad to hear it.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1317653 - 02/18/03 08:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm well aware of how we saved France during WWII. By the way, socialism does work. Look at Denmark, Iceland, France, Sweden, England, Canada, Norway, or any number of other Western European countries. They all practice Socialism to some extent.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (02/18/03 08:13 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1318255 - 02/19/03 05:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So you've abandoned the ludicrous idea that the US continues to "install" dictators.

Whatever gave you this idea? Tell me when you think the US decided to change policy and stop funding savage terrorists groups like the contras, installing dictators and supporting brutal regimes. I'm interested when you think the policy change occured and why you think it changed.

btw, what was the reason the Northern Alliance fought americas ground war for them? Remember the US had already committed to ousting the Taliban so there was no reason for the Northern Alliance to do help them. Especially since allegedly "power" would be given to some puppet fronting for the oil corporations.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1318331 - 02/19/03 06:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

First off, the US didn't singlehandedly save France.

Does anyone honestly believe that attacking Iraq is going to make the US any safer? Best case scenario, the US invades Iraq, and quickly replaces Saddam. After that, the resentment towards the US in the middle east skyrockets.

I know you're thinking "but wait, we're liberating the Iraqi people from their horrible dictator!".

Well, sure, Saddam is one bad dude. He's a jackass, but Iraq is still doing better economically, and is more socially progressive than most middle eastern countries. How much do the people there really hate their leader?

Bin Laden, while not exactly a supporter of Iraq's relaxed religious laws, still recognizes that there are a good deal of muslims living there, and has made it clear that he believes attacking Iraq would be an evil act.

Taking Saddam out would not dissuade him or his followers in any way. It would just throw more fuel on the fire, and create more resentment towards the US.

Then there's North Korea, which I'd say has Iraq beat in the wacky dictatorship department. They've stated that an attack on Iraq would signify intent to attack them, and they would be prepared to hit the US with a pre-emptive nuclear strike.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1318335 - 02/19/03 06:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"when they represent a legitamate threat to both us and our allies in the region, there comes a time for action."

What evidence do we have that Iraq had any plans for war against the US? The only agression they've shown towards the US was after they were threatened by them.

Why doesn't the US disarm? It seems like they're prepared to use weapons of mass destruction as well.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 13 days
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1318467 - 02/19/03 07:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

even if we tried to set up some bs puppet dictator, the international community would not stand for it.

Like they stopped the puppet and northern alliance warlords being installed in Afghanistan?




Afghanistan is a basically worthless country. Iraq holds one of the biggest oil reserves in the world. This will bring much more attention.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1318567 - 02/19/03 07:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Well, sure, Saddam is one bad dude. He's a jackass, but Iraq is still doing better economically, and is more socially progressive than most middle eastern countries. How much do the people there really hate their leader?




ok, this to me indicates just plain ignorance. People on this site keep on saying that the people of iraq really don't want to be free from saddam, that he really isn't that bad. this is fucking stupid. the people of iraq can't speak out in their own country because they are afraid. ever since saddam came to power, he has used fear to control the iraqi people.
A former Iraqi diplomat living in exile summed up Saddam's rule in one sentence: "Saddam is a dictator who is ready to sacrifice his country, just so long as he can remain on his throne in Baghdad." Few Iraqis would disagree with this. Although none living in Iraq would dare to say so publicly. --but i'm sure you would know more about this than someone who lived in iraq wouldn't you.
Some years ago a European interviewer nervously quoted reports that the Baghdad authorities might, on occasions, have tortured and perhaps even killed opponents of the regime.
Was this true? Saddam Hussein was not offended. Rather, he seemed surprised by the naivete of the question. "Of course," he replied. "What do you expect if they oppose the regime?"
saddam does represent a huge threat to the mideast, while this does not directly threaten the US, we have many allies in the region who would like to see him out. he invaded both iran and kuwait for no reason other than he wanted to. Is a man like this not a danger to the region??
as for iraq doing better economically, where the hell does this come from? This is another statement that is absolutely absurd. Iraq is bankrupt, its economy and infrastructure shattered by years of economic sanctions imposed by the United Nations following the invasion of Kuwait. iraq should be one of the richest nations in the mideast, while the people are not poverty stricken, saddam's stupidity hurt the economy a great deal.


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