Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: cez] * 1
    #17775569 -

No, they are not.
An argument must consist of something to compel the individual to accept your position as readily evident, be it empirical evidence or any number of informal fallacies which attempt to substantiate your position.

A statement and an argument are two separate things. One may consist of the other, but there is a distinct difference and saying they are one and the same is incorrect.


--------------------
A Hella Heady List of My Favorite Shroomy People - Click Here!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: something super extreme]
    #17775579 -

Every statement is an argument. 
It just depends on who sees it.

You just argued my statement.
((I'm not trying to troll although this post seems to be drifting that way))

Perhaps it has something to do with subjective delusion?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: cez] * 1
    #17775591 -

No, it has to do with you not understanding the fundaments of a proper argument in the context of debate.


--------------------
A Hella Heady List of My Favorite Shroomy People - Click Here!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: something super extreme]
    #17775601 -

Please tell me, what is protocol for a "proper" argument in the context of debate?

Edited by cez (02/10/13 02:57 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: cez] * 1
    #17775633 -

I literally just posted a vague, but entirely acceptable definition of an argument versus a statement.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a troll and try to break this down a little more.
An argument consists of any number of the following: persuasive statements, mathematical proofs, informal fallacies, obsrvations, hypothesis, etc. The entire premise of an argument is to persuade us via deductive or inductive reasoning of the evident nature of whatever conclusion you propose in your argument.

There is a more formal definition of a proper argument, but I'm really too lazy to bother typing it all up on a phone when it's overwhelmingly likely I'd be wasting the energy.


--------------------
A Hella Heady List of My Favorite Shroomy People - Click Here!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: something super extreme] * 1
    #17775666 -

Every statement is persuasion though, unless it's uniformly identified as truth.

I can say, "the sky is yellow."

Simple statement...Didn't mean to create an argument...But an argument would probably occur because most people think the sky is never yellow.
For whatever reason I may truly believe the sky is yellow.  (Maybe the color blue was taught as the word yellow to me as a child)
The argument will continue until we get down to the truth as to why our views are different.

According to your definition...My statement is improper for argument, but it still can create one...So I guess I just don't know the point of what your trying to say..

An argument is an argument, proper or improper-The point is there's two opposing viewpoints.

Edited by cez (02/10/13 03:28 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: cez]
    #17776376 -

Quote:
Paul McCartney Said:
Living is ea-sy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you s-e-e


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: cez] * 2
    #17776920 -

"The sky is yellow" is a statement not an argument, just saying something without backing it up by breaking down the whys and hows does not constitute an argument.

This is precisely why I asked for an argument, the subjective delusion rests typically rests on statements. Most of the people I've had this discussion with cannot break down why they believe the world to be subjective, they just heard it from someone else and are repeating the idea.

One thing you should be able to do in a debate is to not only break down your argument into various statements supported by evidence or circumstancial correlations and leading into a premise, but to break down each opposing argument.

Can someone supporting subjectivity break down their argument and outline how it relates/counters to my own argument in the OP? Throwing out statements without understanding the topic is no different than working on an equation without looking at it

On paper
(x)y=32  if y=8
Without reading the equation, the individual writes 36 and proceeds to justify their answer by knocking down algebra instead of evaluating the factors and understanding the equation.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17778379 -

you are assuming that the mind is not powerful enough to conjure something that strongly mirrors an objective reality.

i for one live by a wager of sorts: i will live life and make my mark on what seems like an objective world, but at the same time i am open to the idea that with my dead comes the end of everything i have perceived whilst living.


--------------------
Check out my art! If you are under the entheogenic mindset then looking at art is always a plus!
http://myheartisyoung.tumblr.com/tagged/creations

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17779001 -

frankly i dont really see how the op was an argument :ohwell:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: quinn]
    #17779043 -

The op strongly contradicted himself, the example of the woman who appears to have 4 arms, clearly explains how the limited perspective of man can neither perceive the world to be objective, subjective, nor any other thing, truth is in fact, by its nature, beyond the limits of our perspective.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: quinn]
    #17779073 -

yeh and he said stuff like if something is in a box and people say things are in the box, once we take the thing out of the box we can say some were more right than others...

but i mean, before you take it out it's kinda up in the air... and what if what was actually in the box was the outside of the universe?.. then we were all in the box :eek:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: quinn]
    #17779211 -

*Imitates op by giving a contradictory argument then explaining what it looks like to do so*


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17780261 -

Repertoire89 said:
On paper
(x)y=32  if y=8
Without reading the equation, the individual writes 36 and proceeds to justify their answer by knocking down algebra instead of evaluating the factors and understanding the equation.



Good job guys

:brilliant:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17780322 -

:lolwut:

why would they write 36?

and that's cool if you have some algebraic understanding of the universe. you should write a thesis on it or something


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17780468 -

So far no ones come forward with an argument, years from now someone will stumble upon this thread and post up an argument but until then Nee!

Nee!!!!!!!!! Nee!!!!!!!!!!! Nee!!!!!!!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17780587 -

lol i still dont really see what your argument was


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17780596 -

Repertoire89 said:
"The sky is yellow" is a statement not an argument, just saying something without backing it up by breaking down the whys and hows does not constitute an argument.

This is precisely why I asked for an argument, the subjective delusion rests typically rests on statements. Most of the people I've had this discussion with cannot break down why they believe the world to be subjective, they just heard it from someone else and are repeating the idea.

One thing you should be able to do in a debate is to not only break down your argument into various statements supported by evidence or circumstancial correlations and leading into a premise, but to break down each opposing argument.

Can someone supporting subjectivity break down their argument and outline how it relates/counters to my own argument in the OP? Throwing out statements without understanding the topic is no different than working on an equation without looking at it

On paper
(x)y=32  if y=8
Without reading the equation, the individual writes 36 and proceeds to justify their answer by knocking down algebra instead of evaluating the factors and understanding the equation.




Definition of persuasion per Merriam-Webster: An opinion held with complete assurance.

If someone says "the sky is yellow" that is a statement, but also a piece of persuasion.
If somebody doesn't know anything about color definition, they are going to believe this statement. 
-They've been persuaded to believe this opinion/statement.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #17784017 -

When I die, the universe will remain and continue its course.

you don't know that. none of us do.

All the various opinions in life do not prove subjectivity, they prove objectivity. If 5 people take a guess at the identity of an object in a box none can see, their differing answers does not mean they're all right - it means any answer differing from the correct answer is wrong. No matter your opinions, reality persists.


i agree with this, but if you alter the experiment only slightly you will get many different results that are dependent on a persons subjective reality. for example, if you not only ask what is in the box, but ask people to describe what is in the box. it's features etc. you will get many different answers.

Another example: you have two mushrooms - a shittake and a cube, taking the shittake thinking it to be the cube will not produce a trip.



modern psychology has proved this to be wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo also, i have witnessed someone get drunk from drinking soft drink because he thought it had vodka in it. i have also seen someone get stoned on tobacco.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Subjective delusion [Re: blingbling]
    #17785212 -

blingbling said:
modern psychology has proved this to be wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo also, i have witnessed someone get drunk from drinking soft drink because he thought it had vodka in it. i have also seen someone get stoned on tobacco.


You witnessed people acting high and drunk, so have I. The effects of mushrooms will not be replicated through a placebo effect, otherwise I wouldn't have found out I bought bunk acid ~ after taking them. Placebo effect only goes so far




blingbling said:
i agree with this, but if you alter the experiment only slightly you will get many different results that are dependent on a persons subjective reality. for example, if you not only ask what is in the box, but ask people to describe what is in the box. it's features etc. you will get many different answers.



Its true that you can get different results by changing the concept, but the central point is whats important.




blingbling said:
When I die, the universe will remain and continue its course.

you don't know that. none of us do.



I would be so bold to say that I do know that, not as a belief but as a fact. Having witnessed death and come close to death, there is no doubt in my mind as there is no doubt in anyone elses mind that we do in fact die and the universe continues without us after that death. Lets not talk falsely



I like your post  :thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The approaching revolution in particle physics distortopia 1,379 16 09/14/05 04:55 PM
by IgnatiusJReilly
* Happiness Delusion? Depression Sane?
( 1 2 all )		 DoctorJ 3,331 23 11/15/03 04:18 AM
by jiva
* Subjectiveness ska8ball 1,406 8 04/03/03 05:07 PM
by shaggy101
* the god delusion
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 KingOftheThing 9,001 107 10/24/06 07:19 PM
by cloudtop
* Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )		 Sclorch 10,479 86 04/29/03 06:04 AM
by Shroomism
* When does a belief become a delusion?
( 1 2 all )		 MOTH 3,911 29 09/15/04 07:21 AM
by redgreenvines
* The time, a subjective thing? RiffSki 552 16 11/27/04 10:19 AM
by fireworks_god
* Delusions of grandeur - a tricky trap. *DELETED*
( 1 2 all )		 dorkus 2,469 22 06/06/06 06:37 PM
by DoctorJ

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,864 topic views. 0 members, 7 guests and 28 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 18 queries.