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real conservatives vote democrat.
    #1724591 -

conservatives like to say that their most important value is individual freedom/ liberty, 4th amendment style.

I think that this is a load of shit; all they care about is their expected tax cut. regardless,

in light of the patriot act, anti homosexuality and anti drug laws (all intrusive, 4th amendment violating bullshit) all being championed by republicans... it seems obvious that his liberty bit is simply an expedient excuse for cold hearted (and in the long run financially ruinious/ unsustainable) pocket book voting.



you bastards.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Malachi]
    #1724787 -

all they care about is their expected tax cut.

this is not all conservatives care about and perhaps they vote for lower taxes because they're not too blind to see that being able to spend your money the way you want to is a staple of freedom.

in light of the patriot act, anti homosexuality and anti drug laws (all intrusive, 4th amendment violating bullshit) all being championed by republicans...

sorry to burst your bubble, but the patriot act and the drug war have widespread support from both parties.

it seems obvious that his liberty bit is simply an expedient excuse for cold hearted (and in the long run financially ruinious/ unsustainable) pocket book voting.

?

real conservatives seek a smaller, less intrusive government. democrats (and sadly, many republicans nowadays) seek the opposite.

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: ]
    #1725404 -


Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:34 AM)

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Xibalba]
    #1727542 -

Just an observation...

and quite a perceptive one at that :smile:

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Malachi]
    #1728791 -

It surprises me that most Libertarians vote Republican. Because you've nailed it; Republicans don't give a shit about less Government, less spending, or more freedom.


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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1729067 -

Cornholio said:
Republicans don't give a shit about less Government, less spending, or more freedom.


Nor do democrats.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: z@z.com]
    #1729106 -

z@z.com said:
Cornholio said:
Republicans don't give a shit about less Government, less spending, or more freedom.


Nor do democrats.

The difference is that Republicans claim those things are important to them, when they're clearly not!


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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1729765 -

True. It really pisses me off, but the republicans seem like the lesser of two evils at this point to me as the democrats have moved so far left they are about to fall off the edge of the world.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: z@z.com]
    #1729790 -

Don't you mean the republicans have moved so far to the right they fell off the edge of the world?

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: ]
    #1729839 -

Exactly. One of Clinton's biggest criticisms from the Dems is that he was too centrist.


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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: ]
    #1729843 -

the point is that neither dems nor reps are what they claim to be. so disregarding "claims", I just saying that dems are more "conservative" than reps are.

social welfare programs and state sponsored higher education are far more "conservative" (I can't stress his enough: read john locke! read adam smith!) than morality legislation.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: z@z.com]
    #1729985 -

z@z.com said:
True. It really pisses me off, but the republicans seem like the lesser of two evils at this point to me as the democrats have moved so far left they are about to fall off the edge of the world.


What, you mean the "Republican Lite" party? Give me a break!


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Malachi]
    #1730129 -

social welfare programs and state sponsored higher education are far more "conservative" (I can't stress his enough: read john locke! read adam smith!)

:wtf:

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: ]
    #1733284 -

your "wtf"? = ignorance of political philosophy. ayn rand and alan greenspan are the crazy founders of modern hardcore laissez-faire philosophy, whereas "traditional" liberal democrats (no, not the party....) have always stressed teh need for informed consent, an economic bottom protection (welfare), etc, etc.

see, of fucknut neo cons actually understood anything about... well, anything, especially what it means to be "conservative", then they wouldn't be neo cons. unless of course they actually want to promote a political philosophy outside of a liberal democracy, which is not what they espouse. (why would they, then everyone could clearly see that calling yourself a "conservative" is really just a way to undermine traditional western values, i.e. people would see that neo cons are fucking nazis.)

diediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediedie
diediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediedie
diediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediedie
diediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediedie

*edited by pinky so that the "diediediedie...." no longer stretched the entire thread to the width of a 42 inch monitor. Please show some consideration in future. Thanks.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Edited by pinksharkmark (07/21/03 05:49 AM)

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Malachi]
    #1734222 -

Malachi writes:

...whereas "traditional" liberal democrats (no, not the party....) have always stressed teh need for informed consent, an economic bottom protection (welfare), etc, etc.

Umm... how long ago do they have to have lived to be considered "traditional" in your eyes? Are you saying Locke or Smith or any of the other Classical Liberals of the Enlightenment period advocated that government seize personal property from individuals for the purpose of income redistribution? I admit I haven't read every single word written by Locke or Smith, but I'm pretty sure I would have remembered them saying such a thing. Sources, please.

pinky


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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Phred]
    #1734745 -

because that's what welfare is, right? gov't goons with robin hood complexes go around taking rich peoples tv's and give them to those ungrateful poor people (or the mud people as neo cons like to call them).

"Umm... how long ago do they have to have lived to be considered "traditional" in your eyes?"

it's not how long ago they lived, it's that our system of gov't and economics are based on their philosophies, hence a "traditionalist" or "conservative" ought to be defending liberalism.

read wealth of nations, or just read my philosophy teachers book about adam smith.

http://www.und.edu/instruct/weinstei/on%20adam%20smith%20advetisement.htm


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Malachi]
    #1734978 -

Why do people feel the need to "be" conservative, liberal, republican etc...? Politics is all dirty, and when you have a government established the differences between liber, and conservative matter very little....as if one would be better than another....
Its all the same shit different piles, people need to look beyond what these parties say they support and address the issues from a neutral disposition....why is that so hard? I don't consider myself anything liberal, left wing right wing.....nothing.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1734987 -

Yeah, some great conservatives we have in charge, turning a 90 billion surplus into a 260 billion dollar deficit...


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The Unfunny Truth About Scientology

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: GringoLoco]
    #1735566 -

exactly. it is all double newspeak, but that doesn't mean that we have to throw our hands up and say fuck it. we can still choose the lesser of two evils, and whether you're a conservative or a a liberal or neither, you'd still be altruistic by voting for the democratic party.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Malachi]
    #1735585 -

i'm still waiting on where exactly locke or smith said that forcefully redistributing wealth was a good idea.

and i think it would be more altruistic to give some time or money to a worthwhile charity than to try to elect someone who will force others to do it for you.

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