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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Patlal]
    #17499042 -

Patlal said:
Sorry, but Im right about this Kennesaw thing. Its one out a tens of thousands. It might be the same for 100 towns, but its still far from enough to repsent reality. Th reality is there are 3 murder per 100000 in the US and its many times higher than other G7 countries


cherry picking, want to limit shit to g7 countries. that's only 7. we've
already seen how the increase in violent crime and murder has been affected
in one of those g7 countries by the ban f guns, then the ban of knives and
the restrictions on air guns and now a ban on glasses in bars. one of the g20
countries has the highest violent crime and murder rates in the world, in
fact more than one exceeds the gun  murder rate of the US and all are very
restrictive regarding gun ownership

all the while we see the US crime rates falling and more guns in the hands
of civilians each year... why do we have 2+ million guns being sold in the
US each year with a drop in the crime rates


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17499215 -

Prisoner#1 said:
really, so show us those crime rates pre 1982

why is marietta's so much higher than the average of georgia and the nation?

how is it that in 25 years the population of Kennesaw grew 500% without the crime growing with it?

just because you cite a bunch of liberal bullshit, it doesnt make it accurate

how about coughing up the full 'study' complete with the data sources and
maybe listing those 26 countries they drew the data from


You understand that correlation is not causation, right?

If guns make us safer, than why isn't America safer than most other countries, namely Japan?


--------------------

Edited by Mafeki (01/04/13 11:02 PM)

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Mafeki]
    #17499309 -

Mafeki said:
You understand that correlation is not causation, right?

If guns make us safer, than why isn't America safer than most other countries, namely Japan?



japan is known for reporting murders as suicides when the killer kills himself,
hence they way above average suicide rates that japan sees


explain why the US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically are
dropping in the US when there's millions more guns being sold in the country
each year... why cant you do that?


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Xingu]
    #17499493 -

Xingu said:
moonrockmushy said:
I'm into putting arms manufacturers out of business and making it harder to access guns in the first place.


Good luck.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/12/19/3d-printing-startup-makerbot-cracks-down-on-printable-gun-designs/

This won't stop. Anyone with a relatively rudimentary understanding of firearms and engineering can design a gun and print it out on devices which will be commonplace before the end of the decade. Mental health is the far more important variable which governs these desires, and is a more financially effective way to address the issue. It's pretty hilarious to see people on a drug forum arguing that making something illegal will reduce its use. Shroomery of all places should realize how critical balanced neurochemistry is to having a mental state where you don't want to eviscerate people, regardless of the culture that surrounds everyone. Dogmatic control never solves anything, it may help temporarily, but what happens when you still have unstable sociopaths in the country when more advanced weapons become ubiquitous?

Taking away guns is just going to change how maladaptive behavior manifests, and I'm not too curious to see the new ways that people would choose to act out their rage.


I never said anything about banning guns altogether, I'm just saying that I would like to see them well regulated and monitored by community groups.  To me the people who are unwilling to discuss the idea that guns need to be controlled seem to be motivated by unrealistic paranoia and selfishness.

The problem to me is those who seek to profit from violence.  Likewise, I don't think that corporations should be allowed to profit off pushing addictive drugs on the population.  Its not that I want to ban drugs and guns, it is that I want the people to control the means of production and support eachother in educating in terms of safe use.  I do not like to see manipulative advertising, irresponsible glorification, and scare tactics used to control or promote dangerous things.  No groups based solely on shared financial interests should have a monopoly on drugs or guns like they currently do.

Conscientious people with the interests of the greater community should recognize danger and work together towards solutions.  I do realize that we live in the world we live in, but I also believe that positive change is possible if people work together rather than treat life as some sort of competition.  Unfortunately this clashes with the pervasive capitalist ideals in western society, but I believe that change is inevitable and I believe that people can learn to make decisions based on what is good for those around them.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17499543 -

I think we'd all like to live in a utopia :shrug:

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17499600 -

moonrockmushy said:
Xingu said:
moonrockmushy said:
I'm into putting arms manufacturers out of business and making it harder to access guns in the first place.


Good luck.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/12/19/3d-printing-startup-makerbot-cracks-down-on-printable-gun-designs/

This won't stop. Anyone with a relatively rudimentary understanding of firearms and engineering can design a gun and print it out on devices which will be commonplace before the end of the decade. Mental health is the far more important variable which governs these desires, and is a more financially effective way to address the issue. It's pretty hilarious to see people on a drug forum arguing that making something illegal will reduce its use. Shroomery of all places should realize how critical balanced neurochemistry is to having a mental state where you don't want to eviscerate people, regardless of the culture that surrounds everyone. Dogmatic control never solves anything, it may help temporarily, but what happens when you still have unstable sociopaths in the country when more advanced weapons become ubiquitous?

Taking away guns is just going to change how maladaptive behavior manifests, and I'm not too curious to see the new ways that people would choose to act out their rage.


I never said anything about banning guns altogether, I'm just saying that I would like to see them well regulated and monitored by community groups.  To me the people who are unwilling to discuss the idea that guns need to be controlled seem to be motivated by unrealistic paranoia and selfishness.

The problem to me is those who seek to profit from violence.  Likewise, I don't think that corporations should be allowed to profit off pushing addictive drugs on the population.  Its not that I want to ban drugs and guns, it is that I want the people to control the means of production and support eachother in educating in terms of safe use.  I do not like to see manipulative advertising, irresponsible glorification, and scare tactics used to control or promote dangerous things.  No groups based solely on shared financial interests should have a monopoly on drugs or guns like they currently do.

Conscientious people with the interests of the greater community should recognize danger and work together towards solutions.  I do realize that we live in the world we live in, but I also believe that positive change is possible if people work together rather than treat life as some sort of competition.  Unfortunately this clashes with the pervasive capitalist ideals in western society, but I believe that change is inevitable and I believe that people can learn to make decisions based on what is good for those around them.


"regulated and monitored by community groups"  I thought we already have guns laws?

What would these people in these community groups do?  Come to my house or something.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: moonrockmushy] * 1
    #17499715 -

moonrockmushy said:
I never said anything about banning guns altogether, I'm just saying that I would like to see them well regulated and monitored by community groups.



guns are well regulated and precisely which community groups should be monitoring them?


Quote:
To me the people who are unwilling to discuss the idea that guns need to be controlled seem to be motivated by unrealistic paranoia and selfishness.


really because I see it the same only it applies to those demanding more
laws, more reform, more controls, more bans, out of 300 million people, 9000
people per year die from a gunshot wounds. 27,000 people die from falling,
how about we put some safety measures in place such as padding on stairs,
replace stairs with slides. there are 39,000 deaths per year from
poisonings, how about we get rid of anything that could poison someone,
36,000 traffic fatalities per year and you're worried about a few firearm
related deaths, 37,000 drug related deaths per year, what better reason to
continue prohibition and tighten controls and increase penalties for people
that use drugs.

for some reason you dont seem so concerned about all these causes of death
even though some are at 4x the rate of gun related deaths, drugs are
frequently obtained illegally, loads of crime is centered around drugs and
unlike guns there's far fewer people using drugs, that's 9% of the US
population over the age of 12
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6001a12.htm
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/study-22-million-americans-use-illegal-drugs-3/




Quote:
The problem to me is those who seek to profit from violence.  Likewise, I don't think that corporations should be allowed to profit off pushing addictive drugs on the population.


so you're saying we should do something about sports like boxing, MMA, hockey,
football, etc because all are violence based profits for the industry, maybe
the sports industrial complex has grown way too large and is causing our children to become more violent

and you say that the people that dont want tighter regulations are paranoid
when it's people like yourself that respond to shit with knee jerk reactions
such as more legislation when legislation and regulation are already in place
clearly outlawing drugs has stopped people from using them just as outlawing
murder has sopped people from killing


alcohol kills more than 75,000 people per year. what should we do, ban it?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-linked-us-deaths-year/


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17499890 -

Ok, so we all agree that guns should be regulated and controlled.  Yes, they are already, but of course the system can be improved.  A study such as the one in the OP might provide ideas as to how we should change the way we treat guns as a society, it is not saying that we need to ban all guns, nobody here is saying that. 

What it comes down to for me is that the government which is supposed to represent our shared interests (the community) is hooked on corporate money through the NRA and other lobby groups.  This allows for the blame of American gun violence to be placed solely on mentally ill and desperate impoverished people rather than the system which has failed these individuals.  The picture we see is distorted.

I definitely think that we should consider the risks to children and all citizens from cars, sports, alcohol, and guns.  When someone seeks to profit off these things they have a motive to distort the system for their own benefit.  When a parent puts a young child into violent sports to satisfy their own ego I see a problem, the community should certainly step in in cases where people put their own emotional needs before the safety of children.

I think that alcohol should be treated exactly the same as all other drugs, not as they are now, but that is a whole 'nother issue.

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17500014 -

Prisoner#1 said:
japan is known for reporting murders as suicides when the killer kills himself,
hence they way above average suicide rates that japan sees


Really? So a Newtown style shooting in Japan would be reported as 17 suicides? Can you cite a source for that?

And you are purporting that if Japan had guns, these suicides would be less common? Can you cite a source?

Quote:
explain why the US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically are
dropping in the US when there's millions more guns being sold in the country
each year... why cant you do that?


There's many reasons that could contribute, but correlation won't mean causation: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13799616


--------------------

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: moonrockmushy] * 2
    #17500125 -

moonrockmushy said:
Ok, so we all agree that guns should be regulated and controlled.



no, we agree that liberals are paranoid jackasses that love to use any
excuse to ban something they dont like. I dont believe I should have any
hurdles to obtain a stinger missile other than the purchase price



 
Quote:
Yes, they are already, but of course the system can be improved.  A study such as the one in the OP might provide ideas as to how we should change the way we treat guns as a society, it is not saying that we need to ban all guns, nobody here is saying that.



OP didnt post a study, he posted a link to some crap compiled on the harvard
website that's claimed to be a study but appears to take a bunch of bullshit
from different surveys 

Quote:
What it comes down to for me is that the government which is supposed to represent our shared interests (the community) is hooked on corporate money through the NRA and other lobby groups.


really, so the NRA is bigger than the anti gun lobby who already had an
"'assault weapons" ban passed which proved to be ineffective at controlling
crime or stopping mass shootings, etc... BTW... did you know that those
shootings always seem to happen in a 'gun free zone', remember the Fort Hood
shooting? it was Clintoon's brilliant plan to remove side arms from
personnel on military bases, yes, an army base that's a gun free zone. seem
the shooter who showed many signs of mental illness wasnt removed from duty
and his fitness to own weapons never were called into question...  much like
this latest shooting and the aurora colorado shooting, now just where the
fuck was your community intervention

 
Quote:
This allows for the blame of American gun violence to be placed solely on mentally ill and desperate impoverished people rather than the system which has failed these individuals.  The picture we see is distorted.



the system didnt fail them, their friends, families, teachers, coworkers and
their communities failed them, the very people you're telling us should be
monitoring gun owners are the same ones that fail to do anything about a
psychopath that's hellbent on going on a shooting rampage

you see which picture is distorted, it's the paranoid liberal's picture

Quote:
I definitely think that we should consider the risks to children and all citizens from cars, sports, alcohol, and guns.  When someone seeks to profit off these things they have a motive to distort the system for their own benefit.  When a parent puts a young child into violent sports to satisfy their own ego I see a problem, the community should certainly step in in cases where people put their own emotional needs before the safety of children.


I see, so not only are you a gun banning liberal ut you want to restrict
everything, maybe you believe my kids need to sit inside all day and only
watch sesame street and barney or some shit... thanks but I'd like to pass
on your decision to increase the size and scope of government, having them
peering into everyone's bedroom to make sure they're having protected sex
and not watching an illegal football game just because somewhere in there,
someone may make a profit. I dont believe I'd be happy in your version of
tarditopia


Quote:
I think that alcohol should be treated exactly the same as all other drugs, not as they are now, but that is a whole 'nother issue.



I see, so if it's something you like then you're all for legalization or
what ever but if you oppose it then it should be banned or restricted just
because it doesnt mesh with your warped world view


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17500192 -

Quote:
out of 300 million people, 9000  people per year die from a gunshot wounds.



Way wrong. It is over 32,000. This number has been noted recently because it getting close to the number killed in auto accidents. The 9,000 number is just homicide and that is wrong too - it is actually over 11,000.


Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
japan is known for reporting murders as suicides when the killer kills himself,
hence they way above average suicide rates that japan sees


They average less than 20 gun related fatalities of any type (murder, suicide, accident).

Quote:
maybe you believe my kids need to sit inside all day and only
watch sesame street and barney or some shit... thanks but I'd like to pass
on your decision to increase the size and scope of government, having them
peering into everyone's bedroom to make sure they're having protected sex
and not watching an illegal football game just because somewhere in there,
someone may make a profit. I dont believe I'd be happy.


That's a bullshit argument. You think gun control is about protecting you from yourself - the nanny state. But, is about protecting us from you.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Mafeki]
    #17500193 -

Mafeki said:
Prisoner#1 said:
japan is known for reporting murders as suicides when the killer kills himself,
hence they way above average suicide rates that japan sees


Really? So a Newtown style shooting in Japan would be reported as 17 suicides? Can you cite a source for that?

And you are purporting that if Japan had guns, these suicides would be less common? Can you cite a source?


japan, a land that's virtually banned private gun ownership now seeks more
gun control, seems we're being led astray about the violence in japan

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/shooting-rampage-in-sasebo-japan-sparks-demand-for-gun-control/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Habikino_shooting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8345953.stm
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-142980-gangster-convicted-sentenced-to-death-in-japanese-mayor-shooting.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7257072.stm
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/news/23506
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/07/idUST252568
http://www.gunpolicy.org/jupgrade/firearms/news/26074



of course it's not as though you need a gun to commit mass murder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8208187/Man-arrested-after-stabbing-rampage-in-Japan.html
http://teleset1.blogspot.com/2012/03/japanese-woman-goes-on-stabbing-rampage.html



Quote:
Quote:
explain why the US crime rate in general and the murder rates specifically are
dropping in the US when there's millions more guns being sold in the country
each year... why cant you do that?


There's many reasons that could contribute, but correlation won't mean causation: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13799616





sure... the obama election, that's what did it...
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Guns-sales-on-the-rise-after-Obama-s-re-election-4065602.php
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/11/obama.gun.sales/

1991 guns sales spike after the LA/rodney king riots
http://www.marysvilleonline.net/articles/2013/01/02/news/doc50e485a052b7a147404246.txt
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-06-05/news/mn-775_1_gun-sales


but yeah... you just keep believing


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: koods]
    #17500207 -

koods said:
Quote:
out of 300 million people, 9000  people per year die from a gunshot wounds.



Way wrong. It is over 32,000. This number has been noted recently because it getting close to the number killed in auto accidents. The 9,000 number is just homicide and that is wrong too - it is actually over 11,000.


oh, I see, you now know more than the FBI who compiles the data taken from
all the police departments in the US


why not show us your 20 year old source for your claims


Quote:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
japan is known for reporting murders as suicides when the killer kills himself,
hence they way above average suicide rates that japan sees


They average less than 20 gun related fatalities of any type (murder, suicide, accident).


already been proven wrong

Quote:
That's a bullshit argument. You think gun control is about protecting you from yourself - the nanny state. But, is about protecting us from you.



who have I killed?
who have I threatened to kill?

start looking at the mass shooters, the violent criminals, you'll see that
the vast majority are liberals. I need a gun because liberals are so
determined to get guns out of my responsible hands that they'll kill dozens
of children to do it


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17500219 -

Pris, this is what freaks them out in Japan:
Quote:
The number of incidents involving gun violence between January and November this year was 54, up 10 from the last year


That is one week in one American city.

Give up the Japan angle. It is a total loser on your end.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: koods]
    #17500227 -

The CDC, which is responsible for compiling epidemiological stats, including homicide.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (01/05/13 03:40 AM)

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17500274 -

koods said:
The CDC, which is responsible for compiling epidemiological stats, including homicide.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm



HIGH VELOCITY LEAD POISONING ISNT AN EPIDEMIC

maybe the CDC needs to stick to curing the common cold since they are all about banning guns

from your link

Quote:
Mortality
All homicides

    Number of deaths: 16,799

Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 11,493

Source: Deaths: Final Data for 2009



and your post


koods said:
Quote:
out of 300 million people, 9000  people per year die from a gunshot wounds.



Way wrong. It is over 32,000. This number has been noted recently because it getting close to the number killed in auto accidents. The 9,000 number is just homicide and that is wrong too - it is actually over 11,000.





FBI shooting statistics... as I said, the crime/murder rates are falling
Quote:
In 2011, an estimated 14,612 persons were murdered in the United States.  This was a 0.7 percent decrease from the 2010 estimate, a 14.7 percent decline from the 2007 figure, and a 10.0 percent decrease from the 2002 estimate.



http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-7
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_14_crime_trends_by_metropolitan_and_nonmetropolitan_counties_by_population_group_2010-2011.xls

Quote:
Data collection   

Supplementary Homicide Data—The UCR Program’s supplementary homicide data provide information regarding the age, sex, and race of the murder victim and the offender; the type of weapon used; the relationship of the victim to the offender; and the circumstance surrounding the incident.  Law enforcement agencies are asked—but not required—to provide complete supplementary homicide data for each murder they report to the UCR Program.  Information gleaned from these supplementary homicide data can be viewed in the Expanded Homicide Data section.

Justifiable homicide—Certain willful killings must be reported as justifiable or excusable.  In the UCR Program, justifiable homicide is defined as and limited to:

    The killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.
    The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.

Because these killings are determined through law enforcement investigation to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and nonnegligent manslaughter.

More information about justifiable homicide is furnished in the Expanded Homicide Data section and in Expanded Homicide Data Table 14, “Justifiable Homicide by Weapon, Law Enforcement, 2007–2011,” and Expanded Homicide Data Table 15, “Justifiable Homicide by Weapon, Private Citizen, 2007–2011.”





if you add it up on table 14, the total of gun related murders, excluding
the justifiable homicides is 2955 actual gun related murders for 2011,
justifiable homicides were 2/3 of the 'gun homicides'

now how about you snowball that one for a bit
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_14_crime_trends_by_metropolitan_and_nonmetropolitan_counties_by_population_group_2010-2011.xls


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: koods]
    #17500300 -

koods said:
Pris, this is what freaks them out in Japan:
Quote:
The number of incidents involving gun violence between January and November this year was 54, up 10 from the last year


That is one week in one American city.

Give up the Japan angle. It is a total loser on your end.



which city, Chicago where they disallowed handgun ownership and concealed carry
or Los Angeles with the restrictive gun laws and 'must show legitimate need'
and you're still refused a gun permit unless of course you're the gun banning
Dianne Feinstein who insists on a concealment permit and now armed body guards
that are paid for with public funds...

crazy how that one works


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17500312 -

How's chicago's murder rate doing btw? Five hundred and how many homicides last year?


--------------------
:tigerbunny:

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: withoutawire]
    #17500326 -

withoutawire said:
How's chicago's murder rate doing btw? Five hundred and how many homicides last year?




513 murders in chicago in 2012, the supreme court shot down their gun ban but
the city dragged their feet on changing the laws, they recently had another
case where they were forced to change the laws to allow concealed carry but
they have about 140 more days to finalize it


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Revealing research about guns: Harvard Firearm Research [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17500338 -

Yeah and that was the 7th district that ruled on conceal carry.


Federal precedent is a bitch huh gun grabbers?


--------------------
:tigerbunny:

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