Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 |  [ show all ]
How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism?
    #13573234 -

See title.

Quote:
The newly discovered microbe, strain GFAJ-1, is a member of a common group of bacteria, the Gammaproteobacteria. In the laboratory, the researchers successfully grew microbes from the lake on a diet that was very lean on phosphorus, but included generous helpings of arsenic. When researchers removed the phosphorus and replaced it with arsenic the microbes continued to grow. Subsequent analyses indicated that the arsenic was being used to produce the building blocks of new GFAJ-1 cells.

...


"The idea of alternative biochemistries for life is common in science fiction," said Carl Pilcher, director of the NASA Astrobiology Institute at the agency's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif. "Until now a life form using arsenic as a building block was only theoretical, but now we know such life exists in Mono Lake." 


http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/astrobiology_toxic_chemical.html


From a christian creationist standpoint: does this change anything?

How about from a generic "god created life"-style creationism?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13573252 -

Being a part of creation I'd say it fits in just fine and expands our direct knowledge of creations abilities a little bit farther. But I really don't know what creationism proposes aside from a creator.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13573273 -

i don't see any connection to creationism at all :shrug: .. thread would be better off without bashing and moved to science forum.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13573301 -

Quote:
johnm214 said:How about from a generic "god created life"-style creationism?


"God created life in many forms, including some based on arsenic. Our god is a powerful god".

How did you think it would fit into the plan?


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: moi]
    #13573354 -

Doc_T said:
johnm214 said:How about from a generic "god created life"-style creationism?


"God created life in many forms, including some based on arsenic. Our god is a powerful god".

How did you think it would fit into the plan?



I don't know.  It certainly changes our understanding of what's out there.

I agree your explanation is fine for justification, I just wonder what the implications might be said to be. To me, it seems this is a pretty hard and fast break from the rest of the life known.  Odd metals are incorporated all the time, but not like this, with purported complete replacement of the fundamental mechanisms of metabolism shared by all life.

For the same reason I understand scientists to wonder why the observed matter greatly outnumbers antimatter, I would imagine a similar logic, imperfect analogy as it may be, would wonder why this one life form should be so radically different in its pursuit of the same types of metabolic processes with the same general types of machinery?  Does this suppose there should be much more diversity to life than we know of?

Quote:
moi said:
i don't see any connection to creationism at all :shrug: .. thread would be better off without bashing and moved to science forum.



Hmm, what do you mean 'better off without bashing'?  I don't think anyone's been mean or anything here?

Anyways, thanks for the suggestion, but this isn't a scientific question- its speculation about the religious and deistic connotations of this discovery.  I'm sure others will make a more suitable thread for scientific discusion in that thread- with some links to the scientific info for consideration.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13573439 -

I suppose it opens up possibilities for extraterrestrial life in areas we previously would have considered barren.
But still, "God is great and all-powerful, His reach is infinite".

I just don't see this being a big deal for religions.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: Doc_T]
    #13573588 -

What if God was an alien who just goes around and play with DNA.. big deal, could be possible, why is everyone making such a fuzz about it?

The funny thing is, that people claim this playing with DNA is impossible, yet it is the very purpose of science itself. The very purpose of science is to intelligently design our DNA, yet at the same time we claim intelligent design is not possible. Who can spot the contradiction?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: Doc_T]
    #13573596 -

I dont know why you posted this here and not in the science section



On topic, i wonder how long will it take until its genome is fully sequenced!

Also, what do you think would happen to a phage trying to infect this new bacteria? will it be able to complete its lytic cycle?

Here is the link the article from science for a more complete explanation

Article from science


--------------------


"Homo sum ; humani nihil a me alienum puto"

Edited by Amphibolos (12/02/10 04:29 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13573637 -

From a creationists perspective it probably means that life can do almost anything.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13574664 -

I have not yet come across the word 'phosphorus' in the Bible.. I do not see your argument.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13574725 -

Diaboleros said:
The funny thing is, that people claim this playing with DNA is impossible, yet it is the very purpose of science itself. The very purpose of science is to intelligently design our DNA, yet at the same time we claim intelligent design is not possible.

:huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: Poid]
    #13575271 -

Nature operates in a deeply intricate oneness far superior to our current human intellect.

It would be a great benefit to earth, and as an ecosystem that is far outreaching, to all, if we were to join this oneness of perfect sustainability.

Balance and harmony.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: retrospect]
    #13575551 -

It's impressive but not entirely bananas.  Arsenic and phosphorous are right next to each other on the periodic table.  These bacteria are using arsenic in place of phosphorous is all.

We can do this too but we die.  They don't.

IMO It's easy to see how with an increasing level of arsenic the bacteria which could handle it survived.  Add to that billions of generations of selective breeding and it seems perfectly plausible to me.

I'd imagine in human populations some people have naturally higher tolerances to arsenic.  Find em and breed them for a few million years and see what happens. :smile:

**As for OP- No impact IMO.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: Poid]
    #13575964 -

Poid said:
Diaboleros said:
The funny thing is, that people claim this playing with DNA is impossible, yet it is the very purpose of science itself. The very purpose of science is to intelligently design our DNA, yet at the same time we claim intelligent design is not possible.

:huxleyfacepalm:


Facepalming is not a valid logic argument. I think a monkey would react exactly the same way you would. How about you try again, but this time, with actual words and sentences? You think you can do that? Or do I need to call your mommy to hold your hand from keeping it from spastic facepalming all the time?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: Cups]
    #13576970 -

Amphibolos said:
I dont know why you posted this here and not in the science section



If you read my explanation to that question you might figure it out.  This issue has nothing to do with science, its an issue of deistic creationism.  Unless you have some revolutionary contribution to share as to how this issue might be approached scientifically, i.e. how its testable or something, then I fail to see reason for your incredulity.

Quote:
On topic, i wonder how long will it take until its genome is fully sequenced!

Also, what do you think would happen to a phage trying to infect this new bacteria? will it be able to complete its lytic cycle?



That's an interesting question for sure.  In the presence of phosphorus I wouldn't seen any particular reason why it couldn't, though obviously its enzymes would need to be compatible with the environment.  I guess it begs the question of how the incorporation of phosphorus vs arsenic is regulated and whether a phage genome incompatible with arsenic for phosphorus substitutions would still be able to have functional enzymes produced.  Interesting question.



WScott said:
I have not yet come across the word 'phosphorus' in the Bible.. I do not see your argument.



What argument have you identified that you don't understand?  I asked questions given a premise.

I don't understand what the presence of phosphorus in the bible has to do with this- even the first question.  As to the second, it seems completely irrelevant.

Cups said:
It's impressive but not entirely bananas.  Arsenic and phosphorous are right next to each other on the periodic table.  These bacteria are using arsenic in place of phosphorous is all.

We can do this too but we die.  They don't.

IMO It's easy to see how with an increasing level of arsenic the bacteria which could handle it survived.  Add to that billions of generations of selective breeding and it seems perfectly plausible to me.

I'd imagine in human populations some people have naturally higher tolerances to arsenic.  Find em and breed them for a few million years and see what happens. :smile:

**As for OP- No impact IMO.



Wouldn't the presence of arsenic-incorporating bacteria suggest the christian god likely created several similar lifeforms incorporating uncommon substitutions?  Given the way this god is represented as very human-like, with emotions and so forth, it would seem to me it suggests other similar life forms are out there.

As for a generic creationist view, I would think it hard to understand how such an organism would exist here as opposed to elsewhere or with this particular modification being unique.  In a similar vein as the evolutionary speculation, I'd think it suggestive of more out there.

It certainly is difficult to understand how this could be the only example of this phenomena.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13577254 -

is it more probable that it is the only example?


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13577322 -

Quote:
suggest the christian god likely


No, past precedent does not indicate future behavior.

And why is this about christianity and the Bible? There ARE other religions, you guys.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13577362 -

I see no reason why this would cause any disagreement with any religion.

The point of this whole "discussion" is still eluding some people.

You can't honestly expect all life in the universe to be oxygen friendly, or to be humanoid.

I think this should be in the science or philosophy forum :shrug:

Edited by TheWolf (12/03/10 04:25 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: TheWolf]
    #13577432 -

Doc_T said:
Quote:
suggest the christian god likely


No, past precedent does not indicate future behavior.


I don't understand the relevance.  If he made the posited other life forms then the future doesn't matter. I'm discussing the moment of creation- the future's not of obvious relevance.


Quote:
And why is this about christianity and the Bible? There ARE other religions, you guys.


I asked about chrsitian creationism specifically because that is what I am most familiar with.  Further, it is what is more relevant to my daily life and culture.  Finally, the Christian God has some curious personality traits that make him seem like a person more than you might expect an omniscent entity to be.  Hence, the inductive potential seems greater than a more unfamiliar abstract type of deity that doesn't have human emotions.


TheWolf said:
I see no reason why this would cause any disagreement with any religion.


Neither do I.  I do, however, struggle to understand why this point continues to be made over and over.  I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Quote:
The point of this whole "discussion" is still eluding some people.

You can't honestly expect all life in the universe to be oxygen friendly, or to be humanoid.


What does oxygen have to do with anything?

What does humanoid life have to do with anything?

I don't understand your point.

Quote:
I think this should be in the science or philosophy forum :shrug:


Ok, well thanks for the input.  If you have some reason contrary to those I gave, feel free to throw it out there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How do the newly discovered arsenic-using organisms fit into god's plan/creationism? [Re: johnm214]
    #13577465 -

I was saying that existence of arsenic-bacteria in a lake doesn't imply there are more in other lakes. Jehovash is capricious.

And if I'm reading MSNBC's article right, these bacteria were as much created by humans as discovered by them.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale

General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Heaven is coming to earth *the sequel*
( 1 2 3 4 ... 51 52 )		 zorbman 184,606 1,020 03/15/18 08:53 PM
by BrendanFlock
* Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 Blastrid 34,923 107 12/08/16 03:45 AM
by Fractaliopsybe
* Mayan Galactic Signature DB.....
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 vampirism 40,614 112 04/21/05 06:06 AM
by emptywisdom
* Dream Thread
( 1 2 3 4 ... 12 13 )		 ShroomismM 53,148 253 05/24/24 05:39 AM
by Buster_Brown
* public apology tryptonite 324 1 03/03/18 10:28 AM
by Buckthorn
* Christ
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )		 flickedbic 6,084 93 03/04/18 07:19 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Om Alaipzi - A Spirit Song set to Music AsanteM 451 6 03/03/18 07:18 PM
by Asante
* Are there Aeons and Archons? akira_akuma 878 5 03/03/18 02:29 PM
by thealienthatategod

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Asante, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, Northerner, DividedQuantum
2,695 topic views. 1 members, 5 guests and 16 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.041 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 19 queries.