juuiez said:
Macavity224 said:
ahmcarri, do you have any evidence that meditation could get out of control and have negative effects? I'm not trying to be a wiseass...genuinely curious, because I've never heard of stuff like that happening with meditation.
actually yes.
http://www.brighthub.com/health/alternative-medicine/articles/63006.aspx
http://trancenet.net/research/2000perezdealbeniz.shtml
meditation CAN make things worse for a schizophrenic, just like a psychedelic can, because after all you are exploring the subconscious, and because you are tapping into it, you are opening doors in your mind whether it be from psychedelics, mediation, astral projection, obe's etc.
a schizophrenic person has a very vragile mind state and their subconscious should not be tapped into unless they know what they are doing/where they are going in their minds. And if they know they can handle the experience/ the consequence from tapping into and opening a specific part of their mind.
meditation is just a much milder form than psychedelics of tapping into your subconscious, and it does open doors, such as when you get "enlightened". you are on a higher level of functioning, an altered sate of consciousness when you are "enlightened", some schizophrenics might not be able to handle the proccess of their mind elevating onto a different level of functioning because of their fragile mind state.
i dont think schizophrenics could handle being on any elevated state of consciousness just because that could take them to a really bad place in their minds by opening that "door".
however, i dont mean schizophrenics shouldnt practice meditation, because it may help them IF they know what they are getting themselves into /what doors they are opening with it. meditation is pretty safe because it's such a light form of tapping into your subconsciouss and its also controlled so if you feel you've gone too far or a place you shouldn't of in your mind, you can always stop.
that being said, i have a theory that if a schizophrenic were to practice tapping into their sunconscious and "safely" opening those doors then eventually they could build up to psychedelic use. As by that point it shouldnt have negative consiquences on their psyche if they have explored their subconscious through other means before and know it in and out by safely opening all of those "doors". They would need to start light though, first exploring themselves through mediation as that is the safest, then astral projection, obe's, lucid dreaming etc. gradually strengthening themselves for psychedelics. like a step by step psychological exploration/strengething proccess. it's essential to start at mediation though because it's "guided", lack of a better word, as in you're "guiding" your self through the proccess. (i.e. you can stop whenever you feel you've gone too far in your psyche)
i think this is the only way a scizhophrenic person could ever prepare themselves for a psychedelic experience w/o any harmful effects comming out of it. they shouldn't just straight jump into the psychedelic because that isn't "guided", like mediation, you can't stop if you've gone too far into your psyche. the same can be said for astral projection, obe's, lucid dreaming etc. if you jump into those straight away with a fragile mind set you can probably cause more harm than good, even if you can control the experience by how far your mind dwells into it, unlike with psychedelics. thats why it's crucial to take it a step at time and start with the most "controlled" method of exploring yourself, meditation. Slowly and safely moving furhter and further in your exploration of yourself through astral projection, obe's, lucid dreaming etc ultimately building you self up for psychedelic use.
just my 2 cents, srry its so long, just wanted to put all my thoughts down. but thats what i would reccomend for the op if he really wants to trip
btw i stopped reading at page 2 so idk if this has been mentioned or if the topic changed or anything so yehh>.>
That first link was a complete pile of shit, stacked onto another pile of shit, stacked onto another...well, you get it.
I'm sorry, not to come off as an asshole, but the reasoning they offer is naive, close to being childish...to say the LEAST.
Quote:
Sense of Failure
For some people, the urge to meditate is strong. Despite investing much time to learn how to do it correctly, they fail. Therefore, the person grieves the loss and feels worthless.
LMFAO, do I need to say ANYTHING about their reasoning? It's like they are describing a child who was not able to put together his new set of Legos....ridiculous. We are talking about adults here, who are most likely able to move on with their life without "grieving" (oh man, this is comedy) at their inability to meditate. The true seeker will always find a way to make meditation work for him.
Quote:
Covering Up the Problem
Louis Nordstrom, a professor and Zen master, was abandoned by his mother in childhood. To help deal with his pain, he would meditate. Although he found comfort through meditation, he realized he was continually going through bouts of depression. He discovered through therapy that meditation was only covering up his pain (detaching himself from his emotions and others) and not treating it, thus leading to the bouts of depression.
Depressions are normal when you start out on a spiritual path. With meditation comes so-called 'inner-knowledge'. However, knowledge that is unknown or uncovered is frightening to people, just like the random sounds out the bushes in the dark forests are frightening. It might just a be a squirrel, but it will still scare most people. To put it short, when you start to experience "supernatural" phenomena, or things out of the "ordinary", one it very likely to get scared....not because these experiences are dangerous, but because they are "unknown". They can't be explained "rationally".
Anyways, the mere fact that ONE case of a person dealing with depression is mentioned as a reference makes this whole article that much more ridiculous.
Quote:
Detachment Techniques
Detachment techniques are meant for nuns and monks, meaning they take a vow of celibacy, poverty and obedience. People practicing some types of meditation (such as Buddhist or Hindu teachings) have become depressed because they have been cut off from life.
Most (if not all) monks and nuns CHOSE to be monks and nuns. They chose a life of poverty and obedience, because they most likely didn't see how money would make them happy.
Now, celibacy is a different subject, since it is a basic human urge/need...but, again, these monks and nuns CHOSE to be just that, and knew what the "price" was to pay.
I don't think I need to go on.
And btw, I didn't bother with the second article. Just the fact that you brought these articles up in a serious manner leads me to believe that you yourself haven't actually meditated and don't know what you are talking about. Just the same ol' "oh, I'll just post some links I found online..that'll make my case.." If you HAVE meditated and STILL chose to post these articles...well, I see it hasn't helped YOU much.
Whichever the case, these articles aren't worth a read for a serious discussion on meditation.
--------------------
“Science is always discovering odd scraps of magical wisdom and making a tremendous fuss about its cleverness.” ~ Aleister Crowley
“Self-importance is our greatest enemy. Think about it - what weakens us, is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellowmen. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.” ~ Don Juan Matus
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