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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1318715 - 02/19/03 08:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

But this implies that the US is interested in the fate of the Iraqi people - it clearly isn't or it wouldn't have been giving Saddam billion dollar loans a year after the Halabja gassing. Are we really expected to believe the US will install anyone but another compliant, savage thug?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1319045 - 02/19/03 10:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So basically you're saying:

"There's no way we can really know how people feel in Iraq so we should assume their lives are shit."

I know that Saddam is a bad dictator. I thought I made this pretty clear. Is he so bad that it gives us the right to invade the country? Do the citizens there really have such awful lives that we should spend hundreds of billions of dollars liberating them? Why not spend that money improving the lives of citizens in some starving third world country, because the quality of life there is without a doubt worse than in Iraq.

"he invaded both iran and kuwait for no reason other than he wanted to."

The reason he invaded Iran was a) for oil, and b) to prevent the spread of the violent islamic extremists that had taken control there. So, for pretty much the same reasons that Bush wants to invade Iraq now. Saddam had the backing of most of the other middle eastern countries, as well as the Soviet Union.

It should be pointed out that Saddam thought he had the backing of the US before he invaded Kuwait. Was it the right thing to do? No, of course not. Could I come up with a list of things the US has done that are just as bad or worse? Easily.

"Saddam is a dictator who is ready to sacrifice his country, just so long as he can remain on his throne in Baghdad."
Well, Bush is prepared to sacrifice the lives of the Iraqi people so that he can get Saddam off of his throne. Why? Because the Iraqi people have it badly. I'm sure all the children of Iraq would send him thank you notes after the invasion, but it's pretty fucking hard to write with a stump.


"Few Iraqis would disagree with this. Although none living in Iraq would dare to say so publicly. --but i'm sure you would know more about this than someone who lived in iraq wouldn't you."

Thank you for defining the word "hypocrisy" for our junior members. How do you know how many Iraqis would agree with this? From what you saw on CNN? How do you know what they're thinking?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1319149 - 02/19/03 11:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Bush "liberating" Iraq is like if Bin Laden said he was coming to liberate america from George Bush. In one way you'd be pleased. Then you'd start thinking about the thousands of innocent kids dying writhing in the dust, then you think about what Bin Ladens government will look like.

Would you want liberating from George Bush by Bin Laden? That's kinda the situation the Iraqis are in.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1319155 - 02/19/03 11:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Earth to Alpo.

If Americans want liberation from Bush we'll vote him out in the next election. (we won't though)

Let's see what happens if the Iraqis try to vote out Saddam.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1319227 - 02/19/03 12:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

that is so fucking stupid im not going to respond to it.


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1319290 - 02/19/03 12:33 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So basically you're saying:

"There's no way we can really know how people feel in Iraq so we should assume their lives are shit."




No, im saying that the people inside iraq cannot tell us how they feel, so the best idea of the situation in iraq today comes from iraqi's who have fled the country, and yes all of them would say their lives were shit.
Quote:

Do the citizens there really have such awful lives that we should spend hundreds of billions of dollars liberating them? Why not spend that money improving the lives of citizens in some starving third world country, because the quality of life there is without a doubt worse than in Iraq.




yes, and it won't cost hundreds of billions. which is more important security, or material goods? i'm not saying that iraq is worse than every third world country, but fighting hunger, disease, etc.. is completely different than fighting an army. The two aren't related at all.
Quote:

It should be pointed out that Saddam thought he had the backing of the US before he invaded Kuwait. Was it the right thing to do? No, of course not. Could I come up with a list of things the US has done that are just as bad or worse? Easily.




when was the last time the US tried to invade a country without either us or our allies being provoked?
Quote:

"Saddam is a dictator who is ready to sacrifice his country, just so long as he can remain on his throne in Baghdad."
Well, Bush is prepared to sacrifice the lives of the Iraqi people so that he can get Saddam off of his throne. Why? Because the Iraqi people have it badly. I'm sure all the children of Iraq would send him thank you notes after the invasion, but it's pretty fucking hard to write with a stump.




you misinterpreted the quote, and then used stupid bs logic to try and make a point that wasn't there to begin with. The guy is saying that saddam would basically hold his people hostage to stay in power, and sacrifice their lives without a second thought. In other words, he would purposely kill people to stay in power. Would bush kill people on purpose? Civilian casualities are going to happen in any war, it's unavoidable, but the US military can (and does) do more to avoid civilian casualities than any other force. Do you think more civilians would die in a revolution, or if we invaded? the answer is obvious. So how is Bush sacrificing the iraqi people? he's actually saving a lot more if you look at the big picture, but of course bush is an evil bastard who only wants to kill innocent children.
Quote:

"Few Iraqis would disagree with this. Although none living in Iraq would dare to say so publicly. --but i'm sure you would know more about this than someone who lived in iraq wouldn't you."
Thank you for defining the word "hypocrisy" for our junior members. How do you know how many Iraqis would agree with this? From what you saw on CNN? How do you know what they're thinking?



ok, you know what, i'll admit it, i can't read the minds of the iraqi people, but it's common sense dumbass. when EVERY(ok, so i haven't met all of them either) person who has managed to escape the country says the same thing, it only makes sense that that is how the people of the country feel. I guess i'll just have to wait until we liberate the people to prove you wrong. But what makes you think i'm wrong?? Give me one little shred of evidence that shows that the vast majority of the iraqi people don't want saddam out.


Edited by flow (02/19/03 12:37 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1319373 - 02/19/03 01:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No, im saying that the people inside iraq cannot tell us how they feel, so the best idea of the situation in iraq today comes from iraqi's who have fled the country, and yes all of them would say their lives were shit.



That's not quite fair either, since if they fled the country they must have a reason. There are many who choose to stay in that country who might have a better outlook on it. It's like assuming that because most Cubans here in America hate Castro that most Cubans still living in Cuba hate him, which isn't true.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (02/19/03 01:15 PM)


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OfflineMushyMay
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Registered: 02/19/02
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1319512 - 02/19/03 02:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

it won't cost hundreds of billions.


Larry Lindsey, President Bush's former economic advisor, lowballed an estimate of $200 billion.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1320149 - 02/19/03 06:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"No, im saying that the people inside iraq cannot tell us how they feel, so the best idea of the situation in iraq today comes from iraqi's who have fled the country, and yes all of them would say their lives were shit."

The ones that have fled are the ones that are being persecuted, and yes, even tortured. Are the majority of the citizens of Iraq at risk of being imprisoned or tortured? I don't know, and neither do you.

"yes, and it won't cost hundreds of billions. which is more important security, or material goods? i'm not saying that iraq is worse than every third world country, but fighting hunger, disease, etc.. is completely different than fighting an army. The two aren't related at all."

They are two different things, yes, but how often do you hear about the US planning on sending that much money in aid to a country? If they aren't willing to do that, then why are they willing to spend that much to save the citizens of Iraq?

"which is more important security, or material goods"

Food and medical aid = security. The average person in Iraq is probably safer, and better off than the average person in Somalia.

"Would bush kill people on purpose?"

Do you KNOW what a war is? They don't use the guns and bombs to scare people.

"the US military can (and does) do more to avoid civilian casualities than any other force"

They do? What's this based on?

"Give me one little shred of evidence that shows that the vast majority of the iraqi people don't want saddam out. "

Give me one shred of evidence that shows they do. Even if they do, can you come up with one little shred of evidence that shows they want him to be taken out violently? By a foreign nation?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleChe_Night_Soil
Koinoniphobic

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 1,533
Loc: Commonslaughtia
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1320245 - 02/19/03 06:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

(direction of reply to the last poster=laziness)

I have three questions for those more informed than myself:
Is the plan still to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure/government with money from the sale of Iraqi oil?
How will the war (forgone) affect our economy in the long and short?
Who had control of Iraq before Saddam?
Thanks.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1320368 - 02/19/03 07:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

im not going to respond to it.

Spoken like a true believer in George Bush.


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1320906 - 02/20/03 04:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Tell me when you think the US decided to change policy and stop funding savage terrorists groups like the contras, installing dictators and supporting brutal regimes.

Name the last dictator you believe was "installed" by the US, and the year in which he was "installed".

what was the reason the Northern Alliance fought americas ground war for them?

It wasn't America's ground war, it was their ground war. They had been trying to oust the Taliban for years, and would have continued trying whether the US was there to assist them or not. Surely you remember their whining and moaning that the US was not doing enough to assist them, that the US was bombing the wrong places?

pinky


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1320995 - 02/20/03 05:17 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The UN has calculated the number of Iraqi dead caused by the 90's Gulf War + Sanctions as 1.5 Megadeath. Just what's that?

100.000 dead
200.000 dead
300.000 dead
400.000 dead
500.000 dead

600.000 dead
700.000 dead
800.000 dead
900.000 dead
1.000.000 dead

1.100.000 dead
1.200.000 dead
1.300.000 dead
1.400.000 dead
1.500.000 dead


Now that's alot of typing, even when counting the dead at a major necropolis at a time. The UN calls a hole with 100 corpses a big "mass grave". Well: the Gulf War & aftermath has killed enough Iraqi people to fill 15.000 of those.

In armor-piercing ammunition etc. the US has DUMPED 300 metric tons of DEPLETED URANIUM in the desert. Now every atom of those is basically radioactive, so one might argue the US has dumped 300.000 kilograms of nuclear waste in the mideastern region. A so-called "dirty bomb" of mass destruction? Nooo, just ammunition!
It's just these munitions may not be used for practice on US and European soils for some mysterious reason...

I have seen a field, larger than a football field, full of bigass storage tanks of VX nerve gas precursor. Was this on Iraqi soil? No: it was on the Discovery channel, footage shot in the good ole USA.
"It's all destroyed now". Sure! When you've bought a gun you can throw out the slingshot, can't you?

The "Daisycutter" bomb contains about 20.000lbs of high explosive. It can take out a couple of city blocks and has been used multiple times in Afganisthan. Several 1.000 refugees have died from it. A weapon of mass destruction? don't be silly!

Read somewhere the option of pre-emptive strike using nuclear weapons was studied.. By the good ole US Gov't.
Pre-emptive...
Nuclear weapons...
Had to think about that for some time...


Well, lotsa ominous stuff, 1.500.000 Iraqis dead and Mr. Saddam doesn't even have roids or anything! Still in power, not planning on leaving soon.
He's a total bastard, don't get me wrong, but he sounded alot smarter than Bush in that uncut interview us Europeans got to see on TV.
A mass-murderer, yes. Dictator? Absolutely!
But intellectually superior to the one with his finger on the nuclear trigger.


And now the scary part.The r???lly scary stuff. The US are gonna attack. Surgical strike, carpet bombing, all out nuclear assault... Whatever.
Saddam has SMALLPOX.
One guy gets it, the WORLD gets it. There's the regular kind that kills like one in eight, and the "black" kind that kills most, if not all infected.
More contagious than the flu, deadlier than warfare.
In Europe Smallpox caused the population to stay at a low level despite high birth rates. The Native Americans.. Ever heard about them?

Now a sane guy will not wield such a weapon. I sure think even Saddam won't.
But what if some general thinks it's a selective killer of Non-Believers?
What if Bush bombs the WRONG building & the germ escapes? What if a couple of tubes of it are in major US cities already? We all know grass & coke are smuggled by the boatload... Sure some cigarette-sized test tubes didn't get in? And then what? Retaliatory nuclear strike? Mutually Assured Destruction?

Both nations have got the world by the balls, same-old same-old of the Cold War.
Just one difference:
Bush is gonna ATTACK.
This war WILL be fought.
One can only pray.




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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1321038 - 02/20/03 05:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Name the last dictator you believe was "installed" by the US, and the year in which he was "installed".

Karzai. 5 months ago. Along with the Northern Alliance warlords who now effectively run large swathes of Afghanistan.

Let me get this straight. Do you believe the US has ever helped a dictator to power? Do you believe they have ever supported corrupt regimes? Suharto, Pinochet, Mbuto, Saddam, contras etc etc. Which president do you feel changed the policy towards supporting maniacal dictators and savage terrorist groups?

It wasn't America's ground war, it was their ground war.

America had already committed to ousting the Taliban. There was no need whatsoever for the Northern Alliance to lift a finger. Why did they? What was given and promised them by the americans?

They had been trying to oust the Taliban for years, and would have continued trying whether the US was there to assist them or not.

They were fighting to achieve power themselves, big difference to fighting so someone else could be installed in power. You are insisting they fought so power could be handed over to the puppet oil representative. Why would they be so magnaminous for no reward?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1321138 - 02/20/03 06:39 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Karzai. 5 months ago. Along with the Northern Alliance warlords who now effectively run large swathes of Afghanistan.

Karzai was not installed by the US. He was selected by Afghanis in a process supervised by international observers from many countries to head a provisional government until such time as national elections are organized. As for the Northern Alliance warlords, they were neither selected nor installed by the US -- they have been struggling to carve out their own little empires since the Soviet troops pulled out of Afghanistan.

Do you believe the US has ever helped a dictator to power?

Yes. However, you had suggested that it would be a good idea for the US to stop "installing" dictators. I merely pointed out that they have stopped.

Suharto, Pinochet, Mbuto, Saddam, contras etc etc.

Again, I must ask what is this persistent difficulty you seem to have distinguishing between present tense and past tense? You wanted them to stop. They have stopped. Do you have anyone in mind who was "installed" by the US in the last decade or two?

America had already committed to ousting the Taliban. There was no need whatsoever for the Northern Alliance to lift a finger. Why did they?

Because that was their struggle; the sole reason for existence, for many of them. Not only that, but they felt that the American forces were going about it the wrong way, wasting their efforts on suspected Al-Qaeda strongholds rather than heading straight for Kabul.

They were fighting to achieve power themselves...

Agreed. What's your point?

You are insisting they fought so power could be handed over to the puppet oil representative.

I insist no such thing. I said they wanted to oust the Taliban. They did. I have no doubt that many of them will now want to oust Karzai. So what?

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1321141 - 02/20/03 06:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

im not going to respond to it.

Spoken like a true believer in George Bush.



No, spoken like someone who has finally realized just how ignorant you are, and is unwilling to waste any more time trying to convince a blind man the sky is blue.


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InvisibleChe_Night_Soil
Koinoniphobic

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 1,533
Loc: Commonslaughtia
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Che_Night_Soil]
    #1321357 - 02/20/03 08:01 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Did my questions suck?


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die(mind,soul);
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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1321502 - 02/20/03 09:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Karzai was not installed by the US

Ok, it was just coincidence he's an Unocal man.

He was selected by Afghanis

What Afghani's exactly? Certainly not the people of Afghanistan.

international observers from many countries

How much power do you think the US had in choosing Karzai and how much power did the "international observers" have? A rough guess will do.

Was it likely a communist would have been installed for example?

provisional government until such time as national elections are organized

Lets not hold our breath eh?

Do you have anyone in mind who was "installed" by the US in the last decade or two?

This is some wierd argument you're trying to float pink. Do dictators installed by the US and kept in power for the last 30 years count? Off the top of my head installed in the last decade or two there's been General Rabuka, Rios Mont, Cerezo, Fujimori in Peru, returning the kuwait regime to power 1991, the attempts at destabilisation in Bulgaria and Albania. Throw in all the groups they're funding and arming throughout the world who are jockeying for power. Doesn't suggest to me that there's been a massive change in policy. Perhaps you can correct me?

Can you give me some evidence showing when the US government changed policy?

As for the Northern Alliance warlords, they were neither selected nor installed by the US

So you keep saying. So why did they do the americans ground fighting for them? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Do warlords usually fight for free? Or would they have said "We want money, arms and power or do your own fighting". The americans will have assisted them with weaponry and no doubt said "Keep a low profile for a while so all the silly bastards at home think Karzai is in charge and work on building your power base throughout the country. We'll support you. Please do our ground fighting for us or americans will see body bags coming home".

I merely pointed out that they have stopped.

Fine. Lets accept your premise. Could you tell me when they stopped exactly? Which president did this? Why? Bush was funding and arming Saddam as recently as 1989. You've a choice of either Clinton or Dubya. Which one was it?

Agreed. What's your point?

Read it again. Fighting for power THEMSELVES. Why fight for someone else to have power?

I said they wanted to oust the Taliban.

For the third time, the americans were committed to this with or without the Northern Alliance warlords. The taliban would have been ousted anyway. Why did the warlords fight and die for the americans? Out of their love for George Bush?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Anonymous]
    #1321531 - 02/20/03 09:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No

Thanks for confirming I'm doing something right. The day i fear is when someone like you agrees with me.



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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 7 years, 13 days
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1321542 - 02/20/03 09:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That's not quite fair either, since if they fled the country they must have a reason. There are many who choose to stay in that country who might have a better outlook on it. It's like assuming that because most Cubans here in America hate Castro that most Cubans still living in Cuba hate him, which isn't true.



i did not say that it was a PERFECT way of determining how the iraqi people feel, only that it is the BEST way.
Is there a better way?


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