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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17514752 -

morrowasted said:
I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but... self defense doesn't require AR15s.




the police dont need m-16's, the secret service doesnt need the P90 but why do they have them? it does not matter to me what your opinion is of what I need for self defense because it is not you that may come face to face with a cougar or a fucking bear

I need an ar-15 for self defense
I need an ar-15 for sport shooting
I need an ar-15 for what ever purpose I choose


why does the president's motorcade need this?





more importantly, why is the AR-15 the target of this claim when clearly
there's more than one use for the fucking rifle





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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #17514754 -

r00tuuu123 said:
morrowasted said:
  I don't know that much about guns


________


Why don't you stop avoiding my questions? Why do you have to resort to ad hominems? Is it because you don't have legitimate arguments?

I am a person without a particular stance on this issue who wants to understand it so I can make an informed opinion. So far you're making people who share your opinion look pretty unreasonable.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17514765 -

morrowasted said:
I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but... self defense doesn't require AR15s. I don't see any issue with people having hunting rifles or pistols or even shotguns, but why does a citizen need a gun that gives them the potential to easily kill dozens of people in a matter of minutes? I can't imagine scenario where someone needs that kind of firepower for personal defense.


Under the proposed ban, I'd have to pay $200 bucks to register my shotgun because it has a pistol grip

Also, an AR shoots a small round on purpose, to wound. I'd much rather face an idiot with an AR than a hunter with a 30/06

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #17514769 -

morrowasted said:
In any case, I'm not talking about taking away peoples' right to weaponry. Amendment two doesn't say "the citizens are guaranteed the right to have high powered semiautomatic assault rifles". A law could say that without violating the second amendment.



yes in fact it does say exactly that and the supreme court agreed


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17514774 -

morrowasted said:
I am a person without a particular stance on this issue who wants to understand it so I can make an informed opinion. So far you're making people who share your opinion look pretty unreasonable.



bullshit, you've made clear your stance, you want a ban on scary guns because
they could kill people... the problem is, they dont kill without someone who
has the intent to kill using them in such a manner


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17514777 -

Quote:
it does not matter to me what your opinion is of what I need for self defense because it is not you that may come face to face with a cougar or a fucking bear

Are you saying you're a coward? How often do you fight bears? Could you not kill one with a shotgun? These are serious questions by the way

I just don't really see what you're so angry about. People are scared because there seem to be a lot of mass shootings lately, and they seem to involve a certain kind of weapon. I think it is legitimate to ask whether or not the citizenry should have legal access to those weapons, and the arguments being given thus far don't convince me either way.

The fact that people use a certain kind of gun for sport shooting doesn't mean they "need" to have those guns. People in the UK seem to get along just fine without "needing" to sport shoot with exactly the kind of gun they want to sport shoot with.

Should a citizen be allowed to buy a nuclear weapon? What if he wants to make a sport out of it?

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17514785 -

Quote:
bullshit, you've made clear your stance, you want a ban on scary guns because
they could kill people... the problem is, they dont kill without someone who
has the intent to kill using them in such a manner

Why are you so angry? Where did I make my stance clear? You seem to be making reactionary assumptions. I respect your analytical abilities, but thus far none of the arguments given by either side of this debate have been sufficient to convince me of anything. I am presenting one line of questioning that seems to have been overlooked in this thread, not because I'm trying to socratically demonstrate my position, but because I legitimately want to know the answers.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17514791 -

Prisoner#1 said:
morrowasted said:
In any case, I'm not talking about taking away peoples' right to weaponry. Amendment two doesn't say "the citizens are guaranteed the right to have high powered semiautomatic assault rifles". A law could say that without violating the second amendment.



yes in fact it does say exactly that and the supreme court agreed


And the supreme court could just as easily say "Nevermind, that wasn't such a great idea."

The supreme court has upheld plenty of decisions that I think we can agree weren't so great. They are not, in my mind, the be-all end-all arbiter of right and wrong.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: joe666]
    #17514933 -

Fact is that the second amendment protects ALL of the other amendments.
Who if not ourselves can protect us from Tyrannical Government or foreign Intruders Or even robbers and highwaymen if we are out gunned and outnumbered.
To think otherwise is pure folly!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The right to a well regulated Militia and the right to keep and bear arms has kept free men free. and to get out gunned. Though likely. I would welcome friends and countrymen to be able to come to my aid at such a time. I do not know Why this is so hard for some of you to grasp. If it was not Provided for in most free countries laws we would not even be participating in this thread. And by any means within my power and ability I would defend anyone of you to the death even if it meant killing or dying. Though I do not own a gun currently it is most certainly within my rights to do so Be it an assault rifle or a 380 colt mustang. I still want the right to choose.
The second makes no implication as to assault rifles being cheating as it were, we have the right to defend ourselves by any means we see fit to ensure our survival.


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:kingcrankey: Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings :flipthebird: And all time Champion thread killer.:thatsayes:

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17514967 -

morrowasted said:
Quote:
it does not matter to me what your opinion is of what I need for self defense because it is not you that may come face to face with a cougar or a fucking bear

Are you saying you're a coward? How often do you fight bears? Could you not kill one with a shotgun? These are serious questions by the way


I see, so since I'm incapable of hand to hand combat against a bear I must be a coward

are you aware that a shotgun is actually a more powerful weapon than an AR-15?

Quote:
I just don't really see what you're so angry about. People are scared because there seem to be a lot of mass shootings lately, and they seem to involve a certain kind of weapon. I think it is legitimate to ask whether or not the citizenry should have legal access to those weapons, and the arguments being given thus far don't convince me either way.


I see, so because someone is afraid of something then it should be banned

I'm afraid of cougars and bears so we should ban them

Quote:
The fact that people use a certain kind of gun for sport shooting doesn't mean they "need" to have those guns. People in the UK seem to get along just fine without "needing" to sport shoot with exactly the kind of gun they want to sport shoot with.


I've already shown just the opposite in this thread, the violent crime rates
in the UK are rising, there's more and more gun crimes and citizens are
demanding that they once again be allowed access to guns for defense as
they've already seen first hand how quickly their liberties have been
eroding without access to those guns. cops in the UK are saying the citizens
should be armed and while 30 years ago when guns were far more common in the
UK the cops didnt carry pistols or wear bullet proof vests but today they
carry pistols, the wear bulletproof vest and often are geared up with MP5
machine guns... in a land that supposedly has such low gun crime

so why do the cops need guns there if there;s no guns?

really, it's safe in the UK?











sure looks super duper safe to me in the police state

Quote:
Should a citizen be allowed to buy a nuclear weapon? What if he wants to make a sport out of it?


you should really keep asking all these retarded questions so we all know
just how serious you are with your alleged indifference.


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17514973 -

morrowasted said:
Prisoner#1 said:
morrowasted said:
In any case, I'm not talking about taking away peoples' right to weaponry. Amendment two doesn't say "the citizens are guaranteed the right to have high powered semiautomatic assault rifles". A law could say that without violating the second amendment.



yes in fact it does say exactly that and the supreme court agreed


And the supreme court could just as easily say "Nevermind, that wasn't such a great idea."



but they didnt though did they...

Quote:
The supreme court has upheld plenty of decisions that I think we can agree weren't so great. They are not, in my mind, the be-all end-all arbiter of right and wrong.



like what?


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17515131 -

Hey pris WTF just saw the minigun clip yeah why would the secret service need that? Shit the collateral damage would be like Columbine,the movie theater and the grade school to the power of3  That fucker shoots like 6000 rounds a minute


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:kingcrankey: Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings :flipthebird: And all time Champion thread killer.:thatsayes:

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #17515182 -

r00tuuu123 said:
Hey pris WTF just saw the minigun clip yeah why would the secret service need that? Shit the collateral damage would be like Columbine,the movie theater and the grade school to the power of3  That fucker shoots like 6000 rounds a minute




NO ONE NEEDS GUNS CAPABLE OF SUCH DESTRUCTION!!!
SELF DEFENSE DOESNT REQUIRE A MINIGUN



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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: morrowasted]
    #17515312 -

morrowasted said:
I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but... self defense doesn't require AR15s. I don't see any issue with people having hunting rifles or pistols or even shotguns, but why does a citizen need a gun that gives them the potential to easily kill dozens of people in a matter of minutes? I can't imagine scenario where someone needs that kind of firepower for personal defense.


Bullshit. A gun is a gun. A skilled person can easily kill dozens of people in a matter of minutes with most guns, or a sword for that matter. Or a car.
If someone wants an AR15 for self dense, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to have one over a "hunting rifle"
There are plenty of hunting rifles and shotguns with more deadly power than an AR15. So why do you have a hardon on "assault weapons"?
I can think of a few dozen scenarios where an AR15 could be an applicable self defense weapon

morrowasted said:
I don't know that much about guns


Then why the fuck are you arguing with people that do? I don't know much about guns either, but I know what you are arguing is nonsense.


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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17516061 -

Prisoner#1 said:
r00tuuu123 said:
Hey pris WTF just saw the minigun clip yeah why would the secret service need that? Shit the collateral damage would be like Columbine,the movie theater and the grade school to the power of3  That fucker shoots like 6000 rounds a minute




NO ONE NEEDS GUNS CAPABLE OF SUCH DESTRUCTION!!!
SELF DEFENSE DOESNT REQUIRE A MINIGUN




But it would be hella fun to fire one.


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:kingcrankey: Please report me to a Mod for hurting your punk ass hippie feelings :flipthebird: And all time Champion thread killer.:thatsayes:

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17516584 -

Prisoner#1 said:
ok, so you're saying I should surrender my rights that protect me from illegal searches and seizures, that some government agency will put me at greater risk of being victimized by criminals seeking my legally owned guns



Where did I say that?  I'm saying you should be limited in what type of and how many guns/bullets you can buy or posess at a given time.  I believe you already are in some ways, so it is kind of a moot point, but I'm open for discussion on ways this could change.  More important to me is that those who produce weapons on an industrial scale should adknowledge the problems they cause and take a hit in their profits in order for people to better understand and prevent illegal gun use rather than give all their money to the NRA.
Quote:
so now the arabs are out to get you but the pro gun advocates say otherwise,
why are arabs even an issue? xenophobic much? maybe I want guns to protect
myself from gun grabbing liberals that will strip me of my guns and then the
rest of my rights such as the 4th amendment that you mentioned stripping me
of earlier... or maybe I need them because where I live there's bears,
cougars, bobcats, coyotes, rattle snakes and other critters in addition to a
recent issue regarding rabid foxes and coyotes or maybe I just want to shoot
some paper and aluminum and it's not of your business what I do as long as
I'm not doing it to the general public... if you want to give up your
rights, feel free to do so but dont try and take mine


I was just using the Arabs as an example of a group of people that has been purported to be out to get the American people, a reason given why Americans need guns.  If you think that you can have whatever reason for whatever you want because this is America dammit, fine, but you're living in a fantasy.  We never have and never will live in a totally free society, there is no such thing.

Your interpretation of a law is just that, your interpretation.  If more people decide that they don't want you to have an AR15 and you become violent or secretly hoard illegal weapons because of this, you will become an illegal gun owner.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: withoutawire]
    #17518462 -

withoutawire said:
Did the framers of the constitution envision internet, TV, or mass media?


So you're saying we DO have a right to a bazooka, since we have a right to freedom of speech and expression? I think it's pretty absurd to say that since the government can't arrest us for speaking out in papers, TV, or internet, that we have a right to all forms of weaponry.


Quote:
Banning semi automatic rifles solves that problem how?


It doesn't solve it, on it's own - it's part of a comprehensive solution. We need a comprehensive solution. Semi automatic weapons, which are best for mass damage, not for hunting or self defense, are one aspect. Non-automatic handguns are commonly used in crime, but they are good for self defense and I don't feel a need to take those away. We also need to make sure gun owners are responsible, and lower gun thefts so those illegally stolen weapons can't be used against others.
I want to do everything we can to save lives.

Quote:
Should we ban drugs because people are overdosing too?


We DO ban most drugs that have no purpose, but drugs don't kill OTHER people, only the user.

Quote:
Numbers don't lie.


No, they don't. And I wish we had more numbers, and that the gun lobby wouldn't shut up research and releasing of facts.

Quote:
You keep dissecting what I'm telling you as opinion to make yourself feel better about the fact that you are wrong.


You're free to believe that, but again, just saying "NO, YOU'RE WRONG" without saying what about is pretty pathetic.

Quote:
There is nothing more to this conversation because you refuse to change your position after I've proven to you with evidence that your completely wrong.


Show me where this has been done, where I made a statement and you proved me wrong with evidence.

Quote:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/foghorn/cbs-news-more-guns-in-california-fewer-bodies/#more-185565


And since you're proving causation not correlation, where are your sources on the other states and their relative increases/ decreases in guns and decreases/ increases in deaths? You aren't pretending that one state makes your argument, are you?

Quote:
Oh and I should reiterate the point that violent crime and murder has dropped nearly every year for decades and the amount of guns legally bought goes up by MILLIONS every year.


Right - violent crime and murder have dropped. Across the board. Are you going to prove causation, or just note correlation?

Quote:
So if you don't want to accept that more guns means less violence that's fine, but you are completely wrong to think that more guns is more crime.


Who said that more guns is causation of more crime?

Quote:
So you want to create a bunch of restrictive laws because you bought into a bunch of political scare tactics, and you won't even admit your wrong after it's been proven. Pathetic.


What? What political scare tactics? Where did you prove me wrong? Be specific.


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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Mafeki]
    #17518506 -

Prisoner#1 said:
for a country with so few guns in the hands of citizens they clearly have a serious issue with guns, they have just as many gun related killings as england who has more guns in private hands


According to what I read, England and wales has 0.07 homicide by firearm rate, whereas Japan only has 0.01.
And guns in private hands? Japan has 0.6 per 100 people, England has about 6 per 100 people. And we have 90 per 100. With Homicide by firearm rate of 2.97. Compared to England and Japan's 0.07 and 0.01.

Quote:
but then you want to say "gun violence" as opposed to looking at the real picture which is what happens after the guns are taken from civilians and that is that violence rises,


Um, how is that the real picture? I think the real picture we all are talking about is crime and deaths, and how can the US address it's problem.

Prisoner#1 said:
do you honestly believe that japan has six times the number of suicides as the UK each year?


I don't know who said this or who you are talking to here.

Quote:
clearly there is a need for guns here


No, that's not clear at all. all you said when it was mentioned how people SURVIVED whereas other people in other countries have not.

Quote:
since we can see that an increase in gun ownership drives down the rates of both violent crimes and gun crimes which is certainly shown via the statistics


Clearly show them: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Also, if you could, how many more firearms will Japan need to reduce their gun crime to 0.005? And how many more guns do we need, now at 90 per 100 people, to reduce ours?

And prisoner#1, I didn't know rocket propelled anti-tank weapons are considered the same as grenade launchers, and that we have a constitutionally protected right for both.

Edited by madafinil (01/08/13 05:51 PM)

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: madafinil]
    #17518562 -

yeah! kick his ass for the internet! you got this bro..

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Mafeki]
    #17518596 -

you're just butthurt cause you've been OWNED in this thread.          :cheersyoufuck:


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"A politician is like a baby's diaper, it should be changed often and for the same reason"-Coy Turner Sr.

"what is a weed, a plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered"--Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I'm sippin Hennessy, riding on my muthafucking enemies" -Meek Mill.


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