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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: ]
    #2268006 - 01/24/04 12:54 PM (18 years, 4 days ago)

Well it's partly that, and partly that 687 states that the ceasefire comes into effect if Iraq "accepts the terms" not if Iraq "fullfills the terms". There's a big difference.

I read the Professor of Law at Oxford University explaining this a while ago, I found it surprising too.


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Anonymous

Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2268020 - 01/24/04 01:02 PM (18 years, 4 days ago)

the ceasefire comes into effect if Iraq "accepts the terms" not if Iraq "fullfills the terms". There's a big difference.

that part does sound a little far out to me. i'd like to hear that explained.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2268236 - 01/24/04 02:45 PM (18 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
exactly what cease-fire terms did the iraqis violate?? no banned weapons have been found in iraq.. nor is there any other evidence that such a violation occurred...paul o'neill has confirmed that the war was all about oil...one could argue that there are no such things as "rights" as far as oil in the middle east is concerned.. but thats beside the point...get the facts straight first.. and pls spare us all the self-righteous neocon braggadocio (nytimes)...




How about shooting at British and American planes in the no-fly zones. If that isn't a direct violation and a flagrant defiance of the UN I don't know what is. Not to mention that they couldn't have made a clearer invitation to a fight. Paul O'Neil has confirmed. whatever. And lets talk about oil. Everything was great before Henry Ford and the automobile wasn't it. no-one in the middle east was upset when America made it possible for everyone to own a car. Hell they were sitting on top of a fortune. The very thing they hate about us created a market that made them wealthier beyond their wildest dreams. At least the rulers who decided not to allow that prosperity to flow out to the peoples of their countries got rich. Anyway as America continued to innovate and create a bigger oil market they sat and enjoyed the benefits while thinking of all the power they would have as the world continued to increase it's reliance on oil. Our freedom to innovate made them rich and powerful on the world stage and they didn't cry about it then did they. Do you think they would be willing to give all that money up if they could be free of the politics that comes with the oil? Just outright sell the rights to all the oil to someone and be done with it? I doubt it. On one edge of the sword they have enjoyed the benefits that have come from Americas innovations and have greedily wrong their hands in anticipation as we grow more needful of oil. On the other edge is the fact that America is not going to take a nose dive because the oil rich countries want to yank the big dogs chain. In the end they though that the power was with those that sit on the resources, but the truth is that the power resides with those who have they means and will to provide for the needs of its people. As things are now we need oil or we will all be living in grass huts scavenging for a meal. The truth is that they failed to see what the future held and instead of investing in the education and progress of their people they chose to line their own pockets and repress their people. The leaders of those countries are and have failed in their duties as leaders of their people and it is not our fault. they squandered and incredible opportunity and it is blood upon their hands.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2274999 - 01/26/04 04:57 PM (18 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
I don't think that their is as much chance for corruption in American gov't as their is in other govt's around the world. 




Im curious as to why you would think that.  There is the greatest chance of corruption in a country like america because it has the most power....have you never taken history?!

At least you admit the possiblility :smirk:

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said: funnel billions of dollars into another war that is actually, most likely, going to be beneficial to America.




and you even list a cause! your getting better.  Now can you not relate the issue in iraq as a distraction to limit rights at home?  You can't see how such a limited society could be exploited to support more war? how it already is?!  im sorry, but it seems logical to me, if only using history as an example.  How will it be different this time? let me guess, 'because america has the morality to use wmd.' :shake:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2276032 - 01/26/04 11:51 PM (18 years, 1 day ago)

America is not going to take a nose dive because the oil rich countries want to yank the big dogs chain. In the end they though that the power was with those that sit on the resources, but the truth is that the power resides with those who have they means and will to provide for the needs of its people.

i actually posted a thread on this topic a while back...and i agree that we cannot let our own ppl die..and let the rich oil sheikhs have it their way..merely to avoid a war...but if that is the case..then the neocons should at least tell us the truth..and not make up lame excuses...but personally..i still believe that even if it is so..there are other solutions to our energy problems besides aggressive warfare...

in this case..however..the neocons are not forcibly stealing iraq's oil to "provide for the needs of their people"..but rather they intend to steal the role of the oil sheikhs as well:

instead of investing in the education and progress of their people they chose to line their own pockets and repress their people

exactly what the neocons are doing here...


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2284656 - 01/29/04 06:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that they should tell the truth but I don't think oil was the ONLY reason. And I think that other energy technologies are on the edge of bearing fuit, but in the mean time...

At least our neocons are smart enough to reinvest in order to make a sustainable system. Those others thought they could exist forever in their sand bunkers while getting rich off the worlds oil need while neglecting their peoples needs. Dumbasses. I'll chalk it up to Darwin.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2285312 - 01/29/04 10:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

you will sound like less of a hippocryte(sp)..if you dont criticise the oil sheikhs for having the exact same goal as the US neoconpoops..that being to enrich themselves while keeping their populations repressed and neglected..while at the same time patting the latter on the back for doing a better job at it...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2288008 - 01/30/04 09:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Your comparing the US with Arab countries in the department of repression of it's people? You seem to think that if the US is not perfect in your eyes that it is no better than (if not worse than) countries that repress women and don't educate their people. You say both sides are equal because they have the same goal and that is true to a certain level. There always has been and will be people that work to control others and the treasure. That is the nature of things since people and animals started living in groups. Their system is closed and if you don't have the right bloodline or lack of morals you will never have a chance. The American "neocons" at least realize that they can increase their treasure by allowing the people to flourish. The American system may not be wide open and it may take a lot of work and ass kissing but anyone with the will can become wealthy. Here I know that if I educate myself and apply myself and don't succumb to the temptation to consume, I can build wealth and enjoy a few years of retirement. I'm not guaranteed that but I have hope. Hope. Hope. I have a lifetime more hope that the average Joe in any Arab country. All neocons being equal I know what side I'm on. If you are waiting and wishing for a time when there is none who aspires to control then you have an eternity of waiting and wishing ahead of you. Civilization, waterways, sewage systems, and communities are not built on chaos and anarchy, where ever there is civilization there will be someone in control.It is easy ,safe, and gutless to play the role of pacifist when you are not in the first few places in the pecking order as so many European nations did. When you are first you find yourself having to make the unpopular decisions. But any other country would jump at the chance to make those unpopular decisions if they had the chance because they pretty much all desire to have that control. America will eventually fall as all empires do, and the world will again see dark ages. So I guess you can rejoice in that. True freedom in a general sense no longer exists on Earth and wont again until civilization crumbles or Humans escape the confines of this planet. I am hoping for the latter because I believe that that is where the future lies. I don't mean for this to sound like a sci-fi movie but It is difficult to articulate my beliefs without relating to my fundamental belief about where the future of humanity lies. It lies forward not back. The US attempts to move forward while dictator regimes seem to try moving back or at least to not move at all.

If we are forced to choose between the lesser of necessary evils we need to first agree on what is lesser evil. If you think that Saddams Iraq is a lesser evil than the US I have to think you need your head examined.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2288806 - 01/31/04 03:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The American "neocons" at least realize that they can increase their treasure by allowing the people to flourish.

Did propping up the savage, nightmarish warlords in Afghanistan let people "flourish"?

Did supporting the nightmarish contra terrorists lets the people "flourish".

Did supporting Suharto in his genocide of East Timor let the East Timorese "flourish"?

(This list could go on for pages btw)


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2289837 - 01/31/04 04:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Did propping up the savage, nightmarish warlords in Afghanistan let people "flourish"?

Did supporting the nightmarish contra terrorists lets the people "flourish".

Did supporting Suharto in his genocide of East Timor let the East Timorese "flourish"?

(This list could go on for pages btw)




So sorry, thats the way the world works, tho. Maybe we shouldn't have supported the Brits in their assault on Nazi Germany, hm?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2289839 - 01/31/04 04:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No supporting the brits against the nazi's was ok, supporting the contras wasn't, supporting Saddam at the height of his mass killing wasn't. It's not that hard to figure out.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2289847 - 01/31/04 04:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
No supporting the brits against the nazi's was ok, supporting the contras wasn't, supporting Saddam at the height of his mass killing wasn't. It's not that hard to figure out.




I don't really think that we supported Saddam at the height of his mass killing. Even if we did, you are using the term "we" very loosely. George Washington Bush did NOT participate in that. I did not participate in that. If past administrations made mistakes, then thats just the way it is, we'll correct them now.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2289860 - 01/31/04 04:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah you did - during the 80's when the mass killing was at it's height Reagan and Bush were so close to Saddam it was dubbed "the love affair".

btw if GW Bush and the boys are cute and cuddly and want to make amends for past mistakes why support the Northern Alliance? Or the dictators in Uzbekistan who specialise in boiling people alive?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2298112 - 02/03/04 06:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Yeah you did - during the 80's when the mass killing was at it's height Reagan and Bush were so close to Saddam it was dubbed "the love affair".

btw if GW Bush and the boys are cute and cuddly and want to make amends for past mistakes why support the Northern Alliance? Or the dictators in Uzbekistan who specialise in boiling people alive?




Let me guess, oil? did I get it right? oil money?


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2300709 - 02/04/04 02:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
The American "neocons" at least realize that they can increase their treasure by allowing the people to flourish.

Did propping up the savage, nightmarish warlords in Afghanistan let people "flourish"?

Did supporting the nightmarish contra terrorists lets the people "flourish".

Did supporting Suharto in his genocide of East Timor let the East Timorese "flourish"?

(This list could go on for pages btw)




I should have said their people as in American citizens. It is up to the leaders of those other contries to create the environment for it's people.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2301106 - 02/04/04 04:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Sure they try but it sure is difficult with the US funding, arming and training terrorists/manical dictators to try and take over their country.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2305987 - 02/05/04 06:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Yeah you did - during the 80's when the mass killing was at it's height Reagan and Bush were so close to Saddam it was dubbed "the love affair".




I'd like you to prove your assertation that "I" supported this.


Also, it seems that you are claming that Iraq is allowed to enter into a cease-fire agreement, accept the terms, but not abide by them? Is this what you are saying?

If so, thanks for giving me yet another reason to show that the war was justified. If they can do it, we can to. So, they entered an agreement (the cease-fire agreement) where they accepted the terms, but did not abide by them. I think that right should apply to both parties, so we can enter the agreement, accept the terms, but not abide by them. Thus, we can continue to attack them. surely you'll support this, since it uses your "logic", right? somehow, I doubt it, but it's still fun to show you how you aren't able to think conceptually (or in the abstract)


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: US running scared of Iraq elections [Re: Xlea321]
    #2306253 - 02/05/04 08:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't pretend to know why some decisions are made and undoubtedly some are made for unrighteous reasons and some are just bad decisions. But international politics is a game of real world chess, and as any chess player knows, sometime you sacrifice a pawn in order to win the game. Average Joe in everyday life must learn to do the same to succeed. Show me someone who gets everything they want and I'll show you someone who wants only what he can have. I'm not condoning any of the things you mentioned. I don't know in what context those decisions were made. I imagine that they were self-serving or just plain wrong decisions but taken of of context they mean little . To make any sound judgment on those I would need a snapshot of the state of affairs at the time. what the relationships between us and the other gov, rebels. Their relationships with other govs, our relationship with those other govs. Pressures exerted by other govs not directly related. A history of the relationships leading up to the event. Goals of the administration at the time. Judgments should be made from the same context as the event being judged. Hindsight is 20/20. It is nothing new for any country with the means, to try and replace a leader they see as threatening with on that is weaker and is seen as being easier to control.

Also, care must be excercised when using the term "terrorist" as anyone who holds a opposing view than the political power does andalso has the means to affect change could be labled a terrorist. I'm sure Franklin and Jefferson would have been considered terrorists by the British.


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